Dual Identity Feels Like Baggage


Ultimate Intrigue Playtest General Discussion

1 to 50 of 438 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | next > last >>

6 people marked this as a favorite.

Okay, I'm probably going to ruffle some feathers and furs here. That said, my impression upon reading this class stuff basically comes out to:

"Whoa! Awesome! Grab people through doors? Reduce DR? Mimic sounds and throw my voice without having to cast a spell? Choke my enemies so they can't talk? Conceal spell components, negate and reflect enemy spells, take half my ally's damage? Oh my god, I love this! I love it all! I want to use these guys as NPCs, I want to play them as PCs, this is great!

"...so, where's the archetype that cuts out that weird 'dual identity' filler?"

Shadow Lodge

Without dual identity, you are not filling the role of the vigilante who is taking on another identity in order to do things that would otherwise harm their social standing (possibly because those things are illegal and punishable by death).


4 people marked this as a favorite.

It's kinda like the pre-brawler monk, in a way—"Look, I just wanted to pummel things, why do I have to channel life force and max my Wisdom and stuff?"

There are so many awesome abilities, but they come latched on to this huge main ability that is only connected tangentially. So, yeah, sadly, I really want an archetype that just replaces the secret identity rigmarole with more talents or something. :P

Dylos wrote:

Without dual identity, you are not filling the role of the vigilante who is taking on another identity in order to do things that would otherwise harm their social standing (possibly because those things are illegal and punishable by death).

Yup. Yeah. Mm-hm. Yes. That's exactly what I want to do: Not fill that role. Why should I get a secret identity? Most of these talents have nothing to do with it. It's like a gift with purchase—"Look, get this secret identity thing. C'mon. No-one else is buying them, we're crazy overstocked. Here! We'll throw in Hide in Plain Sight! And darkvision! And super sniper skills!"

It's not that I don't like the "secret identity vigilante" concept, but...well, the majority of these talents feel like they'd fit just as well for any class, secret identity or no. Instead, I'm trapped playing Batman/Chopper/Underdog just so I can pull off swift action improvised weapon retrieval (not the best example, but I've already referenced most of my favorites).


1 person marked this as a favorite.

My initial impression of dual identity is not good either. It does as a class feature something that is a skill (Disguise). It has one nice (hiding from scrying while disguised) and two decent (quicker than regular disguise but can't be accelerated more until much higher level, and false alignment but only one step away) improvements to skill. And the restriction to one extra complex identity and only later commoner identities. Meh. I was hoping for a versatile master spy, not masked avenger that has talents of single another class...

Shadow Lodge

I imagine there will be some sort of archetype, likely for another class, that steals some abilities of this class, though I am not certain that it will lose the dual identity. However you could just play in vigilante persona 24/7 like I suspect will happen a lot in PFS.

Silver Crusade

I agree with the sentiments above. Just looking at Dual Identity (and Renown) through the lens of PFS play, I can't figure out the relevance during a scenario. It seems like an awesome concept for an longer campaign or even Adventure Path, though. Maybe folks will play the Vigilante during the scenario and use their +4 for day job rolls as others suggested. Regardless, I'm still excited about this and I'll give it a try at my next PFS session and see for myself.

Grand Lodge

6 people marked this as a favorite.

Makes for an okay Batman, but the vigilante spy, who takes on multiple common disguises, is not really happening.

I want my Michael Westen.


Which is all well and good, but I hate having to ignore such a major class component. It works okay for tinkered-with NPCs (what the players don't know won't hurt them) but a PC has to take the whole package.

This really is the Batman class, and the flavor feels forced on us.

Shadow Lodge

Aside from the +4 on dayjobs, I could possibly see the social persona utilized in some of the more social scenarios, though it'll likely result in "Hey, what happened to Bruce Wayne, and why is this guy in spandex here instead?"

Grand Lodge

3 people marked this as a favorite.

I'M THE GOD_DAMN BATMAN!!!


