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So in the bossfight, the archer paladin (follower of Sarenrae) got his 1 hit kill with a confirmed arrow to the chest.
With the battle over, he whispers into the unconscious dying man's ear who he is, then proceeds with a cdg by beheading.
Paladins are LG, does this action carry any risk for his alignment or paladin legitimacy?
It's more common for your average barbarian or hellknight to do this.
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Potential alignment infraction for G-E axis and L-C axis, but there's no catch all and it should be something negotiated with the GM.
Here are some questions to ask:
Lawful-Chaotic: Is killing this person violating regional laws? Does the Paladin's Deity approve of this action? Is the Paladin violating their Code of Conduct?
Good-Evil: Is the kill necessary? What are the motivations? Did the opponent attempt to surrender? Can they present any realistic threat anymore?
CDG is probably not a good action, but it is also contextually not evil. It is also likely not a lawful action, but it is contextually not chaotic.
Here's a similar thread that might be useful to continue this discussion.
Hope this is somewhat helpful!
EDIT: Fixed typos.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Potential alignment infraction for G-Eaccessaxis and L-Caccessaxis
Sorry, I usually don't correct spelling, but those were confusing me.
CDG is probably not a good action, but it is also contextually not evil. It is also likely not a lawful action, but it is contextually not chaotic.
I would disagree on both these points. CDG is an evil act, but one that may be balanced by good. If the PC believed that death was the only way to stop the villain from continuing to kill, it may be an evil act of CdG balanced by a greater good act of ending a rein of terror, meaning the paladin's alignment does not shift (but he has still committed an evil act and should probably feel some remorse for it, and may want to atone (with a lower case a) by meditating or doing other acts.)
Absent any other rules (a formal duel setting requiring you to accept surrender when your opponent goes unconscious, a specific paladin code, etc.) this doesn't seem chaotic to me.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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The faith of Sarenrae mandates that you give people at least one chance to repent/surrender. It doesn't demand that you keep on offering after people turn it down.
Also, there's a Lawful Good Empyreal Lord of proper executions (Dammerich). Premeditated killing, in PF, isn't necessarily evil. Some people have it coming.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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The faith of Sarenrae mandates that you give people at least one chance to repent/surrender. It doesn't demand that you keep on offering after people turn it down.
Also, there's a Lawful Good Empyreal Lord of proper executions (Dammerich). Premeditated killing, in PF, isn't necessarily evil. Some people have it coming.
But note *proper* execution. His other spheres are judiciousness and responsibility (and we know almost nothing about him unless you have sources I don't) And his symbol is a dove on an executioners axe. That doesn't prove that execution is not evil, it could as easily prove that it is evil but necessary, and that the lawful good part is in only doing it when there is no other choice and doing it in a way that is as fast as possible and without rancor. It could also indicate that execution is only good when sanctioned judiciously. (not my preferred interpretation, but a feasible one.)
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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You all left out the important question here.
The character is a Paladin of Sarenrae. By the use of summary execution, the Paladin ended any chance of his victim's redeeming himself. Was the person he executed beyond all hope of redemption? (Exception: followers of Rovagug are automatically assumed to be so, by Sarenrae's doctrine. No questions would be asked in such a case.)
I think this is a very good point.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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But note *proper* execution. His other spheres are judiciousness and responsibility (and we know almost nothing about him unless you have sources I don't) And his symbol is a dove on an executioners axe. That doesn't prove that execution is not evil, it could as easily prove that it is evil but necessary, and that the lawful good part is in only doing it when there is no other choice and doing it in a way that is as fast as possible and without rancor. It could also indicate that execution is only good when sanctioned judiciously. (not my preferred interpretation, but a feasible one.)The faith of Sarenrae mandates that you give people at least one chance to repent/surrender. It doesn't demand that you keep on offering after people turn it down.
Also, there's a Lawful Good Empyreal Lord of proper executions (Dammerich). Premeditated killing, in PF, isn't necessarily evil. Some people have it coming.
Finally found his write up.
