Paladins and Evil outsiders


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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The Exchange

There was a very interesting debate at a PFS table the other night. A paladin who was sitting at the table made that comment that laws don't apply to outsiders. So if an outsider is evil then they are free to kill them. No questions asked. And that this point was reinforced by the fact that smite evil works on them.

The same extends to evil dragons and undead. While I can get on board with undead for some paladins. Both the evil dragons and Outsider thing seems at the very least boarderline.

This has never been my understanding of the Paladin Code. And seems very similiar to the 'i'm going to drop a holy smite and if anyone else is hurt by it oh well' way of thinking. Does anyone know of anything offical that proves or disproves this?


He wrong.


I think the entire plane of Axis would disagree about laws not applying to outsiders. As would any outsiders who came to local areas and agreed to follow the local laws while present.

(Anything from the Malestrom, on the other hand, would probably nod its head and agree that laws don't apply to them... XD)


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Page 60 CRB:
Through a select, worthy few shines the power of the divine. Called paladins, these noble souls dedicate their swords and lives to the battle against evil. Knights, crusaders, and lawbringers, paladins seek not just to spread divine justice but to embody the teachings of the virtuous deities they serve. In pursuit of their lofty goals, they adhere to ironclad laws of morality and discipline. As reward for their righteousness, these holy champions are blessed with boons to aid them in their quests: powers to banish evil, heal the innocent, and inspire the faithful. Although their convictions might lead them into conflict with the very souls they would save, paladins weather endless challenges of faith and dark temptations, risking their lives to do right and fighting to bring about a brighter future.

Role: Paladins serve as beacons for their allies within the chaos of battle. While deadly opponents of evil, they can also empower goodly souls to aid in their crusades. Their magic and martial skills also make them well suited to defending others and blessing the fallen with the strength to continue fighting.

Page 63-64 CRB:
Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

I see nothing in the Code that prevents a paladin from killing evil out of hand. In fact, the role of a paladin is to be a deadly opponent of evil.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
JustALemming wrote:

There was a very interesting debate at a PFS table the other night. A paladin who was sitting at the table made that comment that laws don't apply to outsiders. So if an outsider is evil then they are free to kill them. No questions asked. And that this point was reinforced by the fact that smite evil works on them.

Characters like these are a godsend. Just like a certain nutjob billionaire running for President, is mana from heaven for a comedian.

Let's introduce somme NPC's here.

Acting under the directions of an evil awakened horse who heads the Evil Legion of Evil, the mad wizard Horrible polymorphs and then feebleminds a group of villagers into the shape of demons. He then projects his throughly evil alignment on to them and places them where a certain Paladin is known for his mindless zealotry, and lets things ride their course. These villagers have so few hit points, he probably won't even notice that it wasn't the smite evil that killed them.


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Oh hey. Paladin thread. Welp, time to take a shot.

JustALemming wrote:

There was a very interesting debate at a PFS table the other night. A paladin who was sitting at the table made that comment that laws don't apply to outsiders. So if an outsider is evil then they are free to kill them. No questions asked. And that this point was reinforced by the fact that smite evil works on them.

The same extends to evil dragons and undead. While I can get on board with undead for some paladins. Both the evil dragons and Outsider thing seems at the very least boarderline.

This has never been my understanding of the Paladin Code. And seems very similiar to the 'i'm going to drop a holy smite and if anyone else is hurt by it oh well' way of thinking. Does anyone know of anything offical that proves or disproves this?

OK. I know that killing sentient beings isn't exactly the most paragon goody-good thing to do. But, ummm... Why exactly are we arguing against killing devils, demons, and daemons again? Pretty sure that leaving them alive is not really a great thing in general.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

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I'm not sure how this factors into Society adventures. As far as I know, there haven't been these kinds of "nice guy devil" traps.

Evil outsiders act on the material world with malice, trying to win souls for their own advancement in the lower planes. Evil dragons exrt such power on the world that bards sing of their terrible wrath for generations.

