Do Robes of Arcane Heritage effect Eldritch Heritage

[jbadams]

Simple question:

Do Robes of Arcane Heritage (Ultimate Equipment pg. 216) alter the effective Sorcerer level of Bloodline powers granted via the Eldritch Heritage (Ultimate Magic pg. 149) feat tree? (Improved, Greater)

I didn't realise this was a contentious question until doing a search after responding to the topic "Robe of Arcane Heritage and Eldrich Heritage" and finding loads of topics where the question is hotly debated with no conclusive answer. As this question is off-topic for that discussion I thought I might try starting a new one with the question plainly stated to see if we can get a definitive answer.

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To show that this is genuinely a frequently asked question, here's a brief selection of previous discussions on the topic:
Eldritch Heritage + Robes of Arcane Heritage?
Eldritch Heritage + Robes of Arcane Heritage
Eldritch Heritage and Robe of Arcane heritage.
Sorcerer + Eldritch Heritage feats + Robe of Arcane Heritage
Can a non-Sorcerer with the Eldritch heritage feats use a Robe of Arcane Heritage?

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I understand that asking for FAQ clicks is frowned upon, but given this question has apparently been contentious for years now I'm sure a lot of people would appreciate a definitive response. Apologies if this isn't appropriate, I'm still relatively new here.

[jbadams]

My own interpretation is that a Robe of Arcane Heritage has no effect on Bloodline abilities granted via the Eldritch Heritage feat tree because:

The Robe of Arcane Heritage states that "the wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects", but Eldritch Heritage states that "for purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer" or with Greater Eldritch Heritage "treat your character level as your sorcerer level".

Because the feats are explicitly based off of character level rather than Sorcerer level (even if you actually have Sorcerer levels) the robes (which grant an effective increase in Sorcerer level) would have no effect.

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Also a bonus question:

Do Robes of Arcane Heritage alter the effective Sorcerer level of Bloodline powers granted via other non-Sorcerer-level sources such as Blood Arcanist (Arcanist Archetype), Dragon Disciple, etc.?

[Johnny_Devo]

By strict RAW, i almost feel like it comes down to which you would apply first. If you apply eldritch heritage then robe of arcane heritage, you'll get your character level +2 as sorcerer level for calculating the power. If you apply the robe then eldritch heritage, you'll just end up with a mundane robe.

However, by RAI, I feel like gaining these bonuses is entirely dependent on actually possessing a bloodline, and I'm not sure eldritch heritage should work.

[Kalindlara]

I am also leaning toward the robe not working for Eldritch Heritage.

[Joynt Jezebel]

I am the person who started the thread that lead jbadams to start this one. Well the latest.

And having seen your reasoning I think you are right jbadams.

Why would asking for a FAQ be frowned upon? Especially when it is clearly a FAQ.

[Kalindlara]

sigh

Well, based on the most recent FAQ, I'm disinclined to call for any sort of FAQ.

I say, let the GMs decide. That's what they (used to be) there for. ^_^

[jbadams]

I'm all for letting GMs make decisions or apply house-rules where they see fit, but I would also like to know what the intended interpretation of this particular combination is if possible.

If it turns out I'm wrong and they do work together it would actually benefit a character I'm currently playing, but I'll be suggesting the GM consider house-ruling against the combination as I feel it may make my character slightly overpowered.

Johnny_Devo: so you're saying that if the robes are applied first it gives an effective Sorcerer level that the feat can then modify? What about the fact that the feat states that it applies character level -2 even if you have Sorcerer levels? To me this suggests it would still ignore that effective Sorcerer level even if the robes are applied first.

[Skylancer4]

Kalindlara wrote:

sigh

Well, based on the most recent FAQ, I'm disinclined to call for any sort of FAQ.

I say, let the GMs decide. That's what they (used to be) there for. ^_^

That only works if you aren't playing PFS or have multiple GMs to deal with.

I also would rather know what the design team intended for rules, instead of what people think they can sneak by due to it not being explicitly stated they can't.

That all being said, each feat grants a specific power of the bloodline, which is technically different from actually having a bloodline. There are many many cases where the rules call out something "being like" or "as if" which doesn't mean they are the exact same and interchangeable. It just means "we're saving page space by reference".

Having use of a single power from a bloodline, isn't the same as having the bloodline. Just like taking feats to get use of specific powers that a bloodline has, isn't the same as having a bloodline. The end result can amount to the same, but they are two different paths to similar results. Part of the distinction for me is, at certain levels you wouldn't gain access to the next power if you have the feats. Which if you actually have the bloodline you would.

[jbadams]

Joynt Jezebel wrote:

Why would asking for a FAQ be frowned upon? Especially when it is clearly a FAQ.

As outlined in the sticky topic about the FAQ system, it's seen as suggesting that your topic is more worthy of attention than others - as someone who runs a busy forum myself I can totally empathise with that reasoning.

[Turgan]

Jbadamas: Did you actually read the last of the threads you posted above in its entirety? If not, I recommend it. Esp. the second half of it

I don't get your reasoning - the feat clearly gives you a sorcerer level for the purpose of the bloodline power. Why should it matter that it is based off your character level?

Your sorcerer level concerning the bloodline power increases by +4 with the robe.

A non-sorceror with eldritch heritage donning the robe only gets an effective sorceror level increase of +2 (-2+4) concerning the bloodline - a minor benefit.

Compare it to the monk's robe (usable by all classes) and consider the pricing of the item (if it would only be usable by sorcerors it should cost 30% less).

