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Ok, so here goes
I have a cleric and or oracle
they are casting spiritual weapon.
They get Trait Magical lineage
Benefit: Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell that add at least 1 level to the spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell's final adjusted level.
and then get Merciful Spell
Benefit: You can alter spells that inflict damage to inflict nonlethal damage instead. Spells that inflict damage of a particular type (such as fire) inflict nonlethal damage of that same type.
Level Increase: None (a merciful spell does not use up a higher-level spell slot than the spell’s actual level.)
or Trait:
Wayang Spellhunter
Benefit: You grew up on one of the wayang-populated islands of Minata, and your use of magic while hunting has been a boon to you. Select a spell of 3rd level or below. When you use this spell with a metamagic feat, it uses up a spell slot one level lower than it normally would.
So does that mean they effectively cast Spiritual Weapon as a 0 level cantrip/ orison?
so they cast it each level and it lasts for up to their level... so a level 10, has 10 spiritual weapons dealing force damage for which there is no DR or energy resistance? So Every level they stand to do 10D8 every turn, even if its only stun/ subdual damage, they just slit its throat after combat since its out cold.
Is it being read or interpreted wrong?
Thanks just needing some help soon.
Basically the swarm of Spiritual Weapons is kinda getting out of hand.
First, as a GM I wouldn't allow those traits to stack, since both bonuses are from traits and trait bonuses don't stack.
Second, since the metamagic feat didn't increase the spell level there should not be a decrease available using Magical lineage, which says
Benefit: Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell that add at least 1 level to the spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell's final adjusted level.
I would rule as a GM that the same applies for Wayang Spellhunter, if there was no increase in the spell level due to the metamagic feat, no reduction can apply. The spell level in the spell description is the minimum it can ever be, i.e. Spiritual Weapon is level 2, and can never be less than level 2.
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Gotcha thanks guys
Because the thought of essentially 20 spiritual hammers flying about the battle field felt incredibly broken to me.
*Edit for below*
Roger, so a spell that is 3rd will always be a 3rd level spell, they are just there to offset the increase in the spell slot level gained by metamagic feats. They cant cause the spell to go lower than what it started.
That is correct
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I wouldn't allow those traits to stack, since both bonuses are from traits and trait bonuses don't stack.
Just wanted to touch on this once more. Numerical bonuses are what you're thinking of. Two different +2 Trait Bonuses to Initiative would not stack, because they are both of the same type, but neither Wayang Spellhunter nor Magical Lineage provide a bonus of any kind.
Combining the two is actually a fairly common component of many Magus builds.
I wouldn't allow those traits to stack, since both bonuses are from traits and trait bonuses don't stack.Just wanted to touch on this once more. Numerical bonuses are what you're thinking of. Two different +2 Trait Bonuses to Initiative would not stack, because they are both of the same type, but neither Wayang Spellhunter nor Magical Lineage provide a bonus of any kind.
Combining the two is actually a fairly common component of many Magus builds.
I'm pretty sure he understand that the official stance is they stack.
I'm pretty sure he cares crap all for that (like me) and is saying that they shouldn't. Lowering metamagic costs is an incredibly strong ability.
I wouldn't allow those traits to stack, since both bonuses are from traits and trait bonuses don't stack.Just wanted to touch on this once more. Numerical bonuses are what you're thinking of. Two different +2 Trait Bonuses to Initiative would not stack, because they are both of the same type, but neither Wayang Spellhunter nor Magical Lineage provide a bonus of any kind.
Combining the two is actually a fairly common component of many Magus builds.
I'm pretty sure he understand that the official stance is they stack.
I'm pretty sure he cares crap all for that (like me) and is saying that they shouldn't. Lowering metamagic costs is an incredibly strong ability.
Yep, I fully realize they can stack in the proper context, however I believe there are some traits, and feats, that are too strong and shouldn't be allowed to stack. Doubling up on the same benefit, whether or not it's a numerical bonus, should be carefully considered before allowing it. Too many traits, feats, and alternate racial/class bonuses pop up without knowing there's a potential unintended interaction out there, until someone starts pulling shenanigans like the OP has encountered.
Unfortunately a couple of the OP's players convinced the OP they could.
I think I am confused. Even if Metamagic could reduce levels I'm not sure how you would get to 0 on a 2nd level spell here... what am I missing?
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You add the merciful spell metamagic feat to it, and that makes a spell non lethal. Now that the spell has a metamagic feat attached you add the traits: Wayang Spell Hunter and Magical Lineage, there was something else that I was told that could be used, Tenebrous or something....
but basically it lowers a 2nd level spell that has a metamagic feat on it to become two levels lower... so 2nd level minus 2 equals zero... which one would think could be a cantrip or orison.... and thus infinite and not expended....
but the rules have been errated/ faq'ed so its not eligible anymore.
You add the merciful spell metamagic feat to it, and that makes a spell non lethal. Now that the spell has a metamagic feat attached you add the traits: Wayang Spell Hunter and Magical Lineage, there was something else that I was told that could be used, Tenebrous or something....
but basically it lowers a 2nd level spell that has a metamagic feat on it to become two levels lower... so 2nd level minus 2 equals zero... which one would think could be a cantrip or orison.... and thus infinite and not expended....
but the rules have been errated/ faq'ed so its not eligible anymore.
Yeah, but even without the errata, a cursory reading of Magical Lineage wouldn't allow this combo. Wayang Spell Hunter, sure, but not Magical Lineage.
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but basically it lowers a 2nd level spell that has a metamagic feat on it to become two levels lower... so 2nd level minus 2 equals zero... which one would think could be a cantrip or orison.... and thus infinite and not expended....