In either case, a paladin has been invested by her god with the strength of arm and the divine power to champion purity and justice.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Generally it's not a problem in PFS. If you encounter a demon or devil, most cases, you have more than ample reason to slay it back to the netherworld it came from.


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My most paladin-esque character, Voren, would disagree (not least because this paladin sounds like he would smite him for being a tiefling).

Voren: "Whether or not one is 'inherently' evil is irrelevant. What matters is whether one chooses to do evil."

Grand Lodge

Interestingly, I had a character who would agree with this. Especially regarding summoned outsiders. On the other hand he was Chaotic Neutral and insane (Groetus worshiper.)

With regards to summoned outsiders, I could see the arguement that they don't belong here, are just here to make trouble, and that killing them doesn't hurt them (the summon is just a projection of them after all, I think?)

Harder with physically present outsiders, certainly it would be legitimate to argue that they don't belong and give them the choice of banishment or death (at least in the case of ones that can leave on their own) provided you have some way to enforce it.

On the other hand, an evil outsider called and bound by a neutral or good caster to serve them is not really here of it's own will, and may not even be able to do much evil if the caster is careful (though it will sure try!) In fact it may be bound here just to keep it out of trouble elsewhere!


Like many questions about morality, this has no cut and dried absolute answer. It depends on the context and circumstances.

Expect table variation.

-j


Vutava wrote:

My most paladin-esque character, Voren, would disagree (not least because this paladin sounds like he would smite him for being a tiefling).

Voren: "Whether or not one is 'inherently' evil is irrelevant. What matters is whether one chooses to do evil."

*high fives Voren*

But yeah the Paladin is wrong for the most part certain laws would apply to them(Outsiders, Dragons, and Undead) depending on the circumstance and setting if a Devil or Demon is hurling around fireballs and such at buildings in a village sure go ahead and Smite away but if they're just there not bothering anyone just trying to bring down the Holy Thunder on them is something you shouldn't really be doing.

Dark Archive

I don't personally think there is anything in the paladin code that would prevent the killing of evil outsiders. A particular paladin may wish to redeem or capture them, but that would be more personal choice. The last paladin I played had a run-in with demons as part of his backstory and thus viewed the destruction of evil outsiders as both a good act and his primary mission as a paladin (also it was personal, but there's nothing evil about enjoying your job).

Good-aligned evil outsiders are interesting concepts but also something I mistrust as a kind of trap. The creation of an evil outsider is the refinement and purification of evil souls and conversion of such a creature would be very antithesis to it's nature (probably a process with a high likelihood of self-destruction). Devils, demons and the like may be intelligent but unlike the PC races they don't get a choice of alignment and this is intended. It is their very nature to be and to do evil and to not do so would be like a human living without a heartbeat. How often do you look at someone who is demonstrably alive and wonder "Is their heart beating?" That is how strange it would be for a PC to wonder about the alignment of an evil outsider.

As you may have caught on I actually view evil outsiders to be more clear cut evil than most evil creatures. Tornadoes can cause great destruction, ending the lives of many innocents, but the tornado is not evil, so why is a zombie? The person who made the zombie and let it loose is evil, but the zombie itself is as mindless and destructive as a natural disaster.

For these reasons good evil outsiders should be used sparingly if at all. Also remember that if your Good Evil Outsider sees a paladin talking is a free action which can be preformed not on their turn. A Good Evil Outsider should try to surrender (and the paladin gets a sense motive).

Grand Lodge

I can think of at least one special with a bait and switch: you are defending a city against demons and

Spoiler:
Encounter a tense situation between a Chelish noble woman and town guards. She has summoned devils to protect her and her belongings, as well as defend the city, from demons.

