double weapons and effortless lace


Rules Questions


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

so... can you apply effortless lace to one end of a double weapon to make both ends finesseable?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm going to say no.


It should work with a Taiaha, as it's a one handed double weapon. Adding the lace makes it a light double weapon. Either that or it's a light weapon you can use two handed...


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

well double weapon specifically says when you use both ends of the weapon they count as a one-handed and light weapon.

Double wrote:
You can use a double weapon to fight as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. You can choose to wield one end of a double weapon two-handed, but it cannot be used as a double weapon when wielded in this way—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

I don't see anything wrong power wise(not that that's an issue here) and you can already enchant both ends separately, so i'm not sure if one end counts specifically as a two-handed weapon.


Bandw2 wrote:
well double weapon specifically says when you use both ends of the weapon they count as a one-handed and light weapon.

LOL Well it's treated both two weapons AND one weapon. Some game effects treat it as one or the other. I don't think it's a balance issue in any way, it's just in a weird place with the rules. It really depends on whether or not the lace will work on something that "counts as a one handed weapon' or is it only works on weapons that are actually one handed weapons.


Bandw2 wrote:

well double weapon specifically says when you use both ends of the weapon they count as a one-handed and light weapon.

Double wrote:
You can use a double weapon to fight as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. You can choose to wield one end of a double weapon two-handed, but it cannot be used as a double weapon when wielded in this way—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.
I don't see anything wrong power wise(not that that's an issue here) and you can already enchant both ends separately, so i'm not sure if one end counts specifically as a two-handed weapon.

It only works that way for the purposes of TWF'ing penalties. For all other purposes double weapons are still 2-handed weapons.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Arachnofiend wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:

well double weapon specifically says when you use both ends of the weapon they count as a one-handed and light weapon.

Double wrote:
You can use a double weapon to fight as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. You can choose to wield one end of a double weapon two-handed, but it cannot be used as a double weapon when wielded in this way—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.
I don't see anything wrong power wise(not that that's an issue here) and you can already enchant both ends separately, so i'm not sure if one end counts specifically as a two-handed weapon.
It only works that way for the purposes of TWF'ing penalties. For all other purposes double weapons are still 2-handed weapons.

so.... i get +3 from power attack? I doubt this.


5 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

I'm actually interested in this enough personally to think it could use a FAQ.

Specifically: when does a Double Weapon count as a two-hander and it's separate weapons count as a one-handed and light weapon? and can these individual halves of the weapon be treated as one-handed or light for feats, spells, and effects.

example: Is there a difference between being the target of an effect and how the effect determines what happens. So does a double weapon count as a two-hander for prereqs of feats like slashing grace but power attack treats it as a one-hander and light for determining it's effect.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Sometimes, you grab one end of your double weapon with both hands and simply swing the other end like you're using a 2H weapon. When used this way, it IS a 2H weapon, it doesn't let you get an extra attack from TWF, and you get 1.5x STR modifier and +3 damage from Power Attack just like with any other 2H weapon.

Other times, you hold your double weapon in the middle with both hands and swing just ONE end repeatedly at your oppoenent. When used this way, that end is treated as a one-handed weapon with normal STR modifier and only +2 damage from Power Attack, and you don't get an extra attack from TWF. This is the most ineffective way to use a double weapon.

The rest of the time, you hold your double weapon in the middle with both hands and swing both ends at your opponent. When used this way, you MAY (but not "must") gain one extra attack from TWF with the normal penalties for a one-handed and a light off-hand weapon, including normal STR modifier and +2 damage from Power Attack on the one-handed end and only 1/2 STR modifier and only +1 damage on the light (off-hand) end.

The only benefit I can see to using Effortless Lace is to apply it to the one-handed end of the weapon to make it light so it would be eligible for Weapon Finesse. This would not change the damage modifier or the effectiveness with Power Attack.

However, the text of Effortless Lace is very specific about only applying it to one-handed weapons. Every double weapon I can find is on the "Two Handed Weapons" chart, making all of them ineligible for Effortless Lace to be used. The description of "Double Weapons" says the user can fight with them "as if" using a one handed weapon, but this does not make them actual one-handed weapons, so I doubt the RAW would allow the lace to be applied.

Edit: Graystone mentioned the stone-aged Taiaha as a one-handed double weapon, I can see no reason the Effortless Lace would not work with this weapon, though I would restrict it to only using the spear end as primary since the lace doesn't work on bludgeoning weapons, so the bludgeoning end would have to be the off-hand end.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

The only reason i'm considering it as possible RAI or a sketchy RAW is that you can enchant both ends separately, and thus could probably be effected differently by effects, such as weapon finesse and power attack as you mentioned.