Yeah, I would say he does not consider execution a good act. Only a necessary one to prevent greater evil. And he takes on all the guilt of others so that they can do their jobs. If it isn't an evil act, why would there be any guilt?
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Last post for a bit.
I think the biggest problem in all this is the word "safely."
I think a paladin should have a very good reason for coup de grace (outside of combat at least. Inside combat I think "I didn't want him getting healed and then hitting us with a massive negative channel" is a pretty good reason.) and should always be careful that it met his code.
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Technically, Coup de Grace is french originally, and it means 'cut of grace'. This was a mercy killing, so that the victim of some horrible wounds would no longer suffer from them, and die quickly.
It has changed since roleplaying games took it up, I guess, as a way to finalize death, making sure it happened what with easy and quick healing often available.
As with many things paladin, intent has much to do with the rightness of an action. Different gods will have different guides for their paladins, such as Seranrae or Iomedae listed above.
Whispering in his ear before killing him seems like taunting, definitely un-paladin like. Though maybe not taunting as the criminal was unconscious and technically couldn't hear him, making the paladin look more like he is a bit insane (and chaotic).
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I think the idea was so that he could tell the gods who sent him so that they could judge the criminal / judge the execution. I'm not sure, I guess it would matter how it was done. I could see a lot of really lawful reasons for it. (Letting his spirit know who killed him so that if it had a grievance it could find him when he died.)
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First, at some had pointed before, aligment has and will always been to table variation. Some think Coup the grace is always evil, some never it is.
I think it means the same as swing a weapon. It´s evil? Not necesarily, but depending the situation an intent.
Why was the paladin making the kill? There was another posibility (lend him to authorities or something)?
Also, he would need to explain how this matches with his faith in Sarenrae. He don´t let the bad boss an oportunity to repent (Also take account you can force him to always give everyone this oportunity, because he fall the very first time he make a one shot kill)
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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For all her patience and gentleness, however, she is no victim: if it becomes clear that her efforts are wasted, she responds to violence and predations upon the innocent with cleansing fire and scorching light.
- The best battle is a battle I win. If I die, I can no longer fight. I will fight fairly when the fight is fair, and I will strike quickly and without mercy when it is not.
- I will redeem the ignorant with my words and my actions. If they will not turn toward the light, I will redeem them by the sword.
- I will not abide evil, and will combat it with steel when words are not enough. I do not flinch from my faith, and do not fear embarrassment. My soul cannot be bought for all the stars i n the sky.
- I will show the less fortunate the light of the Dawnflower. I will live my life as her mortal blade, shining with the light of truth.
Paladins of Sarenrae aren't just peace-loving. They're completely prepared to fight if necessary. I'd say they should try to capture/redeem enemies where possible, but they're no victims and if that's not possible or if it would endanger innocents, then enemies will die.
CdG to prevent an enemy from rising and continuing to fight are fine. There's a clear tactical need there. Executions after combat are a different matter. It depends on the severity of crimes of course; execution for jaywalking is absurd. But assuming these are seriously bad people, they should still get one chance to repent. Tie them up, wake them up with smelling salts. If they take the offer, jail them or bring them to a temple (we have only a 4-hour game after all). If they refuse, redemption by the sword it is.
So yeah, when I play my Sarenite paladin, I do generally start out nonlethal or at least shouting at people to surrender. Remember, people can talk out of turn, so you don't have to give up your turn or anything. If they don't surrender when capable, violence is legitimate. At that point live capture becomes "sincere effort", rather than "at any price".
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As with almost all things Paladin, if a player at my table wants to do it, I ask if/how they reconcile it with their code. If they can answer me, I let them do it.
"Good" does not mean "nice" - Paladin has been my favorite class ever since I started playing, and I've run the gamut from almost-gullible Dudley Do-Right to borderline going-LE by using terror and fear against that PC's enemies, openly reveling in the destruction of his foes, and in no uncertain terms telling NPCs that he'd be back for them once the greater evils were dealt with (my current level 14 Iomedean Oath of Vengeance Paladin who loved helping the Vampires out in Carrion Crown because it meant that afterwards he could give the Shining Crusade their home address and directions - called it his "spring break" from Mendev).
