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I'm working on a concept that uses stealth and bombs, and I was planning on using my talents to get the rogue tricks for bombs. Except the bombs you get through the bomber rogue trick work off your sneak attack damage...and from that I've read, hidden Strike ain't Sneak Attack.
I'm fairly confident this isn't the only problem that will arise. For instance, there are several feats that are appropriate for the stalker concept but which they can't qualify for due to them requiring sneak attack as a prerequisite.
For the purpose of the playtest in PFS or generally, can we use Hidden Strike as a substitute for Sneak Attacks? Has there been a ruling on this already?
Hidden Strike should just be an actually new and unique class feature instead of a Sneak Attack that does even less damage.
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Hidden Strike? How about making it like a touch attack - less a damage buff, more a successful strike mechanic that takes allows you to take advantage of your foe's...unawareness, but a little more than flank or flat-footedness. It only works once after all - or as much as one can set up the fairly situational prereqs... A situational, melee analogue, gunslinger. That ought to give people enough to have a fit over.
I think the thing that some people are not grocking to is that hidden strike is designed to be more geared towards the "I jump from the shadows, attack, and then return to the shadows" and not "I stand in combat, moving to an opponent's weak side, and striking when his attention is diverted" module that is current sneak attack.
As currently written, it's almost impossible to reliably get sneak attack from range.
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If the game were designed to make that AT ALL viable that would e a valid way to play it.
As-is Sneak Attack damage is piddling at low levels (where you can't do it at all) and needs a real full attack to be relevant at high levels (which using Stealth after every attack precludes, since it takes a Move action).
Sneak Attack is terrible. Sneak Attack that turns into d4's when you're using it 90% off the time is even worse.
I was also trying to point out a problem with backwards compatibility, raising the bomber rogue talent as an example. A Stalker could technically pick it, but without sneak attack the bomb would literally do 0d6 damage.
Any items that work with sneak attack would also not work with hidden strike. Sniper's goggles for instance would do nothing for the stalker.
Everyone keeps focusing on the slightly lower damage of Hidden Strike that they don't notice how much easier it is to pull off than a sneak attack. You have HiPS as a talent, Up Close and Personal straight-up gives you a free attack with full Hidden Strike damage, Perfect Vulnerability gives you a free Hidden Strike touch attack against every enemy 1/day, and the Startling Appearance class feature makes your first salvo after Stealth, Invisibility, etc that much easier to hit and that much more damaging. I'd prefer a reward for Stealth as opposed to a penalty for open combat, but Hidden Strike is only straight-up worse than sneak attack if you ignore how it interacts with the rest of the class features. As it stands I'd feel much more confident about going into combat with a stalker than a rogue.
My issue is not with the damage output at all. If you'd read my posts, you'd see that my issue is more with compatibility with previous material, such as the rogue's bomber talent or the knockout artist or dastardly finish feats, to name a few. Or use with items like the sniper's goggles. Also, is fortification supposed to block this? Are elementals immune? All those will need to be answered too.
Those are the reasons why I am proposing hidden strike should just be sneak attack, to keep the rules more streamlined. Or at least have a statement about it counting as sneak attack for the purpose of interaction and qualification for feats, items, class features and effects.
If I was writing the class I'd say it counts as sneak attack for all purposes except for damage. Then I could have a reason to take Halfling Opportunist for 5 levels. Take Leave an Opening to get AoOs with full Hidden Strike damage often. If you want, you could even take the Snap Shot line and deal tons of damage with a bow in melee. Did someone say "Arrow"?
I fully support the idea of making Hidden Strike do Sneak Attack damage rather than it's own unique precision damage. At the very least it should have a note in the ability that Hidden Strike damage is considered sneak attack damage for feats and magic items and whatnot.
A good re-tooling of the ability would be writing it as normal sneak attack damage, or even d4 sneak attack (if their goal was to make it less effective than normal SA, such as a Dagger Master using anything except daggers) and then give additional effects/damage when the target is unaware or friendly.
I'm actually fine with the way they balanced hidden strike, and I can see why they did it. It does make the wording a bit strange for various archetypes/rogue talents. This could be addressed with a simple line saying that hidden strike damage stacks with/counts as sneak attack damage for the purposes of class ability and feat per-requisites.
And an easier way to word the ability is to say that it's d4 SA that does d6's when the target is unaware or non-hostile. That way you don't even need the caveat of "oh btw this also counts as SA for everything else in the game besides us wanting to call it something else"
It should really be doing d8 on the surprise attack because you're only going to get that once, MAYBE twice on the same opponent unless you're dipping 2 levels of ninja.
I'm actually fine with the way they balanced hidden strike, and I can see why they did it. It does make the wording a bit strange for various archetypes/rogue talents. This could be addressed with a simple line saying that hidden strike damage stacks with/counts as sneak attack damage for the purposes of class ability and feat per-requisites.And an easier way to word the ability is to say that it's d4 SA that does d6's when the target is unaware or non-hostile. That way you don't even need the caveat of "oh btw this also counts as SA for everything else in the game besides us wanting to call it something else"
It should really be doing d8 on the surprise attack because you're only going to get that once, MAYBE twice on the same opponent unless you're dipping 2 levels of ninja.
Even better, d6 sneak attack that becomes D8 when the target is unaware or non-hostile.