Hi everybody,
my Goal is a full dex based two weapon fighter with shields.
does the following combination work?:
make a 1 Level dip in swashbucker for swashbucklers Finesse.
Take a heavy shield with shield Spikes -> One-Handed Piercing weapon.
take weapon versality for heavy shield -> deal slashing damage with it.
take slashing grace -> add DEX modifier to damage for a one handed slashing weapon and treat it as piercing for class abilities.
So i have the shield (piercing), make it slashing via weapon versality, get DEX on Damage by slashing grace, wich also allows me again to use it for bucklers Finesse, since i may treat it piercing for class abilities.
-> Dex on attack and damage.
I think i have read about this combination somewhere, but i couldnt find it anymore. so in case of repost, please give me the link :)
thx already.
Why not instead get a Klar. It is already a 1 handed slashing weapon in UE.
Don't need the dip, only need WF Klar and Slashing Grace, Klar.
Whirling Dervish gets Dex to damage on anything it can use with Swashbuckler's Finesse.
@TG:
A Klar is a one-handed-weapon. Weaponfinesse itself will not work on it.
So i could run a klar with slashing grace to Trigger swashbucklers Finesse, but still Need the dip?
@troll:
A whirling Dervish would not be allowed to carry a weapon or shield in the offhand, so obviously i can´t take it for a two-weapon-build.
The "weapon versatility" is questionable since it is not a permanent change.It allows you to deal a different damage type, but it does not change the property a weapon has. As an example you can use a sword as an improvised weapon to do bludgeoning damage, but that does not make it a bludgeoning weapon.
In a home game a GM will probably let it go, but if this is for PFS it expect table variation.
yes i get your argumentations, you are probably right.
im doing a lot of builds atm, just to get to know the rules better.
So i found some threads where ppl hated about things like "agile" weapons because one-stat-build for two weapon fighting would be OP. Did a lot of calculation and im still a bit disappointed by TWF over all in and its still way worse then 2handed. most obvious reason is for a "normal" TWF you Need dex 15/17/19 while STR should still be your main stat.
however, i tried to find all the ways of how to get DEX on attack and damage, and then see wich i can Combine with shields. (obviously the Goal is to deal decent damage with massive AC).
So i found:
For attack.
weapon Finesse -> only on attack, only on light (and rapier), so it would work with light shields
swashbucklers Finesse -> like WF but also for one-handed-piercing. could use it with spiked heavy shields.
For Damage:
agile weapon enhancement. only for light weapons again, so light shields.
derwish Dance -> only for 1 weapon builds
slashing grace -> only for one-handed-slashing weapons and doesnt Trigger WF so you can basicly only use it as swashbuckler.
All These Options suck pretty much, especially the weapon enhancement, since you wanna go for shieldmaster, and put shield enhancements on your shields, since they are cheaper. if you want to go agile it will run you at least 16.000 gp to get going (both shields Need to be +1 weapon + agil = +2 = 8000). so thats nonsense for early game.
Most disappointing is, that a swashbuckler could wield a one-handed weapon, but only way to get DEX on damage as TWF is to go slashing grace, since only light weapons qualify for agile ...
so swashbuckler dip into the slashing grace + weapon versality Combo seemed to be the only valid way avoiding 16k gp to get going...
if you have any other ideas, feel free to post. I´m reading rules a lot, but not everything appeared in german yet. i started reading originals aswell now, but i probably havent read all of it.
forgot 1 Thing:
how would i enhance a klar.
its probably this weapon vs shield Thing again. obviously i would enhance it with an armor enhancementbonus because of the shieldmaster feat. is that possible. and is it a weapon or shield masterwork?
(i know, its discussed weather or not you can wear 2 Magic shields)
Baumfluch wrote: (obviously the Goal is to deal decent damage with massive AC). To clarify here. You do know that two sheild bonuses don't stack (as they're both shield bonuses), right? Also, "decent damage with massive AC" doesn't sound like TWF with Dex to hit and damage with shields. You'd reach the same AC with one shield and probably better damage with a proper one-handed weapon, with Dex to hit and damage.
Baumfluch wrote:
@troll:
A whirling Dervish would not be allowed to carry a weapon or shield in the offhand, so obviously i can´t take it for a two-weapon-build.
That restriction is for Scimitars only.
Read carefully:
Whirling Dervish wrote: Dervish Finesse (Ex): A whirling dervish can treat a scimitar as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for the purposes of the swashbuckler’s finesse and all feats and class abilities that refer to such a weapon. She must not be carrying a weapon or shield in her off hand to gain this benefit. This ability alters swashbuckler finesse.Dervish Finesse (Ex): A whirling dervish can treat a scimitar as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for the purposes of the swashbuckler’s finesse and all feats and class abilities that refer to such a weapon. She must not be carrying a weapon or shield in her off hand to gain this benefit. This ability alters swashbuckler finesse. They need only have a free hand, if they want their Swashbuckler Finesse to apply to Scimitars. It otherwise functions the same.
@ rub:
ofcause. only 1 shield will apply shield Bonus to AC.
the reason you enhance both shields with armor enhancement, is that the shieldmaster feat allows you to apply your armor enhancement Bonus of your shield to attack and damage rolls. so you buy 2 +5 shields for 50k gp and both will work as a +5 weapon (they would cost 50k each). additionally 1 shield will give you armor Bonus.
