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The rule isn't just to prove ownership. Its to present an unadulterated copy of the rules you are using. GM's don't own everything so you need to bring proof that that is how that stuff your using works.
Its a lil of both. Fact checking is easier to do on a smartphone than through a book search anyway.
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I think they should create a system like with the chronicle sheets/boons from the Pathfinder Tales Novels, can be made/checked/verified by players and GMs to help track what books they own.
Of course, you would still have to have to bring in your books with you for the initial signing to take place.
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The rules need to be available to the GM. The GM can't be expected to know your character, and needs to be able to check the book if they want to. If there was a way of 1) proving ownership, so Paizo gets the marketing out of PfS that they want, and 2) have the rules easily available for the GM to reference, that would be great. Unfortunately, the only way they've come up with to do this is to have the player bring the rules.
Some combination of a sign-off by a VO on ownership, coupled with the allowance of an online rules source at the table, would fix the issue - but that's the probelm. Paizo's PRD doesn't contain Golarion materials; the two major online PRDs have errors since they can't be official; Hero Labs also has errors. So you really need a Paizo document with the rules, which only exists in the actual book PDFs.
I realize it's an issue, but there is no solution that addresses both the "too many books" issue and Paizo's needs for the campaign.
+1
The reason for owning the material is Paizo's marketing.
The reason for bringing it with is to be able to make knowledgeable rules adjudications at the table when some things interact strangely, or to make sure that both the player and the GM understand how some of the odder results can come up.
As a GM, sure, I have a lot of the material in my own PDF library, but I don't, usually, have the time in hand to break the game to stop, start up my hot spot, turn on my tablet, and pull up the rulebook/splat book source during the game. And that is assuming the player actually has marked where the item/rule is from.
The down side, as I am sure you know, is trying to carry a ton of stuff on public transportation. I have to do it, too. I use a rolling backpack, which is falling apart, to carry my CRB & Bestiary, my dice box, my folios, my PC binders, my buff/status card decks, flip-mat(s), combat pads, wet & dry erase markers, scenario printouts with chronicles, etc.,, etc. etc. Getting it on and off the bus is a pain, and I can't, usually, make it to the upper deck of the double decker buses, so I have to stay on the overcrowded ground level of the bus for the entire ride. And that is with most of my Pathfinder books in PDF form.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I've considered the VO sign off idea too, but the big question I keep coming back to is "How does the VO know they actually own the book? What if I just borrowed it from a friend and got the VO to sign off on it?" I realize not many people are going to do this, but I'm sure it's an issue that's been brought up. I do think this is probably the easiest solution. If you have a VO near you.
As for finding rules on-line, the Archives of Nethys does a good job of having all the character options and a label of what's PFS legal. Though it does lack specific rules, but that wasn't the intention of the site.
Regardless of what campaign leadership decides to do, there's always going to be cheaters or people who don't thoroughly enforce rules.
I always liked the idea to somehow mark the book, maybe writing something with a golden pen inside the cover (maybe adding some sort of serial no.) of course etching it with a branding iron, jagged bone, adamantine scalpel, bloody handprint (the blood of the player, not mine).....
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I always liked the idea to somehow mark the book, maybe writing something with a golden pen inside the cover (maybe adding some sort of serial no.) of course etching it with a branding iron, jagged bone, adamantine scalpel, bloody handprint (the blood of the player, not mine).....I've considered the VO sign off idea too, but the big question I keep coming back to is "How does the VO know they actually own the book? What if I just borrowed it from a friend and got the VO to sign off on it?" I realize not many people are going to do this, but I'm sure it's an issue that's been brought up. I do think this is probably the easiest solution. If you have a VO near you.
As for finding rules on-line, the Archives of Nethys does a good job of having all the character options and a label of what's PFS legal. Though it does lack specific rules, but that wasn't the intention of the site.
Regardless of what campaign leadership decides to do, there's always going to be cheaters or people who don't thoroughly enforce rules.
I understand the arguments against (and there have been a number of them), but at least for hardbacks including a code for a PDF copy would be a huge help for my back and wallet. For me it would allow me to support my FLGS and still be able to print out the relevant pages for my character. (Honestly I often forget the pages and have to bring out the computer anyway, but still)
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The worst I have ever seen is people being told to "make sure you bring it next time." And that's only from those few times anyone actually checked.