As an aside, unless your god's paladin code (if being used from Inner Sea Gods) requires killing them on sight, you may run into some real issues for just killing something because "it's evil". Some gods with paladins (those more focused on the Lawful aspect, such as Abadar and Irori) may take issue with that. Also, enjoy adventuring in Geb with the undead thing.


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In cheliax...

Paladin: "AHAH FOUL DEVIL! I smite at thee! Someone fetch the magistrate!

Devil: "I'm already here...."


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the actual statement was "He's an evil outsider, the laws of this plane don't apply to him." Not lawful outsiders, not neutral outsiders, not neutral clerics that channel to harm. EVIL outsiders.

Why is a mindless zombie evil? because it was animated/powered by negative energy. Here on the Prime plane its considered evil.

"Pushing" evil alignment aura on mind controlled blah blah blah what the hell are you talking about? At that point you are as bad as the OP who tried to twist words and spin it in any direction except for the argument at hand.

A Paladin is LG equipped with something called Smite Evil that specifically states "If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses Double damage against evil outsiders" There doesn't seem to be any grey area in that.

Then came the example of a baby green dragon just hatched. Which none of that had anything to do with the statement about evil outsiders.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant but not sure why peeps always feel the need to figure out ways to try and pull a paladin down.


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Michael Dupler wrote:
the actual statement was "He's an evil outsider, the laws of this plane don't apply to him." Not lawful outsiders, not neutral outsiders, not neutral clerics that channel to harm. EVIL outsiders.

Being lawful and being evil are not mutually exclusive.

As aluded to above, this is something thats going to vary greatly by locale. The idea that the laws don't apply to someone just because of their extraplanar status is baseless and silly.

Quote:
Why is a mindless zombie evil? because it was animated/powered by negative energy. Here on the Prime plane its considered evil.

They also have a habbit of mindlessly attacking any food source they see.

Quote:
A Paladin is LG equipped with something called Smite Evil that specifically states "If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses Double damage against evil outsiders" There doesn't seem to be any grey area in that.

Detect evil smite evil is a good way to fall, quickly.

Quote:
Sorry if this sounds like a rant but not sure why peeps always feel the need to figure out ways to try and pull a paladin down.

You might want to include a bit of the post you're responding to.


Michael Dupler wrote:


Why is a mindless zombie evil? because it was animated/powered by negative energy. Here on the Prime plane its considered evil.

Negative Energy isn't considered evil.

Michael Dupler wrote:


A Paladin is LG equipped with something called Smite Evil that specifically states "If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses Double damage against evil outsiders" There doesn't seem to be any grey area in that.

I'd like to point out that the Evil Subtype is that the Subtype sticks with an Outsider(along with the Evil Aura) even if their actual alignment isn't Evil so just seeing a Devil, Demon, Daemon, etc. and detecting and Smiting Evil on it isn't a good way to see that it is evil and shows that a Paladin like any other person should have some critical thinking.


Dread Knight wrote:
Vutava wrote:

My most paladin-esque character, Voren, would disagree (not least because this paladin sounds like he would smite him for being a tiefling).

Voren: "Whether or not one is 'inherently' evil is irrelevant. What matters is whether one chooses to do evil."

*high fives Voren*

But yeah the Paladin is wrong for the most part certain laws would apply to them(Outsiders, Dragons, and Undead) depending on the circumstance and setting if a Devil or Demon is hurling around fireballs and such at buildings in a village sure go ahead and Smite away but if they're just there not bothering anyone just trying to bring down the Holy Thunder on them is something you shouldn't really be doing.

So the paladin have to wait for the demon to start hurting innocent to proceed to smite a demon?

Grand Lodge

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Or give indication it's going to hurt someone. It being a demon is a good reason to keep a close eye on it, but is (usually) not enough to jump straight to smite town.