So still you run a pretty damn high AC (you get anything a usual TWF build has + 1 shield. wich is +1/+2 depending on the shield +1 for shield Focus +x for enhancement. combined with a high dex and armor Training thats pretty damn awesome. i was at like 36 or sth for Level 8 build). your damage will be almost the same as running e.g. 2 kukris with dex-build. only critical threat is smaller. you basicly trade AC for crit-range but the damage is still good.
@troll: i read that. i want to go for a two weapon build. and if i use 2 weapons as a whirlwind dearwish i lose DEX-mod on attack Bonus. thats pretty much not useful at all. and i cant use shields with that guy. so doesnt make any sense for that build.
so the only ways to get dex on attack and damage when wielding two shields is to either:
use light shields, put +1 and agile weapon enhancement on them
or:
use heavy shield, make them slashing by using weapon versality, pick slashing grace to get DEX on damage and make a dip in swashbuckler to get swashbucklers Finesse to get DEX on attack.
the first way is not perfect cause its pretty damn expensive and you dont wanna enhance your shields as weapons when you are going to pick shieldmaster anyway.
the second way seems very discussable(is that even a word? :D) like wraith mentioned. but i wasnt sure about that way, thats why i asked...
No, you don't lose dex to damage.
That's exactly what I am trying to show you.
You only lose the ability to treat a scimitar as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for the purposes of the swashbuckler’s finesse and all feats and class abilities that refer to such a weapon.
ok, either you are wrong or i´m totally missunderstanding something.
the whirling dervish has:
dervish Finesse.
"A whirling dervish can treat a scimitar as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for the purposes of the swashbuckler's finesse and all feats and class abilities that refer to such a weapon. She must not be carrying a weapon or shield in her off hand to gain this benefit.
This ability alters swashbuckler finesse.
"
and dervish Dance:
"At 4th level, a whirling dervish can use her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier on melee damage rolls when using her swashbuckler finesse. She counts as having the Dervish Dance feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites."
if i use 1 scimitar, everything is fine.
i get DEX on attack by dervish Finesse, and i get DEX on damage by dervish Dance.
if i use 2 scimitars now, i do not get DEX on attack anymore, since when i use dervish Finesse, i "must not be carrying a weapon or shield in her off hand to gain this benefit."
so 2 scimitars -> no dex on attack.
dervish Dance says, i may use DEX on damage "when using her swashbuckler Finesse".
as soon as i use 2 scimitars, i cant use my Finesse anymore. if i am not using my Finesse, im not allowed to use dervish Dance, therefore no dex on dmg.
what did i get wrong?
EDIT:
ok i got it i guess.
I go for 4 Levels in wirhling dervish. i use 2 heavy spiked steelshields (melee, one handed, piercing). i may use swashbucklers Finesse with them, cause they are piercing and one handed. I may use dervish Dance with them, because i may use swashbucklers Finesse with them.
so with 4 Levels it would work out, thx man!
If you wield a second weapon, or have a shield, you cannot finesse Scimitars. The Swashbuckler's Finesse still otherwise functions as normal.
Basically, the only thing different, is that, in addition to all the other things a Swashbuckler can finesse, they can also finesse a Scimitar, but to get that specific effect, you can't wield a second weapon, or a shield.
The Dervish Dance ability, allows you to get Dex to damage, with anything that you can finesse with Swashbuckler's Finesse. This otherwise, has no additional restrictions.
A Klar with WF and Slashing Grace gets dex to hit and damage.
ACG wrote: Swashbuckler Finesse (Ex): At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and she can use her Charisma score in place of Intelligence as a prerequisite for combat feats. This ability counts as having the Weapon Finesse feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites. ACG wrote: Slashing Grace (Combat)
You can stab your enemies with your sword or another slashing weapon.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with chosen weapon.
Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.
So, Klar normally not finessable. Once you have Slashing Grace, it counts as a 1 handed piercing weapon for feats and class features, and Swashbucklers finesse means you can use Weapon Finesse with 1 handed piercing weapons. Thus, it backbuilds Weapon Finesse to work with whatever weapon you take Slashing Grace for.
You can do this at level 1, with WF(Klar) and Slashing Grace(Klar). But yes, I was incorrect you still need the dip to swashbuckler or Daring Champion Cavalier (not necessarily a bad thing for the parry deed).
wraithstrike wrote: The "weapon versatility" is questionable since it is not a permanent change.It allows you to deal a different damage type, but it does not change the property a weapon has. As an example you can use a sword as an improvised weapon to do bludgeoning damage, but that does not make it a bludgeoning weapon.
In a home game a GM will probably let it go, but if this is for PFS it expect table variation.
This sort of piggybacks on the recent FAQ regarding alternative attributes on skill checks. link
Specifically:
Quote: Also, this changes the check only at the time of rolling
Serisan wrote: wraithstrike wrote: The "weapon versatility" is questionable since it is not a permanent change.It allows you to deal a different damage type, but it does not change the property a weapon has. As an example you can use a sword as an improvised weapon to do bludgeoning damage, but that does not make it a bludgeoning weapon.
In a home game a GM will probably let it go, but if this is for PFS it expect table variation.
This sort of piggybacks on the recent FAQ regarding alternative attributes on skill checks. link
Specifically:
Quote: Also, this changes the check only at the time of rolling The feat doesn't work that way though. You DON'T get the option it pick at the roll. It takes a swift action then a swift action to change. You could wake up, pick up your weapon and as long as you don't drop it, it stays that damage. Don't sleep and you can have it be that damage forever. For instance, a Wyrwood could have his shield do slashing damage nonstop for years if they wanted.
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