I have seen "play a different character or a pregen" - more than once. I might have even said it a few times (usually when people didn't have the book for their class - especially for classes I haven't played like swashbucklers, gunfighters, bloodragers)
No one answered my question...Now, you might labor to get the rule changed, or find some way to help yourself and others in that situation, but frankly that is not the question you asked.
Actually, the first three posts did indeed not answer my question, so yes, it was about the question I asked. I made the post you quoted REALLY early in the thread. Now that I received the answer, we are having a discussion about a possible fix. Seems pretty fair to me.
The rules need to be available to the GM. The GM can't be expected to know your character, and needs to be able to check the book if they want to.
I already addressed that! As I said, every session, without fail, someone has internet. Problem solved(mostly).
I list every source I use on my character sheets, and as well as the exact pages of confusing or dubious abilities(see the Misfortune example). If that + internet isn't good enough, I don't know what is. This wouldn't even be a problem if player weren't forbidden to bring print-outs because of "marketing".
The reason for bringing it with is to be able to make knowledgeable rules adjudications at the table when some things interact strangely, or to make sure that both the player and the GM understand how some of the odder results can come up.
This is NOT what I'm asking! I've been playing PFS for YEARS, and I've ran a few sessions myself you know. I understand all the whys and hows. I'm looking for an ALTERNATIVE to the rule.
Unfortunately, the only way they've come up with to do this is to have the player bring the rules.
I bought books, not PDFs. Now I'm being told that PDFs are pretty much strictly better for use in PFS. Does that seem right to you? Should I be REGRETTING the fact that I bought books from my LGS or Paizo instead of PDFs? That's what you're implying.
If that IS what you think should happen, I have all sorts of witty sarcastic remarks prepared.It's easy to provide an unadulterated copy of the rules. That's a photocopy.
What's being argued here is proof of ownership. Proof of ownership is a way for Paizo to increase sales, but at some point it becomes a turn-off for people like the OP who have bought hard copy and do not want to lug around tons of books or buy duplicate pdf's. Turn too many people off that way and they start to leave the game.
^This. This so much. I don't like the rule, but I'm fine with it existing. Being so anal and inflexible about its enforcement is what's biting my ass.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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The rules need to be available to the GM. The GM can't be expected to know your character, and needs to be able to check the book if they want to.I already addressed that! As I said, every session, without fail, someone has internet. Problem solved(mostly).
Not really. I bring paper copies to run games at cons, because too many times I have lost internet, or been forced to fall back on my phone which makes things tedious.
And many abilities are not on the internet in a reliable form.
The Paizo PRD is incomplete
d20pfsrd changes names and sometimes edits things to make the "clearer"
archive of nethys has copy paste errors. (He is pretty good at fixing them, but I still find them from time to time.)
herolab occasionally just rewrites the rules.
I'm looking for an ALTERNATIVE to the rule.
From the few times Mike or John have commented, it sounds like they would be interested in an alternative. This board is full of posts from people looking for alternatives. No one has come up with a decent one yet.
I bought books, not PDFs. Now I'm being told that PDFs are pretty much strictly better for use in PFS. Does that seem right to you?
From a strictly technological standpoint, yes, pdfs are better. They are more compact, portable, and cost less. They are watermarked and uniquely identifyable. I would like it if that were not the case and I could buy cheap superportable hardbacks from my LGS. I would like it even better if I could buy pdfs through my local game store. Instead I buy the PDFs and spend the $30 I save renting locker space at my local game store. (So that is probably a higher profit margin form my LGS anyway)
But all the wanting to support your local game store in the world does not change the fact that technologically, pdfs are more portable and more uniquely identifiable than hardcovers. Sadly, nor will witty sarcastic remarks, so you might as well save them.
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It isn't that no one has come up with a decent alternative, is coming up with one that is feasible. One that protects Paizo's IP, the LFGS, PFS, and the consumer.
Check around, you'll see discussions about photocopies, using library books, sign-off sheets, putting in a special code for a PDF copy when you purchase a hardcopy book, etc.