Grand Lodge

Look at it this way. Paladins are LG. Lawful Good. you need to meet both halfs of it. I don't agree that following local law is the only path to lawful, but it is the easiest for the GM to hadle at the table. Flat out, at my table, if you don't know your gods' specific code I am going to assume you have to follow the local law as well as the good aspect. Remember, if you become NG, LN, or any alignment but LG you become an EX-paladin.

Sovereign Court

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Well, to be fair, most legal codes in Golarion, would be humanoid-centric; with the exception of places like Cheliax (for devils), Geb (for undead), and Irrisen (evil fey), I doubt there are many places that would view evil outsiders/undead/dragons/et cetera as citizens, let alone consider them to have any rights or privileges under the prevailing legal code.


"The laws don't apply to evil outsiders" is an incorrect statement: it is factually wrong.

"A paladin can smite all evil outsiders with impunity" is an opinion that can and will be argued. A lot. Repeatedly.

Also note that "devil" and "demon" and "daemon" are completely differently creatures, and they operate by different rules.


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Since an evil outsider can achieve risen status, see at the very least Wrath of the Righteous AP, I can see an argument to be made against smiting any evil outsider and the same applies to chromatic dragons, I forget the term for good aligned ones. I even dimly remember there is a good aligned ghost dragon somewhere. So paladins should probably hold on the smiting until the critter in question does something the paladin can say is inarguably evil in his presence, like kicking a puppy.

Grand Lodge

There is a very simple logic tree for Paladins-

Step 1: Is this an (evil) creature that I have fought before? If yes go to Step 6, if no go to Step 2.

Step 2: Do I possess the appropriate Knowledge skill in order to identify this creature? If yes go to Step 5, if no go to step 3.

Step 3: Is the creature being hostile to myself, my friends or a perceived non-combatant? If yes go to Step 6, if no go to Step 4.

Step 4: Does the creature 'detect' as evil? If yes go to step 6, if no go to Step 5.

Step 5: Is the creature willing to parlay and/or stand-down? If yes resolve parlay, if no go to Step 6.

Step 6: Kill it!

Shadow Lodge

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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Socalwarhammer wrote:

There is a very simple logic tree for Paladins-

Step 1: Is this an (evil) creature that I have fought before? If yes go to Step 6, if no go to Step 2.

Step 2: Do I possess the appropriate Knowledge skill in order to identify this creature? If yes go to Step 5, if no go to step 3.

Step 3: Is the creature being hostile to myself, my friends or a perceived non-combatant? If yes go to Step 6, if no go to Step 4.

Step 4: Does the creature 'detect' as evil? If yes go to step 6, if no go to Step 5.

Step 5: Is the creature willing to parlay and/or stand-down? If yes resolve parlay, if no go to Step 6.

Step 6: Kill it!

I was right there with you until you got to step 4. Detecting as evil is not, in and of itself, a reason for a paladin to kill something. For one thing there are reasons a non-evil being might detect as evil. For another, past performance is no guarantee of future results.


Doesn't a redeemed outsider with the (evil) subtype still ping as evil?

Grand Lodge

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Doesn't a redeemed outsider with the (evil) subtype still ping as evil?

Yes. As would any creature under the effects of Infernal Healing, regardless of their actual alignment.


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On the other hand...

"Hey! Evil people aren't allowed in the Society! THAT PATHFINDER'S A BLOODY SPY!"
"No, wait, that's only for the organized pl—urk!"


The CN cleric of lamashtu that runs a home for orphan monsters also pings as evil.

Grand Lodge

Canonically, can you redeem an outsider with an aligned plane?

Since they are basically manifestations of spiritual energy shaped by the plane their alignment pulled them towards, wouldn't they just turn into an outsider from a different plane?

That said, I believe there is a canonical example of an outsider "stained" by longer exposure to an alternate alignment, who are in the process of turning into a different type of outsider.


Jeff Merola wrote:
Or give indication it's going to hurt someone. It being a demon is a good reason to keep a close eye on it, but is (usually) not enough to jump straight to smite town.

Good luck when the demon teleport away to the next town.