DM_Blake wrote:

Sometimes, you grab one end of your double weapon with both hands and simply swing the other end like you're using a 2H weapon. When used this way, it IS a 2H weapon, it doesn't let you get an extra attack from TWF, and you get 1.5x STR modifier and +3 damage from Power Attack just like with any other 2H weapon.

Other times, you hold your double weapon in the middle with both hands and swing just ONE end repeatedly at your oppoenent. When used this way, that end is treated as a one-handed weapon with normal STR modifier and only +2 damage from Power Attack, and you don't get an extra attack from TWF. This is the most ineffective way to use a double weapon.

The rest of the time, you hold your double weapon in the middle with both hands and swing both ends at your opponent. When used this way, you MAY (but not "must") gain one extra attack from TWF with the normal penalties for a one-handed and a light off-hand weapon, including normal STR modifier and +2 damage from Power Attack on the one-handed end and only 1/2 STR modifier and only +1 damage on the light (off-hand) end.

The only benefit I can see to using Effortless Lace is to apply it to the one-handed end of the weapon to make it light so it would be eligible for Weapon Finesse. This would not change the damage modifier or the effectiveness with Power Attack.

However, the text of Effortless Lace is very specific about only applying it to one-handed weapons. Every double weapon I can find is on the "Two Handed Weapons" chart, making all of them ineligible for Effortless Lace to be used. The description of "Double Weapons" says the user can fight with them "as if" using a one handed weapon, but this does not make them actual one-handed weapons, so I doubt the RAW would allow the lace to be applied.

Taiaha, as it's a one handed double weapon.


Bandw2 wrote:
The only reason i'm considering it as possible RAI or a sketchy RAW is that you can enchant both ends separately, and thus could probably be effected differently by effects, such as weapon finesse and power attack as you mentioned.

Yes, but how you enchant weapons is NOT restricted by type. Enchanting a dagger, a longsword, or a greatsword is all the same - 2,000gp and poof! +1.

Double weapons (except the taiaha) are all Two-Handed weapons that can be used "as if fighting with two weapons" which is NOT the same thing as actually being two weapons. There are special rules for enchanting each end separately but they are still 2H weapons which invalidates them for Effortless Lace.

If Effortless Lace said "When wrapped around the grip of a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon, or around one end of a 2H weapon that can be used as if it were not a 2H weapon, for 24 hours" then I would say go for it. But it says no such thing.

Therefore, I think the RAW is clear here - only use the lace on weapons that actually are 1H weapons.

As far as house rules, yeah, I'd totally allow the lace on double weapons. Rule of cool. You should too, if you want.

Grand Lodge

Yup.

Taiaha is all you got.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

@ DM_Blake, i feel it's a bit much to think items would be written with double weapons in mind, since they're the only weapons capable of this. I mean when you actually look at them they do appear to always work as a one-handed weapon. you can two hand it sure but just like you can a longsword, and then you ultimately devote one hand to each half. I know this is not particularly RAW but i'd like to get it FAQed since I believe RAI would most likely be on my side of this. there is no mechanical distinction between 2 sawtooth blades and a double weapon. (except for disarming anyway)


Maybe.

But this feels pretty clear. FAQs are for clearing up ambiguities in the rules. This is not ambiguous. What you want is an erratum to actually change what they wrote so that it works a different way.

While I agree with you that it would be cool for it to work this way and would generally add to the fun of the game, I don't know that it needs an erratum. I'd suggest just houseruling it to whatever you want.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
DM_Blake wrote:

Maybe.

But this feels pretty clear. FAQs are for clearing up ambiguities in the rules. This is not ambiguous. What you want is an erratum to actually change what they wrote so that it works a different way.

While I agree with you that it would be cool for it to work this way and would generally add to the fun of the game, I don't know that it needs an erratum. I'd suggest just houseruling it to whatever you want.

I feel it is ambiguous largely due to the fact that the rules are written in a way that double weapons are an anomaly. they weren't written with their existance and thus need some rules to cover how they interact with feats.

Like I said if they only count as light and one-handed for TWF penalties and I'm wielding it in two-hands(one to each end), do I get +3 from power attack to both attacks? since i'm wielding a two-handed weapon as it's supposed to be wielded? Double doesn't say anything else about how the weapon's wieldign changes for either attack other than TWF penalties. I doubt this and thus believe that other effects probably ALSO effect double weapons.

would you preferred if i asked if i got +3 power attack on both double weapon attacks? I wouldn't as then they'd probably make a very closed answer and not clear up exactly what happens when you TWF with a double weapon.

Scarab Sages Developer

It does not, as either RAI, or as RAW for anything except double weapons that are actually classified as one-handed weapons.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:

It does not, as either RAI, or as RAW for anything except double weapons that are actually classified as one-handed weapons.

extremely debateable, as once again this would mean unless the weapon is handled differently in certain situations (which is what i'm looking to clarify in the actual FAQ post) this would mean i get +3 from power attack and would benefit from THW fighter stuff.