On PDFs vs hardcopies:
PDFs have many advantages.
You can use them on any device you have a PDF reader on.
Paizo updates them in your Downloads area when they do another printing of the hardcover.
If you lose your device with the PDF on it, you can download a fresh copy.
Hardcopies have a few advantages of their own.
Easier to make notes in the margins when needed.
Can get them signed by developers and such like a fanboy. ;) (doesn't help if someone takes it, though)
They can be used to swat a fly or other irritant.
Sorry, getting silly there.
As mentioned, the online resources have their own limitations.
Paizo's PRD is, mainly, for non-Golarion materials
D20PFSRD has anything potentially in the IP area renamed. And they sometimes include questionable material from Paizo posts that is not official.
Archives of Nethys suffers from being a one-man operation. Errors sneak in, and he needs someone else to catch them, due to "I see what I expect to see." syndrome.
And, of course, things can change on PFS legality every time the AR gets updated. Removals, especially, have been known to sneak under the radar. I think there was a removal of some dinosaurs form AC legality that didn't get noticed for months, for example.
For the FLGS, I bought my 6th printing CRB and 4th(?) printing Bestiary there. But, mainly, I buy other stuff there, pawn boxes and sets, flip-maps, map packs, wet erase markers, and consumables (food and drink, real world style). Pathfinder sales will never equal MtG, for example. $16 per player for a tourney, with 30-40 players? That would be a lot more than a CRB or two, and that is just one Friday Night Magic event, not even counting card pack sales...
I bought books, not PDFs. Now I'm being told that PDFs are pretty much strictly better for use in PFS. Does that seem right to you?From a strictly technological standpoint, yes, pdfs are better. They are more compact, portable, and cost less. They are watermarked and uniquely identifyable. I would like it if that were not the case and I could buy cheap superportable hardbacks from my LGS. I would like it even better if I could buy pdfs through my local game store. Instead I buy the PDFs and spend the $30 I save renting locker space at my local game store. (So that is probably a higher profit margin form my LGS anyway)
But all the wanting to support your local game store in the world does not change the fact that technologically, pdfs are more portable and more uniquely identifiable than hardcovers. Sadly, nor will witty sarcastic remarks, so you might as well save them.
My comment was referring to the knowledge upon purchase that PDFs would be undebatably better for PFS specifically, not better in general.
E.G. Besides Starred GMs, who the f*** is going to think upon purchase "I better buy all my books as PDFs because otherwise some vestigial non-gameplay related rule in PFS will screw me over. This realization will definitely motivate me to not use the store-credit I have for my book store or any of the other reasons one might prefer to purchase books over PDFs, such as not having a portable device to display them on."
So it was your misunderstanding. That's what happens when you take a single sentence out of context.
As such, I will save my witty sarcastic remarks, as they are not applicable. However, I suggest that you save your smug technological superiority for when it's applicable, instead of at a comment you misunderstood.
You have absolutely no clue as to why I bought books over PDFs, and your presumptions proceeded you.
As a matter of fact, one of the reasons I bought them as books was specifically to adhere to said rule. At the time I had no way of using a PDF portably, so I couldn't demonstrate that I owned the material.
Rather ironic, isn't it?
Anyway, moving on...
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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E.G. Besides Starred GMs, who the f*** is going to think upon purchase "I better buy all my books as PDFs because otherwise some vestigial non-gameplay related rule in PFS will screw me over. This realization will definitely motivate me to not use the store-credit I have for my book store or any of the other reasons one might prefer to purchase books over PDFs, such as not having a portable device to display them on."
Actually, up until about a year ago, neither did I, as my battery life in my lap top at that time was roughly half an hour, and about 50% of sessions were at tables without power.
at this point it is up to about 3 hours, assuming I have fully charged it. My smartphone on the other hand does have a beautiful battery life, and just enough free memory to store a paizo pdf, but not to open one.
I also have been buying pdfs since before I was starred, or even GMed. Mostly because they are cheap. Given all that, it would be pretty silly of me to be smug, and in fact, I wasn't being smug, I was just pointing out that there are certain realities in play.
