There may be problems in the future


Advice


We are going to start the Second Darkness AP. The group however has gone suboptimal in it's choices. I've given them my Array for min/max, but instead of min/max or powergaming, it seems as if they've gone for a challenge?

My standard array is around an 8 pointer with a 13, 13, 12, 11, 10 and 9 for their stats. They've chosen a Fighter, Bard, Monk, and Cleric.

I've also allowed a few things from C&C to be houseruled into the characters (D12 and full BAB for Monk, Full BAB and D10 for Bard), but I'm not certain that's going to be enough to make up for a full spellcaster portion which they are lacking (no wizard). I think they may do fine for the first two or three portions, but I'm concerned about the last half.

Second Darkness is a 3.5 so a little less powered then PF AP's, but still worried that this party may get their rear's handed to them?

Am I concerned about nothing? Or is there anything I should do to modify the game in regards to them...OR should I just TPK them if I can?


Wow, that's a horrendous array, worse than the NPC with class levels array. I wouldn't play a character that terrible, and it's basically suicide to play a MAD character like a Monk (or even a Bard) with that. The 3.5 APs are designed to expect 15 Point Buy. The later ones for actual Pathfinder assume 20. They are going to die. A lot.

Silver Crusade Contributor

mplindustries wrote:
Wow, that's a horrendous array, worse than the NPC with class levels array. I wouldn't play a character that terrible, and it's basically suicide to play a MAD character like a Monk (or even a Bard) with that. The 3.5 APs are designed to expect 15 Point Buy. The later ones for actual Pathfinder assume 20. They are going to die. A lot.

I'm pretty sure that the Pathfinder APs also assume 15 point buy.

Other than that? Yeah. Unless you think they'll be satisfied with constant death, I'd kick those ability scores up to at least the equivalent of 15 - since you are using a pregenerated array, I'd go with closer to 20.


Agreed, with an 8 point buy, if I was to agree to play the game, I would probably just make a commoner, to try and show the GM that even other commoners have better stats a lot of the time.

wow.


Someone intentionally played a bard or monk for 8 AP? Is your party a bunch of greenhorns? Could you tape this, because it's going to be hilarious! XD


I don't blame them for not wanting to play a wizard with that point buy. I'm surprised theres even a cleric.


Well the ironic thing is when I started with them they were powergaming big time. They'd curb stomp things into the ground and nothing was a challenge. I knew SD was a 3.5 which is underpowered for PF, so combine those two and I tried to figure the best way to keep things even overall...so, I figured it would be a decent array for powergaming...imagine my surprise....

I came up with the idea by thinking I'd do something maybe old school, and roll 3d6 in order. However, that actually turned up worse scores than the array...so....hence really low array was born.

Little did I know they'd seemingly go with a suicidal group?

Actually, I'm not certain if they are suicidal or just trying to really be challenged? (I did tell them that I was fearful with their powergaming ways they'd tear through SD without a second thought, and was hoping to avoid that). Still...even if they make it through the first three books, I'm really thinking this may be a TPK around the fourth book or so....


Wouldn't it have been better to just change the adventure? If there's three monsters, throw in another, that sort of thing?


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itt: when you create problems there will be problems


I have the feeling that your definition of "powergaming" is going to come out very differently from ours if your ideal on how to stop it is "make them the least capable people on the planet".

If you actually want to fix this, give them a real point-buy, because ten points is what you give to the player who's boinking your wife on the side.

If you don't want to fix this... expect to either TPK them or adjust the AP downward.


Ok, I wouldn't go as extreme on this as some people in the thread are seeming. I actually kind like low ability score games sometimes.

Then my PC isn't a destined hero that can beat veterans right off the bat simply because he has huge stat numbers. He's a regular guy that has to step forward and take on the mantle of hero even though he isn't suited for it.

I think it can be a challenging and interesting game. Having said that, really low numbers AND a requiring a very broad array to be used could be a considered a problem.

Any kind of offensive caster will be very tough since the casting stat is so low. Will have to work pretty hard just to eventually qualify for high level spells.