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Quiet down, Crazy Steve. Your Batman disguise isn't fooling anyone.

F&@#ing rogues trying to muscle in on the Vigilante's turf...

Grand Lodge

Well, it accurately describes the flavor.

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I think I agree with this. It can work for NPCs and for PCs in a single-player adventure, but the dual-identity thing does not seem to have an obvious application to conventional Pathfinder play.

There could certainly be special cases where it's great. But it really feels like it's an NPC class, and someone wanted to be able to make NPC Batman.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I could see myself playing it, but it feels kinda narrow in its roleplaying options. "I hide half of my life" is a pretty big roleplaying aspect to encompass a whole class.

Nitpicking: And what are the implications for settings? Are "vigilantes" rare? Why are they a base class, then? And if they aren't, why does anybody trust scrying spells? It seems like people would work out the telltale signs of vigilantes quite quickly.

That said, now I really want to play a mute (or occasionally mute) vigilante with a chainsaw and a mask. :)

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Makes for an okay Batman, but the vigilante spy, who takes on multiple common disguises, is not really happening.

I want my Michael Westen.

Check out level 9. Mundane identity

The mundane identity is not a specific individual. Each one is created at the moment it is assumed, and quickly forgotten as soon as it is removed.

There is your Michael Weston (Though it could use a talent or two to boost it to let you emulate nobles, experts, etc.)


3 people marked this as a favorite.
blackbloodtroll wrote:
I want my Michael Westen.

You just made me want to roll up a beer guzzling, womanizing dwarf named Sam Axe.

Grand Lodge

FLite wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Makes for an okay Batman, but the vigilante spy, who takes on multiple common disguises, is not really happening.

I want my Michael Westen.

Check out level 9. Mundane identity

The mundane identity is not a specific individual. Each one is created at the moment it is assumed, and quickly forgotten as soon as it is removed.

There is your Michael Weston (Though it could use a talent or two to boost it to let you emulate nobles, experts, etc.)

I suppose I could imagine him at 9th level.

Shame you couldn't have something like that earlier.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I think I might like the class better as a PC class if the dual-identity stuff were a vigilante talent of the Stalker sub-class, or something like that, and the basic class structure got some other bonuses to offset the loss.

I've been looking for high-level social modules that this might work in, to playtest a party of vigilantes, but I'm not finding anything. It doesn't seem to be the kind of mechanic that Golarion and its modules support well. Reign of Winter might work well, or a bizarrely (awesomely?) variant on Skull and Shackles I guess. Those aren't quick playtests though.

Grand Lodge

Cthulhudrew wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
I want my Michael Westen.
You just made me want to roll up a beer guzzling, womanizing dwarf named Sam Axe.

I support this.


Lose dual alignment altogether, or else the whole class is unplayable. Have Neutral be a requisite alignment choice on either axis, or else the whole class is bogged down with arbitrary table rules - or worse - more book-keeping for players and GMs.

Neutral is the justification for the dual-alignment stuff. Just do it that way. Don't reinvent the wheel.


9 people marked this as a favorite.
B.A. Ironskull wrote:
Neutral is the justification for the dual-alignment stuff.

This much ain't true. Neutral is justification for not acting particularly one alignment or another—no major standards, no major heinousnesses. It's not "Do evil things and ping as Chaotic Neutral".

"Do evil things and put Chaotic Neutral on your character sheet" is a vigilante class feature.

...

Wait. I think my players already wrote this class.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Speaking of Michael Westen, I'd like to see a little more "Oomph!" in the Environmental Weapon ability. As is, it seems like its both slightly more powerful and slightly weaker (situational) than the Improvised Weapon feat. Perhaps the weapon should get a favored terrain bonus to hit/damage like a Ranger?

(And I think I'll drop this in another thread, if I see one that seems appropriate.)

I need my Michael Westen to be able to Macgyver himself up some damaging weapons to use on the bad guys.