As a matter of fact, one of the reasons I bought them as books was specifically to adhere to said rule. At the time I had no way of using a PDF portably, so I couldn't demonstrate that I owned the material.
Rather ironic, isn't it?
Not really. You can use a printed page from a pdf, which shows the watermark, and I believe always have been able to, for at least the last several years.
In fact a fair bit of my gaming folder is printouts of the pages I need to keep my PCs legal.
It isn't that no one has come up with a decent alternative, is coming up with one that is feasible. One that protects Paizo's IP, the LFGS, PFS, and the consumer.
Check around, you'll see discussions about photocopies, using library books, sign-off sheets, putting in a special code for a PDF copy when you purchase a hardcopy book, etc.
On PDFs vs hardcopies:
PDFs have many advantages.
You can use them on any device you have a PDF reader on.
Paizo updates them in your Downloads area when they do another printing of the hardcover.
If you lose your device with the PDF on it, you can download a fresh copy.
Hardcopies have a few advantages of their own.
Easier to make notes in the margins when needed.
Can get them signed by developers and such like a fanboy. ;) (doesn't help if someone takes it, though)
They can be used to swat a fly or other irritants....
1. Put in the disclaimer that I respect everyone and consider what they have to say carefully even though it may not come across(what I'm doing here)
2. Carefully and laboriously revise every comment I make to sound less confrontational and remove offensive overly-broad statements or opinions(what I did with every other comment)
As long threads continue, I generally get gradually more blunt and people start getting insulted. Might as well say something now in case that starts happening.
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Thank you for communicating that in a non-condescending way. It proves such things are possible.
The observation about the solution and their feasibility was also very insightful, as many of the alternatives others provided seemed perfectly logical and compromising. That perspective is very helpful, even if it kind of sucks to hear.
As I stated above, books were the only way to obtain the material while following this rule. I also had about $200 of store credit at a book store from selling old textbooks, and got a lot of the material that way. I own books and not PDFs BECAUSE OF ACTUAL REASONS.
One of the many, many, many reasons I hate online communication is that people assume I don't have basic problem solving skills or that I haven't eliminated incredibly obvious alternate options. Thus, I have to explain every single reason as to why I didn't use other solutions, such as bringing less books, or why I bought books in the first place.
I know the other obvious solutions, and they either don't work, like carrying less books, or aren't acceptable, like spending 50+ dollars for material I already have. I've tried providing other options and so have other people here but the people who have the greatest credibility keep reminding me that ZE RULES ARE OBZULUTE!
It really does not seem like a lot to ask when I've already spent the money on them. I mean seriously, come on; this thread demonstrates that PFS is anal about finding solutions to rules that are overly anal.
Bottom line, this still needs to be solved. I own the books. I used them to make characters. I followed the rules carefully. I made my purchases thoughtfully. I did everything right. Now what?
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Bottom line, this still needs to be solved. I own the books. I used them to make characters. I followed the rules carefully. I made my purchases thoughtfully. I did everything right. Now what?
Yes.
Everyone agrees that this needs to be solved.
For that to happen, someone needs to come up with a solution. The solutions paizo came up with resulted in people cheating. So Paizo is not going waste there time coming up with more solutions.
Since I *do* respect your problem solving skills, I am trying to get you to understand that the solution to this problem is going to have to come from people like you who live with this problem.
So come up with a solution that as kinevon said, protects Paizo's IP, the LFGS, PFS, and the consumer. Then pitch it to Mike Brock and John Compton as way to solve this once and for all. That is the only way this problem is going to get solved.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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It isn't that no one has come up with a decent alternative, is coming up with one that is feasible. One that protects Paizo's IP, the LFGS, PFS, and the consumer.
Perhaps I should have said acceptable? I kind of figured all that would have been in a proposal deemed decent. But language varies.
Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis
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If the rules are going to punish me for having more material that seems pretty ass-backwards. Im just saying.Not to mention that, given the current level of enforcement, the rule punishes those who follow it far more than it punishes those who don't.That... is a really good point. The only offset of it is that if someone doesnt follow it, they get totally screwed when caught. But that seems like entirely the wrong intent of how ANY rule shod be made enforced.