And that too is wrong. Even if you somehow reduce a spell elvel to 0 it don't become a cantrip. It become a 0 level spell. And there are no spell slots for 0 level spells.
They are 2 different features:
Spells: A wizard [blah, blah, blah]
Several row and bolded sections below that
Cantrips: Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips [blah, blah, blah]
Each bolded section is a different feature or subfeature and cantrips aren't a subfeature of spells.
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but basically it lowers a 2nd level spell that has a metamagic feat on it to become two levels lower... so 2nd level minus 2 equals zero... which one would think could be a cantrip or orison.... and thus infinite and not expended....
And that too is wrong. Even if you somehow reduce a spell elvel to 0 it don't become a cantrip. It become a 0 level spell. And there are no spell slots for 0 level spells.
They are 2 different features:
Spells: A wizard [blah, blah, blah]
Several row and bolded sections below that
Cantrips: Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips [blah, blah, blah]
Each bolded section is a different feature or subfeature and cantrips aren't a subfeature of spells.
Cantrips and level 0 spells are the same thing.
Cantrips: Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Wizard under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again. A wizard can prepare a cantrip from a prohibited school, but it uses up two of his available slots (see below).
Still... A fun combo with Wayang spellhunter can be the following :
Any 1st-level damage spell
+
Merciful spell
=
A Merciful 0th-level spell... Who wants my nonlethal spammable Magic Missile ?
except this has been ruled on with this faq
ahh ninja'ed
I would actually allow it in my games. Might be a bit powerful early on, sure, but later a first level spell - that still takes the time to cast and only does nonlethal damage - isn't going to be gamebreaking as castable numerous times. And Magical Lineage wouldn't affect it (again, as worded the trait only works with metamagic that increases spell level in the first place) so there's only one trait that allows it. You'd have to spend one trait and one feat for your trick to work.
And keep in mind the limitations of nonlethal damage. It can't kill the target, heals naturally much faster, and is cured point for point along with hit point damage - so if you are relying heavily on nonlethal damage, enemy healing is effectively doubled. (Possibly including fast healing and regeneration, I'm not sure whether those qualify.) Several kinds of monsters - including all constructs and undead - are completely immune to nonlethal damage.
When you consider these factors, is a nonlethal magic missile really that much more powerful than a Disrupt Undead spell? It is definitely less powerful than a 1st level spell.
Ah, good call.
Also, where is the ruling that spells can't drop below original level? All I have seen is the FAQ on Magical Lineage - which wouldn't apply to the general rule since, again, it requires the metamagic to increase the spell level before it then decreases it.
So why couldn't Wayang Spellhunter decrease a spell by a level, which doesn't require the same effect?
there is no general rule for allowing spells to be dropped in level. normally a spell can only be cast in a higher level slot not the other way around.
There's also no general rule allowing you to trade attack for damage, but Power Attack allows just this - specific rules beat general ones, especially when the general is a *lack* of ruling.
Wayang Spellhunter specifically would allow a spell to be lowered with a metamagic feat that gave no level adjustment. This may be errata'd - but until it is, this is a legal move.
Being that Wayang Spellhunter is a setting specific trait, and that setting specific stuff is very rarely even FAQ'd, it seems slightly disingenuous to play the "it's legal until errata'd" when the core line trait it is mirroring has already received the FAQ showing the intent.
Yes, it is possibly RAW, but it is clearly not RAI and considering the source it is unlikely to ever get FAQ'd and will also certainly never see errata (as far as I can find the Winter Witch prestige class is the only setting line errata to have ever come out).
If you try using it in PFS, expect some GMs to rule against its legality.
Being that Wayang Spellhunter is a setting specific trait, and that setting specific stuff is very rarely even FAQ'd, it seems slightly disingenuous to play the "it's legal until errata'd" when the core line trait it is mirroring has already received the FAQ showing the intent.
Yes, it is possibly RAW, but it is clearly not RAI and considering the source it is unlikely to ever get FAQ'd and will also certainly never see errata (as far as I can find the Winter Witch prestige class is the only setting line errata to have ever come out).
If you try using it in PFS, expect some GMs to rule against its legality.
I neither play nor GM PFS, so no worries there. But as for the core line trait... the text on Magical Lineage is different from Wayang Spellhunter. Magical Lineage explicitly says the metamagic feat has to increase the spell level. I could see, based on the wording, how someone might interpret it as saying it reduces the level *instead of* adding to it. The FAQ given seems to clarify the grammar on this, to me - by specifying that ML cannot reduce the level, it is saying you both increase the level and reduce it. However, Wayang Spellhunter does not have this text - all it says is that you would reduce it.
So we basically have two possibilities on the FAQ:
1. It is correcting a possible misunderstanding based on the wording of ML that specifies the trait reduces the spell level in addition to metamagic changes, not replaces it. If so, it doesn't apply to WSH because the latter's text doesn't have that abiguity.
2. It is specifying that ML cannot reduce a spell below its original level, regardless of modifiers. If so, this would (while not specifically carry over) at least indicate similar traits should function the same way - including WSH.
However, given that the very text of ML would always make it impossible for a spell to be reduced in level (since it can only decrease spells that have been increased) there seems little point in mentioning 2 in regards to that trait. Thus, 1 seems the more likely interpretation.
Now, I'd never use this trick on a character so if 2 is correct it makes little difference to me. But I can certainly understand a player who wanted to do this and it does seem to be in the rules as they are written. And as a GM, I would allow this, because again, I don't think it is really *that* overpowered - a merciful spell is generally strictly inferior to the base spell, and I think player who wanted to spend a feat and a trait to get a single inferior 1st level spell castable at will should be allowed to.
Not to mention that at least once, someone will forget the enemy is just knocked out rather than dead, which can lead to all kinds of fun surprises!