Avenger Vigilante Playtest 06 / 20 / 15

[aeontrin]

I playtested a level 1 Human Avenger Vigilante at a PFS Game Day last Saturday. Most of the notes I made are PFS-specific and so I will not discuss them here. The biggest question that was not PFS-specific was how many of the Vigilante's abilities are shared between identities. Page 3 states that "Many of the class features of the vigilante are usable only when the vigilante is in one of his two identities, as noted in the ability." This, however, does not cover Feats, Skills, or Traits. The GM at the table and I agreed that these were shared, but Feats went inactive if the prerequisites were not met. For example, the level 1 Avenger Vigilante has the Assault Training ability which gives +1 BAB/ Vigilante level. My PC took Power Attack and Furious Focus for his two Feats. If he was not in his Vigilante identity, he would not receive the benefits of Assault Training and thus could not use either Feat. Were we correct in this?

In play itself, as expected, the Avenger Vigilante was a weaker Fighter. The loss of 1 HP was negligible as the one encounter that took him to negatives would have taken him down regardless. Attacks went the same as they would have for a 1st-level Fighter. The additional skills, particularly the Charisma-based ones, are a welcome sight. I did have the brief opportunity to use his Social identity to go into town and do party business without tying the activity back to the party. I suspect that he will do a number of investigative tasks in his Social identity in the future.

I look forward to playing him some more and leveling him up during the playtest period.

Thanks,

Will

[Doomn]

From what I read, the level 1 ability is active for both personas. The abilities after that are for the specific persona.

As always, just my two coppers.

-Doomn

[Mark Seifter]

Thanks for playtesting aeontrin; rock on! I agree with Doomn that you keep assault training.

Also, and I'm curious; we've heard from people who weren't playing it, but I'm interested in your perspective: you say you felt like a weaker fighter, what made you feel like a fighter would be stronger than you are? What were those times when you said "If I were a fighter, I would have been doing better?" As you said, the extra skills gave you some times when you could shine over the fighter (and I guess you have an edge up in saving throws too; my forum research has led to many people saying that Will>Fort>Ref, so Will+Ref is a big edge up from Fort alone), but I'm curious about vice versa.

[Jack Amy]

Doomn wrote:

From what I read, the level 1 ability is active for both personas. The abilities after that are for the specific persona.

Playtest Document wrote:

The base ability and bonus class skills

apply when the vigilante is in either of his identities, but
all of the other abilities are available only when he is in his
vigilante identity, unless stated otherwise

This is correct. I agree with your interpretation on losing access to feats while in your social persona while you don't meet the prerequisites. (I'm not quite sure how this works with Warlocks and Improved Familiar though).

[aeontrin]

Mark Seifter wrote:

Thanks for playtesting aeontrin; rock on! I agree with Doomn that you keep assault training.

Also, and I'm curious; we've heard from people who weren't playing it, but I'm interested in your perspective: you say you felt like a weaker fighter, what made you feel like a fighter would be stronger than you are? What were those times when you said "If I were a fighter, I would have been doing better?" As you said, the extra skills gave you some times when you could shine over the fighter (and I guess you have an edge up in saving throws too; my forum research has led to many people saying that Will>Fort>Ref, so Will+Ref is a big edge up from Fort alone), but I'm curious about vice versa.

Even though it did not really come into play, the fewer HPs gave the impression of being weaker. The saving throw differences did not come up at this particular table. The Fighter's Armor and Weapon Training abilities also might give a bit of an edge over the Avenger. OTOH, though, many of the Avenger's Talents are Feats with a little something extra so the two classes may be closer competitively than first appearances would indicate.

Will

[Mark Seifter]

aeontrin wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

Thanks for playtesting aeontrin; rock on! I agree with Doomn that you keep assault training.

Also, and I'm curious; we've heard from people who weren't playing it, but I'm interested in your perspective: you say you felt like a weaker fighter, what made you feel like a fighter would be stronger than you are? What were those times when you said "If I were a fighter, I would have been doing better?" As you said, the extra skills gave you some times when you could shine over the fighter (and I guess you have an edge up in saving throws too; my forum research has led to many people saying that Will>Fort>Ref, so Will+Ref is a big edge up from Fort alone), but I'm curious about vice versa.

Even though it did not really come into play, the fewer HPs gave the impression of being weaker. The saving throw differences did not come up at this particular table. The Fighter's Armor and Weapon Training abilities also might give a bit of an edge over the Avenger. OTOH, though, many of the Avenger's Talents are Feats with a little something extra so the two classes may be closer competitively than first appearances would indicate.

Will

Oh yeah, armor and weapon training are pretty good, no doubt. Since you were level 1 and the fighter wouldn't have it yet, that's what made me curious. The hp thing makes sense, thanks!

[aeontrin]

Mark Seifter wrote:

Oh yeah, armor and weapon training are pretty good, no doubt. Since you were level 1 and the fighter wouldn't have it yet, that's what made me curious. The hp thing makes sense, thanks!

I was looking ahead to plan out how this Avenger was going to grow.

Will

[Mark Seifter]

aeontrin wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

Oh yeah, armor and weapon training are pretty good, no doubt. Since you were level 1 and the fighter wouldn't have it yet, that's what made me curious. The hp thing makes sense, thanks!

I was looking ahead to plan out how this Avenger was going to grow.

Will

Cool, always a good plan! We'd definitely also appreciate some higher level playtests with your future build if you can swing any of those (even if it's like an out-of-PFS thing with a hypothetical version).

[Serisan]

Jack Amy wrote:

Doomn wrote:

(I'm not quite sure how this works with Warlocks and Improved Familiar though).

Your arcane caster level continues to increase whether or not you have access to all of your spells.

[Shisumo]

Was aeontrin right that bonus feats purchased through vigilante talents are kept in the social persona, or not? This is something I've been messing around with myself, and haven't been able to figure out yet for sure.

[Tuyena]

As it's currently written, no.

If you use a talent to pick up exotic weapon proficiency for instabce and get caught in your social persona, say goodbye to your ability to hit.

Even more terrifying if you take Heavy Training and get caught in heavy armor you're suddenly not proficient in.