IT doesn't mention in double weapon that you change your wielding from a normal THW when using it as two-weapons. meaning if we're going on straight RAW i get 1.5 str to both attacks. Obviously this isn't the case, so I want to know if it applies only to feat's that specify how the effect works(such as power attack), or if i can also have one of the ends act as a one-handed weapon for prerequsites for spells and effects(such as slashing grace or effortless lace).


Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:

It does not, as either RAI, or as RAW for anything except double weapons that are actually classified as one-handed weapons.

Cool, but then what happens when you put the lace on a Taiaha? Could you finesse both ends? Can you still count one end as two handed? We've entered some weird territory here.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
DM_Blake wrote:


Other times, you hold your double weapon in the middle with both hands and swing just ONE end repeatedly at your oppoenent. When used this way, that end is treated as a one-handed weapon with normal STR modifier and only +2 damage from Power Attack, and you don't get an extra attack from TWF. This is the most ineffective way to use a double weapon.

I don't actually see anything confirming this either. :/


http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9t7t

By this precedent, you can't apply the Effortless Lace to a two-handed weapon, even if that weapon can be considered less than two-handed by someone.


graystone wrote:
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:

It does not, as either RAI, or as RAW for anything except double weapons that are actually classified as one-handed weapons.

Cool, but then what happens when you put the lace on a Taiaha? Could you finesse both ends? Can you still count one end as two handed? We've entered some weird territory here.

Not really.

The Effortless Lace does not work on bludgeoning weapons, and one end of the Taiaha is bludgeoning, so don't put the lace on that end - or more specifically, you put the lace on the one-handed weapon (because it is bludgeoning OR piercing so it qualifies), but the lace would only affect the piercing attacks.

So, to finesse both ends while using TWF, you make your off-hand attacks with the bludgeoning end because the off-hand attacks are normally treated as light weapons anyway so no lace needed, and you make your primary attacks with the piercing end which is treated as a light weapon thanks to the lace. Finesse both ends. Normal STR and Power Attack on the piercing attacks, half STR and half Power Attack on the bludgeoning off-hand strikes.

Note that if you're NOT using TWF (you can use either end as you like but you're not getting the extra attack from using TWF), then you have no "off-hand" attacks so none of them are automatically considered light. The lace still only affects the piercing attacks, so in this case you could make one-handed finessed attacks with the piercing end and/or one-handed non-finessed attacks with the bludgeoning end and every attack is normal STR damage and normal Power Attack, even the blunt ones.

And yes, you can always swing a one-handed weapon (which the taiaha is, regardless of whether you put effortless lace on it) with two hands, getting x1.5 STR and +3 benefits from Power Attack in the process.

Weird rules, eh?


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

yeah i'm more concerned that it appears you can only either TWF or two-hand a double weapon. might make it not work.

also @ mithral this is a quality of the weapon itself not armor being mithralized.


Bandw2 wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:


Other times, you hold your double weapon in the middle with both hands and swing just ONE end repeatedly at your oppoenent. When used this way, that end is treated as a one-handed weapon with normal STR modifier and only +2 damage from Power Attack, and you don't get an extra attack from TWF. This is the most ineffective way to use a double weapon.
I don't actually see anything confirming this either. :/

Why not?

Could you pick up a longsword and shortsword and, in a round, just attack with only the longsword? You would be holding the shortsword but not attacking with it - in effect it would be the same as holding a teddy bear in your other hand, meaning, no effect.

If you did that, you would be making all your normal one-hand attacks with your longsword, even though you actually do have a light weapon (that you're not using) in your off-hand. No extra TWF attack, no TWF penalties, just normal longsword attacks.

This is confirmed by this FAQ.

Since using a double weapon lets you fight as if you had two weapons, then you can do anything with your double weapon that you could do with two weapons. Easy peasy.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
DM_Blake wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:


Other times, you hold your double weapon in the middle with both hands and swing just ONE end repeatedly at your oppoenent. When used this way, that end is treated as a one-handed weapon with normal STR modifier and only +2 damage from Power Attack, and you don't get an extra attack from TWF. This is the most ineffective way to use a double weapon.
I don't actually see anything confirming this either. :/

Why not?

Could you pick up a longsword and shortsword and, in a round, just attack with only the longsword? You would be holding the shortsword but not attacking with it - in effect it would be the same as holding a teddy bear in your other hand, meaning, no effect.

If you did that, you would be making all your normal one-hand attacks with your longsword, even though you actually do have a light weapon (that you're not using) in your off-hand. No extra TWF attack, no TWF penalties, just normal longsword attacks.

This is confirmed by this FAQ.