GreyWolfLord wrote:
Well the ironic thing is when I started with them they were powergaming big time. They'd curb stomp things into the ground and nothing was a challenge. I knew SD was a 3.5 which is underpowered for PF, so combine those two and I tried to figure the best way to keep things even overall...

I think maybe you went too far the other way (unless your players really like and want the challenge).

Also, other than the primary casting stat, low ability scores really make the most difference early in the game at low levels. And that's the time when most of the characters are a bit squishy and the 'power gaming' usually has the least impact on the game.

I would suggest a 15 point buy game. If your group does like a challenge and wants an 'ordinary guys become heroes' type of game you could even try a 10 point buy. That way if a caster does want a decent primary casting stat he can do so at the risk of lowering other ability scores.

If they are still curb stomping encounters, slowly increase the encounter power rather than just reducing the ability starting point. Most of the GM's I've known eventually find they have to increase the encounter's power in published material. Remember, the published material is almost always made so that a beginner can play it with a reasonable chance.


ElterAgo wrote:

Ok, I wouldn't go as extreme on this as some people in the thread are seeming. I actually kind like low ability score games sometimes.

Then my PC isn't a destined hero that can beat veterans right off the bat simply because he has huge stat numbers. He's a regular guy that has to step forward and take on the mantle of hero even though he isn't suited for it.

As mlp pointed out, this array is worse than the NPC array. You're not the regular guy; you're the guy that the regular guys think is a chump.

Liberty's Edge

kestral287 wrote:
ElterAgo wrote:

Ok, I wouldn't go as extreme on this as some people in the thread are seeming. I actually kind like low ability score games sometimes.

Then my PC isn't a destined hero that can beat veterans right off the bat simply because he has huge stat numbers. He's a regular guy that has to step forward and take on the mantle of hero even though he isn't suited for it.

As mlp pointed out, this array is worse than the NPC array. You're not the regular guy; you're the guy that the regular guys think is a chump.

NPCs are usually considered to be above average too, so comparing the characters to NPCs really doesn't matter either way.

The array given (13, 13, 12, 11, 10 and 9) is slightly above average compared to the regular Joe, but below average for what is considered by the game to be standard fantasy hero material (15 point buy).

You don't need to have a 18, 17, or even 16 in a statistic to make a character playable...however, if you are going to give your players a low point stat array, you are limiting some of the variety in the characters. The variance of the statistics is so much less that some players may not feel that their characters have a niche compared to others in the party (especially at level 1).

I suggest you go with at least a 12 point array with two array choices, with one giving one dominant statistic and the another that gives two dominant statistics; or go with a 12 point buy with a minimum of 9 and maximum of 14 before racial adjustments.


RedDogMT wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
ElterAgo wrote:

Ok, I wouldn't go as extreme on this as some people in the thread are seeming. I actually kind like low ability score games sometimes.

Then my PC isn't a destined hero that can beat veterans right off the bat simply because he has huge stat numbers. He's a regular guy that has to step forward and take on the mantle of hero even though he isn't suited for it.

As mlp pointed out, this array is worse than the NPC array. You're not the regular guy; you're the guy that the regular guys think is a chump.
NPCs are usually considered to be above average too, so comparing the characters to NPCs really doesn't matter either way. ...

My understanding is that most use the NPC array for the officer, guild leader, noble, etc... Still more elite than Jim-Bob the butcher's son. The real normal guy will have an average score of 10 or 11 for abilities. So even the 8 point buy is well above that.


I feel their classes make sense. Bard to buff, cleric to buff and heal, monk since all stats are low being mad doesn't matter as much and it's been buffed and fighter to try and do damage. if that's the party they want then go for it. All they lack is a super dedicated arcane caster but they should be able to manage.

*I have no idea about the AP you're running.


You could give them some extra traits or an extra feat if you don't want to change the stat array at this point. Maybe tweak the item drops to give them a little boost here and there?


I don't have any experience with 2nd Darkness, but APs are generally fairly easy unmodified, and Pathfinder is quite a bit more munchkin than 3.5 so I don't think your players will have too many problems. My only real question is the monk, who will have a hard time getting any kind of AC with those stats, but your changes should help. I'm not sure why everyone doesn't play a Bard with those mods though, that is crazy good for an already great class.