Do they really get totally screwed if caught? Have you ever witnessed (or even heard of) someone being forced to leave the table (or reported up the chain) for not bringing correct source materials?
As a Gen Con GM, I was running a scenario, and a player's character had some ability I had not heard of. I asked him to tell me what it did, and he pulled his phone out and looked up online (not on the PRD but the other one.) He didn't own the resource - in fact, he didn't own the resrouce of most of his characters things (he had just used online sources to make his character.) So, I told him he could finish the table (we were more than 1/2 way into it) he couldn't use that character again, unless he found the materials. He was warned about the rule, and told what he needed to get.
I thought that was a fair way to addres the issue, but I won't be so generous to the next player (and this character was level 1, so it was reasonable for me to conclude he was a relatively new player.)
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis
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I just keep all my PDFs on a Flash Drive.
If they want to check, they can just use their laptop/ipad/etc, and look it up.
Not at my table. A flash drive won't connect to my iPad, and I don't bring a laptop. It is incumbent upon you to provide me the document in a format I can use. That's YOUR responsbility. It is not mine to provide you the means to view or translate that document.
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I just keep all my PDFs on a Flash Drive.
If they want to check, they can just use their laptop/ipad/etc, and look it up.
You mean on YOUR laptop, right? Even if I bring my laptop (which is 50/50) why would I plug someone else's flash drive into it? That's just asking for a virus.
Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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The rule isn't just to prove ownership. Its to present an unadulterated copy of the rules you are using. GM's don't own everything so you need to bring proof that that is how that stuff your using works.
And this can be handled by a player with signed ownership forum and copies of the relevant sections of the books needed to support what the character can do.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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The rule isn't just to prove ownership. Its to present an unadulterated copy of the rules you are using. GM's don't own everything so you need to bring proof that that is how that stuff your using works.And this can be handled by a player with signed ownership forum and copies of the relevant sections of the books needed to support what the character can do.
Anyone with more than a basic amount of technical knowledge and access to google would not have much trouble editing a watermarked PDF before printing it out to present.
Much less hassle than trying to doctor photocopies.
Very true. There is always that possibility. But printouts of PDFs with the watermark is a valid resource right now.
This is why my idea of having a form that is signed off by a VO or high star GM ALSO be on hand would help document ownership of the resource.
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While the answer to your question is no, what if the VOs and high stars GM have the ability to "sign off" on what resources a player has?
A player would need to show the correct person their resources, likely books, that is tracked on a forum similar to the tracking sheet. Then the player could bring copies of the needed areas of their books and the official form to show ownership. This would need to be done at least once a year. And until it is signed off, any new books would have to be carried with the player.
PDFs are already taken care of so that is not really an issue.
Workable? Is this something we, as a player base, could get into the rules for PFS?
His does not solve the root need for this rule... The ability for a GM to be able to look up a rule in a book she does not own herself. While proof of ownership is an important part of this, the real problem being solved is the ability for a GM to make rulings/understand rules in books the she does not have to own.
No amount of pictures, or sign off sheets, will ever help this.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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Then pitch it to Mike Brock and John Compton as way to solve this once and for all. That is the only way this problem is going to get solved.
To this end, I have created a new thread for the specific purpose of finding an alternative. It can be found here.
If anyone is interested in adding to that discussion I would encourage to come help find something that would be workable.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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That... is a really good point. The only offset of it is that if someone doesnt follow it, they get totally screwed when caught. But that seems like entirely the wrong intent of how ANY rule shod be made enforced.
Do they really get totally screwed if caught? Have you ever witnessed (or even heard of) someone being forced to leave the table (or reported up the chain) for not bringing correct source materials?
Not "totally screwed." There are pre-gens you can play.
But yeah, if you come to my table with your angel-blooded aasimar Hunter with a wand of infernal healing in your spring-loaded wrist-sheath, and you didn't bring the documentation*, there's no way I'm letting you play that character**. Go get a copy of Kyra.
* I GMed "Pallid Plague" at a convention a couple of years ago, where four out of the five players were running aasimars. None of them had anything other than HeroLab. One of the five got to play his PC.