I'm citing Neutral to eliminate the LG Johnny Lunchpail/CE Jastor of Doom dichotomy that the Vigilante class suggests is possible. As a GM I don't want to keep track of Jekyll/Hyde; as a player the same is true.

Vigilantes, like all classes, should have one alignment, and that should reflect story, class, and race (and etc.) background. Another set of alignment rules is not necessary, especially for a new class with a ton of subsystems.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The Identities' alignments still need to be one step within eachother


2 people marked this as a favorite.

The whole mechanic seems forced. Also it does not really seem to accomplish anything.

As has been mentioned before it is rather unplayable by PCs. Also, secret identities have been around for quite some time without needig this mechanic.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
thorin001 wrote:
As has been mentioned before it is rather unplayable by PCs. Also, secret identities have been around for quite some time without needig this mechanic.

Ah, but this is a Double Secret Identity.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Also, for all Jekyll's talk of "pure good vs. pure evil", I'm pretty sure he falls around Neutral on the actual alignment spectrum. He tries to cover for Hyde way too long to be anything more. Which, if anything, is a very interesting commentary on the coexistence of concepts of "pure good" and "pure evil".


3 people marked this as a favorite.

I like the secret identity, but some of the Warlock powers feel like they're on the wrong side. I've got all my casting in both identities (I think?)… but I can only cast without being observed while I'm not in my social identity. I can only cast from a wand I've stored in my arm when I'm not trying to maintain a low profile.

All I've ever wanted was the ability to cast Charm Person on somebody in a social situation without getting tackled by security. That's it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I've tried to make a Synthesist Summoner with a secret identity. Pretty much helpful and tries to show up and save the day in the vein of Japanese transforming heroes. I've only gone through this twice but the rest of the party will go through hell and high water to unmask you even thought out of character they know who you are. Its like this psychological thing where people want to break an illusion even though they know it's an illusion. Its like the skeptic at a magician's show. We all know its a trick but there's this guy there obsessed with proving how fake it is. So far I cannot keep a secret identity for crap so I do kind of feel that the whole double identity thing is kind of roleplay baggage than a boon.

Although overall I feel like this class is kind of useless outside an urban setting so I don't think this class belongs everywhere.

Mechanically you don't have to wear a mask though. You could just take off your glasses.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
QuidEst wrote:

I like the secret identity, but some of the Warlock powers feel like they're on the wrong side. I've got all my casting in both identities (I think?)… but I can only cast without being observed while I'm not in my social identity. I can only cast from a wand I've stored in my arm when I'm not trying to maintain a low profile.

All I've ever wanted was the ability to cast Charm Person on somebody in a social situation without getting tackled by security. That's it.

Spellcasting in your social guise is weird. You keep your first-level spellcasting and lose your higher-level spellcasting.

Quote:
The base ability and bonus class skills apply when the vigilante is in either of his identities, but all of the other abilities are available only when he is in his vigilante identity, unless stated otherwise.

Contributor

5 people marked this as a favorite.
thorin001 wrote:
The whole mechanic seems forced. Also it does not really seem to accomplish anything.

Except for being a foolproof way to completely thwart divination magic that tries to connect you to your secret identity?

I mean, seriously, this is a martial class (3/4 spellcasting if you take warlock or zealot) that has an ability that LITERALLY does something that no spell can currently do: foil divination effects so hard that they only pop up as "black." How is that nothing?

This isn't a class that you're going to be able to drop in Shattered Star and have it work, no. But Kingmaker? Hell's Rebels? Wrath of the Righteous? Those are ALL APs where having a secret identity that no one expected would be super useful.

From his lair in the City of Locusts, Deskarii slams his fist into his table.
"What do you MEAN you can't find him?! Work your magic, Abyssal worm! I WANT THE GOLD BARON'S HEAD AND I WANT IT NOW!"


QuidEst wrote:

I like the secret identity, but some of the Warlock powers feel like they're on the wrong side. I've got all my casting in both identities (I think?)… but I can only cast without being observed while I'm not in my social identity. I can only cast from a wand I've stored in my arm when I'm not trying to maintain a low profile.