[jbadams]

Turgan wrote:

Jbadamas: Did you actually read the last of the threads you posted above in its entirety? If not, I recommend it. Esp. the second half of it

I don't get your reasoning

Yes, I did read it, but I'm afraid I remain as unconvinced by your logic as you are by mine; to me it seems perfectly clear, obvious and logical that the item is intended for usage by actual Sorcerers with a full bloodline and not for individual powers granted by Eldritch Heritage, just as I understand you must feel the same about your perspective. Hence hoping for some sort of official clarification.

[Nefreet]

I'm of the belief that they work together. Just like Boon Companion + Animal Ally. But I'm finding that my "things should be the same, or they should be different" approach to the rules is being outpaced by rampant pedantry.

It's certainly a candidate for FAQ.

(I love the first post, btw. Use of bolding, links, research. It's a thing of beauty)

[Abraham spalding]

Got to agree with Turgan here.

You definitely have an effective sorcerer level with the feats, and that would be adjusted by the robes.

The only question in my mind is if eldritch heritage counts has having the bloodline.

Related question(s):

If eldritch heritage does count as having a bloodline how does this bloodline interact with the arcanist's Bloodline Development exploit?

If a sorcerer has eldritch heritage do the robes work with the feat then?

[jbadams]

Nefreet wrote:

(I love the first post, btw. Use of bolding, links, research. It's a thing of beauty)

Thanks! I figure making it as easy as possible gives us the best chance of a FAQ response.

[Ragoz]

These very clearly work together.

Quote:

treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2

Quote:

treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher

They are both treating my sorcerer level as a different level for the purposes of bloodlines. I actually can't see how any other conclusion could be drawn.

[Ragoz]

Anytime you 'Select one sorcerer bloodline.' You have gained the Bloodline. The arcanist and eldritch heritage both use this language.

Abraham spalding wrote:

If eldritch heritage does count as having a bloodline how does this bloodline interact with the arcanist's Bloodline Development exploit?

If the arcanist already has a bloodline (or gains one later), taking this exploit instead allows her arcanist levels to stack with the levels of the class that granted her access to the bloodline when determining the powers and abilities of her bloodline.

Abraham spalding wrote:

If a sorcerer has eldritch heritage do the robes work with the feat then?

Yes of course.

[Turgan]

jbadams wrote:

Turgan wrote:

Jbadamas: Did you actually read the last of the threads you posted above in its entirety? If not, I recommend it. Esp. the second half of it

I don't get your reasoning

Yes, I did read it, but I'm afraid I remain as unconvinced by your logic as you are by mine; to me it seems perfectly clear, obvious and logical that the item is intended for usage by actual Sorcerers with a full bloodline and not for individual powers granted by Eldritch Heritage, just as I understand you must feel the same about your perspective. Hence hoping for some sort of official clarification.

Could you explain your logic in more detail, so that I can understand the importance of character level in the text? Thanks in advance.

[jbadams]

Turgan wrote:

Could you explain your logic in more detail, so that I can understand the importance of character level in the text?

Firstly, I do realise that I specifically called out the phrase 'character level' with bolding in my earlier reply, but my interpretation was based on the larger section of text as a whole (and especially also the following phrase 'even if you have levels in sorcerer') rather than just those specific words.

That being said, I just pulled up all of the references again to try to explain my position more thoroughly and started typing out a detailed explanation, but it seems that "rubber ducking" has kicked in and I've actually talked myself around to your interpretation; I now believe that RAW you are in fact correct and the robes very likely do effect a power granted by Eldritch Heritage, although I remain unconvinced that is the intent.

Thanks for pushing me to go through the relevant rules in detail again, sometimes it just takes one more look for all of the details to properly click! :)

That being said, based on all of the topics I've read there are still plenty of others who hold my original position and the intent of the rules are definitely still in dispute, so I'd still prefer to see a FAQ response if possible.

[Turgan]

Thanks a lot for your elaborate answer. I can see why one would not let it work, but on the other hand you have to really have to put some serious exegesis into it to come to the conclusion that the feat and the item don't work together - Nefreet put that into good words.

To me, the only indication that it was not intended to work together is the beginning of the text of the robe: "When a sorceror..." but some posters went to great lengths to prove that there is not necessarily a causal relation to the next sentence.

You could also argue that the designer of the robe did not think too hard about the first sentence, that also seems to serve some flavour function. "A sorceror" sounds more flavourful than "Anyone who has a bloodline (power)..."

There are some posters on the boards who are very good at explaining and analysing the rules and mostly have it right - three of them were on the pro side in the long thread.
blaphers argued against it, that made me wary, he is a very good rules exegete, but in this case, I believe he is/was wrong.

I don't FAQ this because I find a lot of official answers either dissapointing or even more confusing than what they should explain. I hope this doesn't seem rude - I like the designers/developers work just not their answers to FAQs.

[jbadams]

Turgan wrote:

I don't FAQ this because I find a lot of official answers either dissapointing or even more confusing than what they should explain. I hope this doesn't seem rude - I like the designers/developers work just not their answers to FAQs.

Not at all -- personally I prefer to have a ruling one way or the other and then house-rule to suit a particular group of players if appropriate, but you should of course act as you see fit.

At least I now understand what was the opposing point of view to begin with, but I'd still like to know the actual intent if at all possible, as I'm sure many others would.

[Ravingdork]

It looks to me like they work together just fine.