** A reminder: the player is also responsible for bringing an updated copy of the Additional Resources document.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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Bring them with you like Gamers have done from the Seventies on.I don't recall this many books from the 70s;...
When I played LG I don't recall ever having to bring more than 4 or 5 books to a Con and, IIRC, photo copied pages were allowed.
When I was in LFR all you needed was a character printed for WotC's online character builder.
Only PFS has this high level of requirements.
One thing that would help, which I have suggested before, is that Paizo work with Lone Wolf to bring Hero Lab more inline to make it 'the official Pathfinder character app' so that it can be allowed as a legal source. And before you Hero Lab haters start chiming in on Hero Lab inaccuracies and abbreviated rules text, I would like to point out that the D&D online character builder has the same issues (Actually, they were worse. I know. I spent a lot of time getting them corrected.) and it was still considered a legal source.
Of course, most people would probably be happy if they just started letting us use photo copies from the books again. I realize they stopped this because of some specific incidents of people cheating, but was it really that wide spread of a problem?
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I just keep all my PDFs on a Flash Drive.
If they want to check, they can just use their laptop/ipad/etc, and look it up.
Is that a physical copy. No.
Is that a print-out? No.
Is that a pdf I can read? Nope, because my iPad doesn't have an external port and I don't bring my laptop to conventions.
If the non-core material is an item, like a wrist-sheath or a resonant ability of an ioun stone in your wayfinder, you won't be able to use it. If it's a non-core class or race? See the nice people at the front table for a pre-gen.
I just keep all my PDFs on a Flash Drive.
If they want to check, they can just use their laptop/ipad/etc, and look it up.
This would also not fly with me. I bring the books. not a laptop. So you could say you had anything on the flash drive and I couldn't tell if you were right or not.
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I suggested a solution two years ago.
I believe that the rules have changed since then: you now are allowed to carry 'a name-watermarked Paizo PDF of it'. As blackbloodtroll indicated above, there is nothing saying you can't bring your PDF on some form of media that's unreadable (I carry all of my PDFs around on a ZIP disk... that's legal, right?). Food for thought.
No, it's not legal. If you can't show me the file, it's useless.
Well, if you are unwilling/unable to buy the PDFs you need, there are a few other alternatives. Mind, none of them are perfect but they may help your situation.
1. Get a car or a friend with a car. Tons of cargo space, good for things other than going to the game store, and surprisingly cheap for an old beater (especially if you need/want to buy a ton of PDFS). Alternately, do you have anyone else with a car that attends the games? They can help transport you and a wagon-full of things for some gas money. A taxi could also help on the days you need to take a lot of things with you.
2. Reduce your needs. Play something that doesn't require 8 hardbacks and multiple other resources. It may be more fun to have every option available all the time, but some reduction will reduce your weight problem.
A solution may be on the way, but it could be days, weeks or even years down the road. If you need to do something now, these might be some choices to consider in lieu of PDFS and a laptop.
Of course, most people would probably be happy if they just started letting us use photo copies from the books again. I realize they stopped this because of some specific incidents of people cheating, but was it really that wide spread of a problem?
SERIOUSLY! That's what I want to know. People going out of their way to get a book from the library or a friend and scan it themselves doesn't sound like a pandemic.
I just keep all my PDFs on a Flash Drive.
If they want to check, they can just use their laptop/ipad/etc, and look it up.
Funny thing is that I already do this... About a year ago I bought a 64GB flashdrive and I wear it has a necklace. It has:
-Every picture I've ever taken(thousands)
-All my Photoshop files
-All my classwork
-Every picture I've edited or saved from the Internet
-Every word document I've ever made, including my college essays
-All the PDFs I've ever owned of any kinds from all sources.
-Every video I've ever made myself, plus a few from Youtube
-Etc.
If I owned the PDFs I needed, I would already be carrying them wherever I go. I already carry Seekers of Secrets and Pathfinder Unchained everywhere via this method.
I'm tempted to simply save the relevant urls on my phone, and if a GM doesn't accept that, I'll give them a copy of this thread and said: "Hey, I tried, alright?"
