Bloodline Familiars: Are they a fair trade?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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I was browsing the Familiar rules for a Wizard/Psion character I made for a game and came across "Bloodline Familiars" from the Familiar Folio on the SRD page for them.

At first glance, it seemed straightforward, and kinda neat: Trade your 1st level Bloodline power (for a select number of Bloodlines) and get a Familiar.

Then on a second glance I noticed the second trade-off: "in addition, the character gains bonus spells from her bloodline one level later than she normally would."

The Sorcerer already gets Bloodline spells a level later than it should, who thought it was a good idea to take a neat option and make it terrible just so they can tack on amazing options like "The damage dice of each of the familiar's natural attacks increases by one die step." (because, you know, Sorcerers use their Familiars for combat!)?

This was so close to being something cool and worth taking, with a very straightforward trade. Why did it have to go so wrong? =(


Because familiars are amazing, while claws/weak laser beams are not. Familiars are creatures, which means you have more action economy and versatility. Familiars with hands and the ability to speak can use wands. Flyers can toss around caltrops. Owls can stealthily scout. Goats can flank. Compsognathuseseseses give you a free Improved Initiative (which stacks with the actual Improved Initiative feat). And you can slap Archetypes on them to make them even moar amazing.

My favorite is a greensting scorpion Protector. +4 init, +2 AC, and +50% effective HP increase to the master at all times. Keep it snug as a bug in a Familiar Satchel, a mundane item, to give it full cover, and it won't get picked off by AoE spells. Now you don't have to be paranoid about losing it.

Really, familiars are so amazing that I strongly consider taking VMC wizard (divination) on many of my characters.


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The Arcane Bloodline gets a Familiar (or an Arcane Bond: Sorcerer's choice!) as its 1st power.

Meaning trading the 1st level Bloodline Power on its own would be a fair trade.

Not shifting your already late bonus spells back another level, to the point you're getting your 2nd level Bonus Spell at the same time you're getting 3rd level spells.


You're cherry picking what many consider to be the best bloodline in the game. Look, I can cherry pick too: do you really think trading out draconic's claws for a familiar is a balanced trade?

As for the combat familiars, remember that Bloodragers can swap for these too.


I don't...but that's not the point.

The abilities are meant to be equivalent. Paizo failed miserably at making that even remotely true, but that's supposed to be the case.

So trading one for another should be an even trade.

This is not even close to an even trade.


Actually, the point of the Familiar Folio options was to make weaker choices more valuable. Just like how the Mauler archetype makes the crab an entirely viable familiar choice, the bloodline familiars make bloodlines with bad or otherwise undesirable powers more worthwhile.


...Except the only real upside to Bloodines with bad powers is the bonus spells they get.

Which now come into play even later in the game.


Shrug; my girlfriend was more than happy to trade out the claws on her Abyssal Bloodrager for a crab combat buddy.


I think Rynjin is aking for a logical reason as to why this is a good idea from a mechanical perspective. Familiars are not normally in combat anyway, so why trade delay bonus spells for something you will likely never use?

Shadow Lodge

The problem here is the difference in power between 1st level powers.

And possibly the already-late access to bloodline spells (I like the houserule that says you get them two levels early - before you can otherwise cast spells of that level, once per day).

Given that those two things exist, bloodline familiars are a great choice for bloodlines with sub-par 1st level bloodline powers, particularly the Elemental Bloodline (which also gets uninspiring bloodline spells).

They certainly don't need to be made stronger (ie a better trade) in order to match the overpowered Arcane Bloodline.

Rynjin wrote:
...Except the only real upside to Bloodines with bad powers is the bonus spells they get.

A bad first level power doesn't always mean bad higher-level powers. Aberrant, for example, has a terrible acid attack as its 1st power but grants some nice mid-level powers. There are also feats and arcana.

Personally, I like the fact that you can now play an Infernal Sorcerer with an Imp, and I think it's a fine trade.

wraithstrike wrote:
I think Rynjin is aking for a logical reason as to why this is a good idea from a mechanical perspective. Familiars are not normally in combat anyway, so why trade delay bonus spells for something you will likely never use?

You've never seen someone use their familiar? The last wizard at my table made his familiar practically a party member - and not just with RP, the thing was a fantastic scout in a group that was otherwise none too stealthy.


Weirdo wrote:


wraithstrike wrote:
I think Rynjin is aking for a logical reason as to why this is a good idea from a mechanical perspective. Familiars are not normally in combat anyway, so why trade delay bonus spells for something you will likely never use?
You've never seen someone use their familiar? The last wizard at my table made his familiar practically a party member - and not just with RP, the thing was a fantastic scout in a group that was otherwise none too stealthy.

I know familiars can be useful, but that has nothing to do with the trade I am asking about unless I missed something you said.


Weirdo wrote:

The problem here is the difference in power between 1st level powers.

And possibly the already-late access to bloodline spells (I like the houserule that says you get them two levels early - before you can otherwise cast spells of that level, once per day).

Given that those two things exist, bloodline familiars are a great choice for bloodlines with sub-par 1st level bloodline powers, particularly the Elemental Bloodline (which also gets uninspiring bloodline spells).

They certainly don't need to be made stronger (ie a better trade) in order to match the overpowered Arcane Bloodline.

I argue that they do.

Despite that you may think it's overpowered, the Arcane Bloodline is THE Sorcerer Bloodline.

It is the default, and therefore presumably the Bloodline all other Bloodlines were balanced around.