All I've ever wanted was the ability to cast Charm Person on somebody in a social situation without getting tackled by security. That's it.

You keep charm person while non-social; just people will notice.

In fact, be like the Hulk and say in your Vigilante (non-social) at all times. Occassinally, he reverted but usually says in combat form.

Sure, you might be better with combat form. Only benefit is start one step nicer attitude if stick around town a week. And you can do that prior to meeting the dude with security.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Terminalmancer wrote:
Spellcasting in your social guise is weird. You keep your first-level spellcasting and lose your higher-level spellcasting.

"What do you mean, Stefan is secretly Chirurgeon Strange? Preposterous! Everyone knows the fool can't manage more than a simple prestidigitation!"


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kobold Cleaver wrote:


This really is the Batman class, and the flavor feels forced on us.

Don't you mean the *Blackjack* class? ;-)

(Also sort of reminds me of Zorro)

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I completely agree with Alexander Augunas. I feel Dual Identity is being undervalued.

I can even see it working really well in PFS scenarios. Most PFS scenarios take place in one location or have you sent from Absalom to another town with plenty of downtime before talking to the next major NPC. You would have plenty of time to gain renown and make use of your social.


Cthulhudrew wrote:
Terminalmancer wrote:
Spellcasting in your social guise is weird. You keep your first-level spellcasting and lose your higher-level spellcasting.
"What do you mean, Stefan is secretly Chirurgeon Strange? Preposterous! Everyone knows the fool can't manage more than a simple prestidigitation!"

So if I start in social, prepare spells, and switch… am I just stuck with only first-level spells prepared? Agreed on the "weird" part.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Cyrad wrote:

I completely agree with Alexander Augunas. I feel Dual Identity is being undervalued.

I can even see it working really well in PFS scenarios. Most PFS scenarios take place in one location or have you sent from Absalom to another town with plenty of downtime before talking to the next major NPC. You would have plenty of time to gain renown and make use of your social.

Is it weird, that I cannot remember a single scenario, with "downtime"?

Contributor

2 people marked this as a favorite.
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Cyrad wrote:

I completely agree with Alexander Augunas. I feel Dual Identity is being undervalued.

I can even see it working really well in PFS scenarios. Most PFS scenarios take place in one location or have you sent from Absalom to another town with plenty of downtime before talking to the next major NPC. You would have plenty of time to gain renown and make use of your social.

Is it weird, that I cannot remember a single scenario, with "downtime"?

If you're talking about downtime as it exists in Ultimate Campaign, sure. There's none.

If you're talking about time that the PCs would normally use to gather information or shop, then a large majority of the scenarios have time to let you do that. I'm also willing to bet that by the time the final class is released, if something ends up not working without some special modifications to the rules, the PFS team will add house rules to make the ability worthwhile.

John and Mike are pretty baller like that, so let's not split hairs over whether or not you'll have the time to use these abilities in PFS. That's a society problem and not a vigilante problem.


Alexander Augunas wrote:


I mean, seriously, this is a martial class (3/4 spellcasting if you take warlock or zealot) that has an ability that LITERALLY does something that no spell can currently do: foil divination effects so hard that they only pop up as "black."

I haven't studied it carefully, but how is that not something Mind Blank does? Is is just that Dual Identity can do it below 15th level?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I haven't played with the character yet, but honestly the dual identity thing is the main thing that made me immediately want to build a character. It's actually kinda fun if you embrace it. My social side doesn't wear the Belt of Mighty Strength, for instance, or several of my AC items. My vigilante wields a warhammer, but that's to bulky and obvious for my social side -- my social side only has a blade boot and a sap.

Granted, I'm using the Avenger specialization. It seems from reading that a lot of the complaints come from people looking at the spellcasting options. Maybe it's just one or two of the specializations that are really that off?


4 people marked this as a favorite.