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Of course, most people would probably be happy if they just started letting us use photo copies from the books again. I realize they stopped this because of some specific incidents of people cheating, but was it really that wide spread of a problem?SERIOUSLY! That's what I want to know. People going out of their way to get a book from the library or a friend and scan it themselves doesn't sound like a pandemic.
From the sounds of things, it was quite a problem if it was ruled that photo copies couldn't be used.
I just keep all my PDFs on a Flash Drive.
If they want to check, they can just use their laptop/ipad/etc, and look it up.
Funny thing is that I already do this... About a year ago I bought a 64GB flashdrive and I wear it has a necklace. It has:
-Every picture I've ever taken(thousands)
-All my Photoshop files
-All my classwork
-Every picture I've edited or saved from the Internet
-Every word document I've ever made, including my college essays
-All the PDFs I've ever owned of any kinds from all sources.
-Every video I've ever made myself, plus a few from Youtube
-Etc.If I owned the PDFs I needed, I would already be carrying them wherever I go. I already carry Seekers of Secrets and Pathfinder Unchained everywhere via this method.
I'm tempted to simply save the relevant urls on my phone, and if a GM doesn't accept that, I'll give them a copy of this thread and said: "Hey, I tried, alright?"
I print out the corrosponding pages for my characters from the PDFs that I own. There are water marks with my name on them. I also carry my books around in a backpack and messenger bag. if I can't get everything in those two bags, then there's an issue, and I try to consolidate. While I understand that it's a major pain, it's one to help keep people from cheating, and helps keep Paizo and FLGS in business.
As a side note, a proper strapped, balanced, and weighted backpack is so worth it for carrying books. Then again, I may have a slight hobby of taking long walks with 30ish pounds strapped to my back, so I'm a bit used to having some extra weight strapped to my back.
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Then again, I may have a slight hobby of taking long walks with 30ish pounds strapped to my back, so I'm a bit used to having some extra weight strapped to my back.
I have a very similar hobby - just with heavier loads strapped to my back as I hoof it great distances...
That said, I am not keen on that weight being just roleplaying books :p
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I think that the problem with any sort of alternate system to the one that's currently in place is that you are in all likelihood going to get different issues arising that people that push for the change don't agree with or foresee, which then require more changes that will in all likelihood lead to more changes, and so on.
The current system in place is more than fair, imo, because it provides multiple options for achieving the same thing: Having rules that allow GMs to make effective rulings, and supporting the game company that invests resources in what is effectively a marketing campaign for them.
Since I am more heavily invested in the first part than the second part, let me elaborate on my reasoning. First off, having the actual rules in front of a GM allows them to make sure that A) the player isn't assuming interpretation, and B) see how current campaign and system rules would interact with the rule in question. In my personal experience, I've found that most people (myself certainly included) will miss a phrase in something that will lead me to assume that it will interact with something else in such a way as to make me invulnerable/omnipotent/what-have-you, when that actually isn't the case upon a second read through.
I've found that this also cuts down on rules arguments immensely.
Even veteran and fairly experienced players can fall into this camp. A recent discussion about pirranah strike at our local group would be a good example: the player using it was using it with an aldori dueling blade, because he had missed the fact that it was only useable with light weapons. but I digress.
If anything, one of the suggestions I would make would be something like a three month policy for new players, where you could allow new players to use material from books that they don't own (yet) but make it abundantly clear that they would need to purchase the books or change their characters accordingly in that time. It allows new players to come in using options from books they don't own (say, using the invulnerable rager barbarian archetype) but gives them more than enough warning and ample time to save/get a copy of the book that option comes from (hopefully from their flgs).
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This would also not fly with me. I bring the books. not a laptop. So you could say you had anything on the flash drive and I couldn't tell if you were right or not.I just keep all my PDFs on a Flash Drive.
If they want to check, they can just use their laptop/ipad/etc, and look it up.
While I usually have two tablets with me, neither of them is designed to connect or read a flash drive. And, as another poster mentioned, why should I risk the health and integrity of my tablet or laptop on someone else's flash drive?
Seriously, when you plug a flash drive into a laptop, and you use one of the more effective anti-virus programs, you aren't going to be able to do of anything for several minutes, until the drive has been scanned and certified clean. That is neither helpful nor time effective.