If a Paladin's player has a vision for how their PC handles their code, and they can justify it at the table to you, you're allowed to challenge it, but remember that this is not a home game - unless it is blatant and/or flies in the face of GM advice/warnings - the most you should do is make a notation on their chronicle sheet (which becomes "evidence" if things keep happening down the line for future GMs to act upon).
I agree that more context is needed.
An execution is certainly not nice, yet if used as a tool of law and to fight evil, certainly not an evil act. I could argue that it is meant to be a tool of last resort, yet we are talking about a fantasy world where resurrection / reincarnation is a possibility.
Executing someone in such a way to prevent resurrection muddies the water of this discussion even more. In general, yes, a paladin can safely CDG so long as it is used in a lawful manner to clearly fight evil, and if such an act is not excessive.
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I also know of at least one faction mission (Old Taldan one, IIRC) which asks for virtually this set of actions from its members.
"Let X (and only X) know why he is being executed, then kill him."
CdG is not evil. If a GM uses it on PCs when it is uncalled for, it can be a jerk act. Especially at low levels when the PC isn't likely to have the wherewithal to afford a raise dead, yet.
Potentially, killing a helpless person can be an evil act, but is not necessarily one.
Killing a prisoner, someone who surrendered to you, is likely an evil act.
Killing someone who got knocked out, or stabilized, may not be an evil act, depending on the target. Jim Bob, Mook #3, might be redeemable, if shown kindness. Cassandra, the high priestess of Rovagug. probably not.
Location, also, has an effect. Inside Absolom, it is easy enough to deliver a prisoner to the lawful authorities. At the foot of the central mountains on the Kortos Isle? Not so easy, and could, easily, backfire, by allowing evil meanie to wake up and start negative channeling again while moving them for hours on end to get to some place with legal figures.
There is no cut-and-dried answer. None.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I also know of at least one faction mission (Old Taldan one, IIRC) which asks for virtually this set of actions from its members.
"Let X (and only X) know why he is being executed, then kill him."
yeah, but that is from back when the policy was "Faction missions never count as committing evil deeds, because you are just following orders."
Fortunately they fixed that.
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But note *proper* execution. His other spheres are judiciousness and responsibility (and we know almost nothing about him unless you have sources I don't) And his symbol is a dove on an executioners axe. That doesn't prove that execution is not evil, it could as easily prove that it is evil but necessary, and that the lawful good part is in only doing it when there is no other choice and doing it in a way that is as fast as possible and without rancor. It could also indicate that execution is only good when sanctioned judiciously. (not my preferred interpretation, but a feasible one.)The faith of Sarenrae mandates that you give people at least one chance to repent/surrender. It doesn't demand that you keep on offering after people turn it down.
Also, there's a Lawful Good Empyreal Lord of proper executions (Dammerich). Premeditated killing, in PF, isn't necessarily evil. Some people have it coming.
Finally found his write up.
Yeah, I would say he does not consider execution a good act. Only a necessary one to prevent greater evil. And he takes on all the guilt of others so that they can do their jobs. If it isn't an evil act, why would there be any guilt?
Believe me buddy, I've tried telling people about The Weighted Swing, they ain't listening, even to one of his paladins.
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It could also indicate that execution is only good when sanctioned judiciously. (not my preferred interpretation, but a feasible one.)That's not particularly feasible in a system where chaotic good and lawful good have equal billing.
That's just one emoyreal lords interpretation, it doesn't have to be feasible or make sense to others.
Though I wouldn't try to apply writeup of the viewpoint of one deity to followers of other deities, either. As a GM I wouldn't expect the worshipper of Gorum to have the same views on CDG as a follower of Damerrich or Asmodeus or any other deity. I would only consider dinging someone on alignment if they do something that severely deviates from the norm for their deity.
As far as paladins go, it would definitely depend on what deity they worship. If they worshipped Shelyn or Korada or one of the more laid back, peace loving NG/LG deities I would want a good reason for the CDG. But, that is the problem. It's pretty much impossible to make a blanket statement that all CDG's are evil, since it's impossible to cover all of the possible situations.