I hope there is a "Human Target" archetype that allows you to adopt the identity of another in order to bodyguard them.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I like Dual identity.

I also admit this character is not for all campaigns. It's interesting that in 2E I once tried to do a zorro/Scarlet Pimpernel character and Roleplay out the secret identity.

It failed pretty bad since we weren't really city based.

I LOOOOVE that there is a mechanic for it now. Something that can add a little superhero flavor to my fantasy games :D


6 people marked this as a favorite.
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
This really is the Batman class, and the flavor feels forced on us.

Everyone knows that Bruce Wayne is really the fake identity, and Batman is the real one. ;)

Grand Lodge

Alexander Augunas wrote:

I'm also willing to bet that by the time the final class is released, if something ends up not working without some special modifications to the rules, the PFS team will add house rules to make the ability worthwhile.

John and Mike are pretty baller like that, so let's not split hairs over whether or not you'll have the time to use these abilities in PFS. That's a society problem and not a vigilante problem.

Actually, no, they really aren't. I mean, they are awesome, and I like them, but they don't do house rules.

Most, (but not all) scenarios have a few hours downtime before undertaking the mission, or getting on a boat to where the mission is. (and if you get on a boat, doing renown is not really useful.) But most, taking a week or so to get started is going to fail you the scenario.

Some start in Absalom, with travel to somewhere else, in which case renown does you no good at all.

Part of the play test, or at least part of the play test for people in PFS is going to be "how does this character fit into PFS and should they be allowed." So, it may not be relevant to anyone else, but it is going to be relevant to us.

(I still want to see an all vigilante party play scars of the third crusade. Really, really a lot.)

Contributor

2 people marked this as a favorite.
137ben wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:


I mean, seriously, this is a martial class (3/4 spellcasting if you take warlock or zealot) that has an ability that LITERALLY does something that no spell can currently do: foil divination effects so hard that they only pop up as "black."
I haven't studied it carefully, but how is that not something Mind Blank does? Is is just that Dual Identity can do it below 15th level?

Great question, because its really quite subtle. This is from mind blank. "n the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn't detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all."

"Any attempts to scry or otherwise locate the vigilante work only if the vigilante is currently in an identity known to the creature attempting to locate him. If he is in an identity unknown to the creature, the spell or effect has no effect, revealing nothing but darkness as if the target was invalid or did not exist."

The biggest difference isn't a mechanical one; it is something much more subtle. A motivational difference.

For instance, if Bruce Wayne ran around with a permanent mind blank spell, people might be suspicious. What's he got to hide? Why is he always mind blanked? A permanent mind blank effect isn't cheap, after all. Maybe Bruce WANTS the Joker to scry on him every once and a while when he's feeling suspicious. Dual Identity effectively only allows you to protect what matters (your identity) all the time. Not to mention Dual Identity can't be dispelled, suppressed, and requires absolutely no magical skill whatsoever.

Contributor

1 person marked this as a favorite.
FLite wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:

I'm also willing to bet that by the time the final class is released, if something ends up not working without some special modifications to the rules, the PFS team will add house rules to make the ability worthwhile.

John and Mike are pretty baller like that, so let's not split hairs over whether or not you'll have the time to use these abilities in PFS. That's a society problem and not a vigilante problem.

Actually, no, they really aren't. I mean, they are awesome, and I like them, but they don't do house rules.

How PFS handles firearms is a house rule. (You need the gunsmithing feature to purchase a firearm.)

The Day Job mechanic is a house rule. (it is assumed core for PFS, but the closest that it has ever come to being printed in the Pathfinder RPG core rules is as a gp-only version of the capital system in Ultimate Campaign.)

Fame and Prestige (specifically the ability tying purchasing power to it) is a house rule. (One that partially got lifted for Ultimate Campaign, but it still counts.)

The lack of crafting (and the alchemist, investigator, and gunslinger's subsequent breaking of that rule) are both house rules.