Please, if you do own the PDFs, print out the relevant portions, using "shrink to fit" so the watermark prints, and keep those pages with the character or characters who use them.
If many of your PCs use some options, keep those in a separate folder or pocket, labeled, "All PCs"; and keep stuff used only by one PC with that PC.
Heck, last night, while trying to find out how a player came with the modifier to damage for his Paladin smiting an evil creature, it turned out the player was wrong low, not having remembered to update his numbers/macro after he leveled up.
As a GM, if a number or result seems odd to me, I will ask. Hopefully, if you are prepared, it will only take a few moments to explain it, or pull out the relevant pages explaining the ability, so we can get right back to the game.
As a player, I keep crib sheets for things I commonly use, or hgave multiple options that can change things radically, like my high level archer and his bow feats. Point Blank Shot, Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, this, that, and the other.
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Then again, I may have a slight hobby of taking long walks with 30ish pounds strapped to my back, so I'm a bit used to having some extra weight strapped to my back.I have a very similar hobby - just with heavier loads strapped to my back as I hoof it great distances...
That said, I am not keen on that weight being just roleplaying books :p
You have trained kangaroos with pouches. Thats cheating.
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I buy the books whenever I visit a local game store that runs pathfinder. The pdf's dont support the stores. I do pick up pdf's when things are out of print.
My prior "rolling thunder" died at Origins 2013. The base snapped into plastic shards...so sad when fort saves fail. So Im shopping for a rolling tool box for "rolling thunder reborn"
Yeah as I play at FLGS mostly I try to buy real book to keep them in business.
Having a check sheet signed off by a VO that let me use photocopies would make my life a lot better as then I could bike to more games.
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It really comes down to conventions for me. Using multiple characters means I need the set just in case. I wouldn't trust documents signed by VL's as being useful. Because you need the rule on hand. So sure I have to carry the books. Paizo may wish to start selling portable holes (rolling toolboxes) as those handy haversacks just dont cut it
Core cuts down on my carrier requirements :-)
well to me the point would be that i could use photocopies again.
I can keep all the rules i use along with the character in a binder.
Its also MUCH easier to hand a GM one sheet with the rule highlighted then it is to find it in the book and hand that over.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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well to me the point would be that i could use photocopies again.
I can keep all the rules i use along with the character in a binder.
Its also MUCH easier to hand a GM one sheet with the rule highlighted then it is to find it in the book and hand that over.
This is what my suggestion is all about. Finding a middle ground for players and GMs.
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Jeez, I certainly got a lot of nasty responses to my approach.
If it helps ease many a mind, I also keep a PDF copy in my mediafire account, and a list of direct links.
Seriously, demanding that much, right away, in a very specific format, is a bit much.
I am disabled, and cannot drive, so I carry as little as I can.
If a Judge was so adamant, that he/she demanded I carry all proof, in physical format, at all times, I would just never game with that judge.
The PFSRD, d20PFSRD, and Archive of Nethys exist.
Even Apple products can access them.
Even if I had only print copies, of every book I owned, it would be too much for me to carry.
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The PFSRD, d20PFSRD, and Archive of Nethys exist.
Please keep in mind that:
1. The rules as put forth by Paizo don't include these as legal sources and never have.2. Not all locations have internet access/reliable cell phone coverage
3. PFSRD only includes stuff from the RPG line lus the Technology guide, not all material.
4. d20 has licensing issues that don't allow for somethings to be correctly input into their system up to and including the names of some feats and traits. As well as being a 3rd party source that may or may not be right.
5. Nethys while extremely good and well maintained still occasionally gets things wrong.
As for the rest of your comment, I don't think any of us are arguing that carrying all the materials is convenient/easy however Paizo many times has come back with the response that you can choose to limit your character to a small number of sources or print only relevant pages from the water-marked PDFs. At this time those are your legal options. If another option is put forth that meets a number of criteria (I like the one I saw earlier, but can't find atm) Paizo may expand that list of options. The mediafire account is a great way to handle this issue (IMO). But please also be aware that a GM enforcing a rule is not doing anything wrong, they are doing what they are supposed to do as put forth in the Guide to Organized Play.