There are canonically redeemed (or corrupted) outsiders that kept their forms, yes.

Grand Lodge

Nicos wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
Or give indication it's going to hurt someone. It being a demon is a good reason to keep a close eye on it, but is (usually) not enough to jump straight to smite town.
Good luck when the demon teleport away to the next town.

Being Good isn't easy.

Silver Crusade

pH unbalanced wrote:
Socalwarhammer wrote:

There is a very simple logic tree for Paladins-

Step 1: Is this an (evil) creature that I have fought before? If yes go to Step 6, if no go to Step 2.

Step 2: Do I possess the appropriate Knowledge skill in order to identify this creature? If yes go to Step 5, if no go to step 3.

Step 3: Is the creature being hostile to myself, my friends or a perceived non-combatant? If yes go to Step 6, if no go to Step 4.

Step 4: Does the creature 'detect' as evil? If yes go to step 6, if no go to Step 5.

Step 5: Is the creature willing to parlay and/or stand-down? If yes resolve parlay, if no go to Step 6.

Step 6: Kill it!

I was right there with you until you got to step 4. Detecting as evil is not, in and of itself, a reason for a paladin to kill something. For one thing there are reasons a non-evil being might detect as evil. For another, past performance is no guarantee of future results.

Agreed.


Jeff Merola wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
Or give indication it's going to hurt someone. It being a demon is a good reason to keep a close eye on it, but is (usually) not enough to jump straight to smite town.
Good luck when the demon teleport away to the next town.
Being Good isn't easy.

That was not good guy, but a paladin that didn't care. A demon walks in the street of a little town, at what point does the paladin deal with it? do he have to collect evidence that demons are bad guys? or he have to wait the demon to commit an evil act first?


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Seeking to fight a known evil outsider, undead, or dragon may be impulsive, reckless, and zealous, yet isn't (usually) unlawful or evil.

An intelligent, even-tempered paladin might wait before going to smite, though would certainly keep an eye out and appraise the situation as something is up.

Circumstances could create situations that make exceptions, of course. Chelaxian Paladins would likely have to make all sorts of moral compromises and certainly have a more lawful axis outlook than most paladins (I smite the first devil that breaks their own contracts, etc.). Those are not the usual circumstances, though.

Basically, being reckless isn't being evil. It's just a great way to become a trouble magnet.

Grand Lodge

Nicos wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
Or give indication it's going to hurt someone. It being a demon is a good reason to keep a close eye on it, but is (usually) not enough to jump straight to smite town.
Good luck when the demon teleport away to the next town.
Being Good isn't easy.
That was not good guy, but a paladin that didn't care. A demon walks in the street of a little town, at what point does the paladin deal with it? do he have to collect evidence that demons are bad guys? or he have to wait the demon to commit an evil act first?

As pointed out repeatedly in the thread, there are instances when an "evil outsider" is not only not evil, but will still detect as evil. So any Paladin worth their salt will make damn sure they're doing the right thing by attacking, even if it means more effort tracking them down later. This is not a paladin who doesn't care, and such a Paladin would probably join Mr. Smitesalot in Ex-Paladin land pretty quickly.

Grand Lodge

BigNorseWolf wrote:
The CN cleric of lamashtu that runs a home for orphan monsters also pings as evil.

Any XN cleric of an XE deity will ping as Evil, even though they are, themselves, neutral, and possibly even legal PFS PCs.

Not to mention that I have a CG PC who still pings as Evil, and probably registers as multiple sources of Evil, all on his own.

Spoiler:
He has a mobile tattoo that pings as Evil, he has an Ioun stone orbiting his head that pings as Evil, and he might have other things on or about his person that register as Evil. He, however, is a worshipper of Cayden Caylean, and has even done some work for the temple, at one point, dealing with an infestation of Evil there, including a succubus...