You can call them Organized Play rules if you like, but they're still variations of the core Pathfinder RPG rules, which makes them house rules. It just so happens that PFS's house spans the entire globe. ;-)

Grand Lodge

8 people marked this as a favorite.

On the other hand, is the very uniqueness a dead giveaway?

If I have someone who sometimes is a valid target, and sometimes is not, how long before word gets out that this is a defining characteristic of vigilantes?

I would rather it read: "Any attempts to scry or otherwise locate the vigilante work only if the vigilante is currently in an identity known to the creature attempting to locate him. If he is in an identity unknown to the creature, the spell or effect has no effect, revealing nothing but darkness as if the target was invalid or did not exist. had made it's saving throw."


FLite wrote:

On the other hand, is the very uniqueness a dead giveaway?

If I have someone who sometimes is a valid target, and sometimes is not, how long before word gets out that this is a defining characteristic of vigilantes?

I would rather it read: "Any attempts to scry or otherwise locate the vigilante work only if the vigilante is currently in an identity known to the creature attempting to locate him. If he is in an identity unknown to the creature, the spell or effect has no effect, revealing nothing but darkness as if the target was invalid or did not exist. had made it's saving throw."

Yes. This NEEDS to be implemented. Perhaps with a clause that no-save effects treat the target as if they didn't exist, but I don't even know if there are any no-save scrying effects.

Grand Lodge

Alexander Augunas wrote:
FLite wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:

I'm also willing to bet that by the time the final class is released, if something ends up not working without some special modifications to the rules, the PFS team will add house rules to make the ability worthwhile.

John and Mike are pretty baller like that, so let's not split hairs over whether or not you'll have the time to use these abilities in PFS. That's a society problem and not a vigilante problem.

Actually, no, they really aren't. I mean, they are awesome, and I like them, but they don't do house rules.

How PFS handles firearms is a house rule. (You need the gunsmithing feature to purchase a firearm.)

The Day Job mechanic is a house rule. (it is assumed core for PFS, but the closest that it has ever come to being printed in the Pathfinder RPG core rules is as a gp-only version of the capital system in Ultimate Campaign.)

Fame and Prestige (specifically the ability tying purchasing power to it) is a house rule. (One that partially got lifted for Ultimate Campaign, but it still counts.)

The lack of crafting (and the alchemist, investigator, and gunslinger's subsequent breaking of that rule) are both house rules.

You can call them Organized Play rules if you like, but they're still variations of the core Pathfinder RPG rules, which makes them house rules. It just so happens that PFS's house spans the entire globe. ;-)

Yes, they put limits on the availablity of things. And they create some new systems (though very rarely, and only typically on things that affect everyone.) But when a class has a feature that doesn't work in OP, they just drop it entirely. If you are lucky they give you a free feat to make up for it. If you are unlucky, they just drop the whole class. They do not house rule the class feature.

Liberty's Edge

Two things:

One: yes, people in a given setting will eventually learn that Vigilantes are a thing, and that sometimes they can't be scried. That still doesn't mean they'll automatically know who your secret identity is, though. It might mean that they'll start looking for your secret identity using normal methods... but that's a good thing, it adds tension and conflict, which is always good for storytelling.

Your Social Identity starts hearing about this big bad that's asking around about your Vigilante Identity... suggesting that he may has sussed out the fact that you have a secret identity. How should you take steps to make sure the villain doesn't discover your secret? That's what adds more layers of interest to a story... an entire adventure can revolve around trying to keep your identity safe from someone who's figured out that you're a Vigilante.

And Two: I'm pretty sure the Arcane Training talents still apply in your Social Identity. Your base spellcasting ability is your Specialization ability, and the other talents modify that. I could be wrong, but that's the way it looks to me... some clarification in the language on that one would certainly help everybody out.

1 to 50 of 438 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Archive / Pathfinder / Playtests & Prerelease Discussions / Ultimate Intrigue Playtest / General Discussion / Dual Identity Feels Like Baggage All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.