As for those who whine about the low point buy, sure it means everyone won't be one shotting everything and never getting hit, but for anyone who remember when you really rolled stats with 3d6, those would be considered a quite good set. I am quite sure you can play and game and have fun with those stats. Especially considering many things about Pathfinder are 'easy mode' anyway compared to previous additions.


Let them go for it. Maybe they will surprise you and won't get curb stomped by everything. With smart experienced players I suspect this is quite possible. Maybe some feats will be that much more difficult to get but conversely some will probably become more desirable. Player creativity and clever thinking will make up for an awful lot of "not even an NPC quality stat array"

Consider adding in more Tomes (etc.) with the lower bonuses if things seem to be too tough. Drop an item or two using rarer bonuses to buff them more if needed (i.e. luck and/or insight come to mind) even to the point of considering those items as if they were inherent bonuses. That is they are permanent, perhaps with lesser maximums (say +3) that can not be disjoined/suppressed by antimagic areas or the like.

Maybe instead of doing what is often recommended for high powered parties vs the AP do the opposite when creating encounters/creatures. Smaller numbers and or reduce the average hit points instead of maximizing them or adding more minions. Again only if it seems they are in fact having trouble with the difficulty otherwise don't fix or worry about what isn't broken unless the fun factor has gone bye bye.

In short if the problem crops up then deal with it. Otherwise don't spend too much time worrying over what if.


Thanks for the advice thus far. So if I go with a new array, but still lower powered, how would a 14, 14, 11, 11, 10, 10 be? I think that's around a 12 point.

Another thing I think may be a possibility is I've talked to my spouse and they may be willing to play an arcane caster, but they have to have at least one 14 (before racial bonuses). With that I'd want to keep it somewhat on par with the other characters that were already created though (as long as they agree), so a 14, 12, 12, 10, 10, 9 or a 14, 13, 11, 10, 10, 9 as an array instead my spouse?

Would having 5 characters with the 8 point array even things out if my spouse plays a Wizard, Sorcerer?


I wouldn't mind starting out with that low of stats if there was a promise the stats would improve (more stats gained per level or more access to magic items).

By book 4 they should be roflstomping stuff again no matter.

Of course, I'd roll a druid for this campaign. Animal companion alone could probably carry us through the first 2 books...


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Just want to add my thought. A low point buy or sub-par array often has the opposite effect if your intent was to reduce optimization. When you have less to work with, you make the most of what you have.

With arrays like that I would go pure caster / caster with pet. Druid, Razmiran Sorcerer, Blockbuster Wizard, Dual-cursed Time Oracle. Sure their foes will save, but between super-powered AoE and combat pets plus forced rerolls who cares?

Or if your group all loves dwarf fortress be my guest. For a regular game, waiting for my to go, then fail, then wait for turn, then fail, then die before my next turn is too much like playing a rogue again. Once in a while it's fine, but I prefer big darn heroes.

YMMV.


GreyWolfLord wrote:

Thanks for the advice thus far. So if I go with a new array, but still lower powered, how would a 14, 14, 11, 11, 10, 10 be? I think that's around a 12 point.

Another thing I think may be a possibility is I've talked to my spouse and they may be willing to play an arcane caster, but they have to have at least one 14 (before racial bonuses). With that I'd want to keep it somewhat on par with the other characters that were already created though (as long as they agree), so a 14, 12, 12, 10, 10, 9 or a 14, 13, 11, 10, 10, 9 as an array instead my spouse?

Would having 5 characters with the 8 point array even things out if my spouse plays a Wizard, Sorcerer?

I would not give any one player a different stat array than the others, especially if said player is your spouse, unless your group is really, really settled in their dynamics and you're sure that they'd be okay with such a thing.

The twelve point array is much more playable but... I'm still not sure why you're not giving them a standard point-buy?

You've sort of proven the defeat of your own purpose already, haven't you? You'd like them to have a full arcane caster, but that's not going to happen with the stats you gave them. In fact you seem dissatisfied with... almost all of their choices. Perhaps those were made for the same reason that Wizard/Sorc was rejected?

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