Grand Lodge

Though, at some point you have to ask yourself, the XN cleric of an XE deity has sworn themselves to carry out the wishes of an evil being and expand it's influence in the world, and lead others into it's worship. They may not be evil yet, but if they don't become evil, it is only because they are completely incompetent.

Grand Lodge

Because no one has ever latched on to certain aspects of worship before. It's not about incompetence.


JustALemming wrote:

There was a very interesting debate at a PFS table the other night. A paladin who was sitting at the table made that comment that laws don't apply to outsiders. So if an outsider is evil then they are free to kill them. No questions asked. And that this point was reinforced by the fact that smite evil works on them.

The same extends to evil dragons and undead. While I can get on board with undead for some paladins. Both the evil dragons and Outsider thing seems at the very least boarderline.

There are 2 Parts to answer about this.

1. The basic legal part: When you ignore the known exceptions (Cheliax, Geb, maybe some other evil countries), no offical will usally challenge the decision of the Paladin to kill the Outsider/Undead/Dragon because they are known to be evil and harmful. Exceptions as allways things like 'Slaying the Pet Imp of the Chelish ambassador', 'Kill the devil, that is about to be interrogated by XY' but in most of the countries, i dont see any argument rising when a paladin slays the named monsters on sight.

2. 'But this is Orcus the White, reborn and Lawful Good Prince of the Undead, The Blood Lord' : Creatures that are Type (Evil Outsider/Undead/Dragon) are exactly that except 1 in X (Thousands or higher). So Mr Paladin can be quite sure that every such creature he encounters is evil and willing to harm/enslave/eat/... innocent people. So why should he wait for them to do this harm? Of course, when the course of adventure shows that there is something odd, and Mr. Paladin has a chance to notice that this is the 1 in a million Pit Fiend of friendly goodness, then he shouldn't ignor this fact.

JustALemming wrote:


This has never been my understanding of the Paladin Code. And seems very similiar to the 'i'm going to drop a holy smite and if anyone else is hurt by it oh well' way of thinking. Does anyone know of anything offical that proves or disproves this?

Why only look to the Paladin code, look at the god he believes in.

Some will frown about that approach, some will applaude.

Just my 2Cent


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Just slap 'em with smite evil active. Geez, you guys overcomplicate everything.

The Exchange

Thank you everyone for chiming in. I wasn't trying to villainize anyone, I thought it was an interesting point of view and wanted to see what everyone else thought about it.


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If you want a pretty good story of a paladin dealing with "what makes evil" and "when should I smite", check out the Queen of Thorns and King of Chaos novels in the Pathfinder Tales series

There's an example in King of Chaos where smiting the evil outsider turns out to be the worst decision the paladin could make, and it causes the destruction of hundreds of innocents.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jessex wrote:
Since an evil outsider can achieve risen status, see at the very least Wrath of the Righteous AP, I can see an argument to be made against smiting any evil outsider and the same applies to chromatic dragons, I forget the term for good aligned ones. I even dimly remember there is a good aligned ghost dragon somewhere. So paladins should probably hold on the smiting until the critter in question does something the paladin can say is inarguably evil in his presence, like kicking a puppy.

Those are extremely RARE, in most cases UNIQUE cases. One redeemed demon in Wrath of the Righteous should not cause ANYONE, much less a Paladin to stay her blade against all of the others coming out of the Worldwound for any reason other than tactical. If you see a Red Dragon taking wing, it's still far from unreasonable prejudice to decide it's up to no good.

One redeemed individual does not redeem races with evil tendencies, much less those beings like demons who are chaos and evil INCARNATE.


Gwen Smith wrote:

If you want a pretty good story of a paladin dealing with "what makes evil" and "when should I smite", check out the Queen of Thorns and King of Chaos novels in the Pathfinder Tales series

There's an example in King of Chaos where smiting the evil outsider turns out to be the worst decision the paladin could make, and it causes the destruction of hundreds of innocents.