Since using a double weapon lets you fight as if you had two weapons, then you can do anything with your double weapon that you could do with two weapons. Easy peasy.

"You can use a double weapon to fight as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon."

feels like a whole package, you can only do that if you twf.


Melkiador wrote:

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9t7t

By this precedent, you can't apply the Effortless Lace to a two-handed weapon, even if that weapon can be considered less than two-handed by someone.

Taiaha is one handed.

DM_Blake wrote:
graystone wrote:
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:

It does not, as either RAI, or as RAW for anything except double weapons that are actually classified as one-handed weapons.

Cool, but then what happens when you put the lace on a Taiaha? Could you finesse both ends? Can you still count one end as two handed? We've entered some weird territory here.

Not really.

The Effortless Lace does not work on bludgeoning weapons, and one end of the Taiaha is bludgeoning, so don't put the lace on that end - or more specifically, you put the lace on the one-handed weapon (because it is bludgeoning OR piercing so it qualifies), but the lace would only affect the piercing attacks.

So, to finesse both ends while using TWF, you make your off-hand attacks with the bludgeoning end because the off-hand attacks are normally treated as light weapons anyway so no lace needed, and you make your primary attacks with the piercing end which is treated as a light weapon thanks to the lace. Finesse both ends. Normal STR and Power Attack on the piercing attacks, half STR and half Power Attack on the bludgeoning off-hand strikes.

Note that if you're NOT using TWF (you can use either end as you like but you're not getting the extra attack from using TWF), then you have no "off-hand" attacks so none of them are automatically considered light. The lace still only affects the piercing attacks, so in this case you could make one-handed finessed attacks with the piercing end and/or one-handed non-finessed attacks with the bludgeoning end and every attack is normal STR damage and normal Power Attack, even the blunt ones.

And yes, you can always swing a one-handed weapon (which the taiaha is, regardless of whether you put effortless lace on it) with two hands, getting x1.5 STR and +3 benefits from Power Attack in the process.

Weird rules, eh?

Can you put the lace on the whole Taiaha as it's one handed and has the correct weapon type? What about a Mere club? Does it switch between light and one handed depending on how you use it? What about a piercing weapon that I use the weapon versitility feat on? Does it stop being light if I do B damage?

I have to say, I'm from the camp that say that it doesn't matter what damage you deal as long as the weapon qualifies for the ability. Doing it the other way leads to abilities blinking on and off wierdly.


Bandw2 wrote:

"You can use a double weapon to fight as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon."

feels like a whole package, you can only do that if you twf.

You're assuming that just because they mention penalties for ONE possible way to fight with two weapons that they are also prohibiting all other ways to fight with two weapons. They are not; your assumption is flawed.

Here, I'll add some parenthetical clarifications that don't change the meaning of that sentence in ANY way at all:

"You can use a double weapon to fight (in all ways) as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties (if penalties apply, such as when making an extra attack) associated with fighting with two weapons (but of course, if fighting with two weapons in such a way that no penalties apply, it is not necessary to apply penalties), just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon."

That modification to the sentence uses more words but does not change the meaning in any way at all. Obviously, the developers used their more succinct version because it saves space by reducing word count.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

it's more like I assume fighting with two weapons assumes that you're actually fighting with two weapons and not half using them or ignoring one.

I still want to know when double weapons count as a light and one-handed weapon and when they don't.


Bandw2 wrote:

it's more like I assume fighting with two weapons assumes that you're actually fighting with two weapons and not half using them or ignoring one.

I still want to know when double weapons count as a light and one-handed weapon and when they don't.

As has been said by many people already it only counts as one handed and light when using it to two weapon fight. In all other ways you treat it as a 2 handed weapon. There is absolutely nothing (other than wishful thinking) that suggests it counts as one handed and light at any other time.

You seem hung up on this because you want it to work, but the simple fact is it doesn't.

In other news I'm not 100% sure DM_Blake is entirely correct in his interpretation that you can use a double weapon as a onehanded weapon if you aren't TWF, but I certainly wouldn't stop someone using a weapon in a suboptimal way based on a very strict interpretation of the rules.


Bandw2 wrote:

I'm actually interested in this enough personally to think it could use a FAQ.

Specifically: when does a Double Weapon count as a two-hander and it's separate weapons count as a one-handed and light weapon? and can these individual halves of the weapon be treated as one-handed or light for feats, spells, and effects.

example: Is there a difference between being the target of an effect and how the effect determines what happens. So does a double weapon count as a two-hander for prereqs of feats like slashing grace but power attack treats it as a one-hander and light for determining it's effect.

You should probably write this again and use effortless lace as an example. That would get you an answer to your specific question, and maybe even a more general question. Having it as its own thread is more likely to get it votes also.

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