Just to be clear, the outsider involved was completely and obviously evil. But an evil individual can still manage to serve the greater good, even if it's just by pure coincidence. And all actions have consequences: just because a paladin is justified in smiting evil doesn't mean everything always works out in her favor.

(One reason I like King of Chaos is that these issues are handled from the paladin's point of view, so you get to see the internal struggle. There's also another character struggling with "Wait--am I evil? The paladin keeps saying that, but I think I'm a good guy!" Overall, it's a really good story that happens to deal with these issues using complex, real characters.)

Grand Lodge

LazarX wrote:
Jessex wrote:
Since an evil outsider can achieve risen status, see at the very least Wrath of the Righteous AP, I can see an argument to be made against smiting any evil outsider and the same applies to chromatic dragons, I forget the term for good aligned ones. I even dimly remember there is a good aligned ghost dragon somewhere. So paladins should probably hold on the smiting until the critter in question does something the paladin can say is inarguably evil in his presence, like kicking a puppy.

Those are extremely RARE, in most cases UNIQUE cases. One redeemed demon in Wrath of the Righteous should not cause ANYONE, much less a Paladin to stay her blade against all of the others coming out of the Worldwound for any reason other than tactical. If you see a Red Dragon taking wing, it's still far from unreasonable prejudice to decide it's up to no good.

One redeemed individual does not redeem races with evil tendencies, much less those beings like demons who are chaos and evil INCARNATE.

Unless, of course, it happens to be an arcane caster using any one of the numerous polymorph spells that can make someone appear to be something totally different.

Form of the Dragon I-III lets a Wizard or Sorcerer, or anyone with enough UMD, to take the form of a chromatic or metallic dragon.

Giant Form I-II: Is that Giant a Hill Giant, or a polymorphed sorcerer/wizard?

Reincarnate: What type of creature did that Druid bring the dead being back as? (Just because PCs can't use it, doesn't mean that it is blocked from NPCs)

Shapechange, just so you don't know if that dragon you are looking at is the treant you just saw a moment ago.

Not to mention various Illusion spells that can make something appear totally different, including making nothing seem like something, or vice versa.

"Oh, look, it's a red dragon. Smite it! ... Oh, hey, where'd Ezren go?"

Grand Lodge

pH unbalanced wrote:
Socalwarhammer wrote:

There is a very simple logic tree for Paladins-

Step 1: Is this an (evil) creature that I have fought before? If yes go to Step 6, if no go to Step 2.

Step 2: Do I possess the appropriate Knowledge skill in order to identify this creature? If yes go to Step 5, if no go to step 3.

Step 3: Is the creature being hostile to myself, my friends or a perceived non-combatant? If yes go to Step 6, if no go to Step 4.

Step 4: Does the creature 'detect' as evil? If yes go to step 6, if no go to Step 5.

Step 5: Is the creature willing to parlay and/or stand-down? If yes resolve parlay, if no go to Step 6.

Step 6: Kill it!

I was right there with you until you got to step 4. Detecting as evil is not, in and of itself, a reason for a paladin to kill something. For one thing there are reasons a non-evil being might detect as evil. For another, past performance is no guarantee of future results.

I would argue that 'detecting' as evil is in fact justification for a Paladin to attack an unknown foe. By this point, he/she has never seen or fought this type of foe before, has no knowledge regarding it and has been granted by his/her deity the supernatural power to detect evil at will- not all archetypes have this ability. For those that do- a positive detect evil result can serve as justification for eradication. Now if you would like to revise an affirmative answer to Step 4 to be lead to Step 5 (parlay), fine- different strokes for different folks.

"Lawful Good...(blah, blah, blah). They oppose evil wherever it is found, and avoid putting the good of the individual ahead of what is good for the masses....(more blah, blah)."


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Probably depends on where you're standing. Murderhoboing the town council is probably out. In the middle of a dungeon its probably ok.

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