If a Familiar is OP for Arcane it wouldn't be any more or less OP for any other Bloodline, especially since the Familiar is really the least of its power (the extra spells known and great Bonus Spells list is that).

Trading a sub-par power for a somewhat better power for gimped bonus spells progression is a bad trade. Trading crappy claws fro a Familiar might not be an EVEN trade, but it's a FAIR trade, IMO.


Rynjin wrote:
Weirdo wrote:

The problem here is the difference in power between 1st level powers.

And possibly the already-late access to bloodline spells (I like the houserule that says you get them two levels early - before you can otherwise cast spells of that level, once per day).

Given that those two things exist, bloodline familiars are a great choice for bloodlines with sub-par 1st level bloodline powers, particularly the Elemental Bloodline (which also gets uninspiring bloodline spells).

They certainly don't need to be made stronger (ie a better trade) in order to match the overpowered Arcane Bloodline.

I argue that they do.

Despite that you may think it's overpowered, the Arcane Bloodline is THE Sorcerer Bloodline.

It is the default, and therefore presumably the Bloodline all other Bloodlines were balanced around.

If a Familiar is OP for Arcane it wouldn't be any more or less OP for any other Bloodline, especially since the Familiar is really the least of its power (the extra spells known and great Bonus Spells list is that).

Trading a sub-par power for a somewhat better power for gimped bonus spells progression is a bad trade. Trading crappy claws fro a Familiar might not be an EVEN trade, but it's a FAIR trade, IMO.

I'd argue that arcane bloodline is the opposite of THE sorcerer bloodline. It's more like a cop out for when you want to make a wizard but like spontaneous casting.

What I see immediately though is the opportunity this presents. Honestly getting your bloodline spells one level later is more of a boon than a hinderance

think of it this way, if your bloodline has great spells you can pick them as a spell known on the first level you'd gain spells of that level because two levels later when you'd get it as a bloodline spell just switch it out for something else because it's an even numbered level!

edit for an example: picture this, you're a Celestial sorcerer who doesn't wan't to wait till level 7 to get magic circle against evil. If you don't care about heavenly fire you can grab a good old greensting scorpion at level 1 for +4 initiative, then at level 6 you can pick up magic circle, then at level 8 when you get it as a bonus spell anyway you can switch out your previous spell known slot of magic circle for something else


wraithstrike wrote:
I think Rynjin is aking for a logical reason as to why this is a good idea from a mechanical perspective. Familiars are not normally in combat anyway, so why trade delay bonus spells for something you will likely never use?

Well, that is from the perspective of a familiar tied to a wizard- terrible BAB and half of a terrible HP.

A blood rager's familiar is considerably more buff since it shares his better stats.

Typically better for an eldritch guardian (who can share combat feats), but there are plenty of improved familiar that are combat ready. The earth elemental, for example, starts off with 16 str and a basic set of combat feats (power attack and bull rush).

Combine that with the fact it can use simple weapons (elementals get proficiency if they are humanoid shaped), use its great natural armor (+regular armor and scaling natural armor), and give it either DR 5/- or 20% displacement with the spirit's gift feat...

You can more than make a decent familiar as a blood rager. A tiny tank that serves to smack enemies and push them into place.


James Gibbons wrote:


I'd argue that arcane bloodline is the opposite of THE sorcerer bloodline....

PRD wrote:


Sorcerer Bloodlines
The following bloodlines represent only some of the possible sources of power that a sorcerer can draw upon. Unless otherwise noted, most sorcerers are assumed to have the arcane bloodline.

That is what he was referring to.


lemeres wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
I think Rynjin is aking for a logical reason as to why this is a good idea from a mechanical perspective. Familiars are not normally in combat anyway, so why trade delay bonus spells for something you will likely never use?

Well, that is from the perspective of a familiar tied to a wizard- terrible BAB and half of a terrible HP.

A blood rager's familiar is considerably more buff since it shares his better stats.

Typically better for an eldritch guardian (who can share combat feats), but there are plenty of improved familiar that are combat ready. The earth elemental, for example, starts off with 16 str and a basic set of combat feats (power attack and bull rush).

Combine that with the fact it can use simple weapons (elementals get proficiency if they are humanoid shaped), use its great natural armor (+regular armor and scaling natural armor), and give it either DR 5/- or 20% displacement with the spirit's gift feat...

You can more than make a decent familiar as a blood rager. A tiny tank that serves to smack enemies and push them into place.

So basically this ability has no logical reason to be taken by a sorcerer.


wraithstrike wrote:
James Gibbons wrote:


I'd argue that arcane bloodline is the opposite of THE sorcerer bloodline....

PRD wrote:


Sorcerer Bloodlines
The following bloodlines represent only some of the possible sources of power that a sorcerer can draw upon. Unless otherwise noted, most sorcerers are assumed to have the arcane bloodline.

That is what he was referring to.

Oh woops my mistake. I hadn't noticed that line.


wraithstrike wrote:
So basically this ability has no logical reason to be taken by a sorcerer.

Well, we all know what pure caster familiars end up doing- they are wand monkeys, they play fetch, they may have a few useful SLAs or senses...etc etc.

The decision is basically getting a familiar when you do not feel like going tattooed sorcerer or arcane because you have a particular set of bloodline powers to use.

But no- generally, there are plenty of options for a sorcerer to pick up a familiar. Having the same option is nice, of course (again, particular builds and such), but not that vital.


...wait, quick question. Aren't bloodline spells counted as the highest level spell you can cast when you gain the spells? So that would mean that a sorcerer who takes the bloodline familiar has all of their bloodline spells as a higher spell level in addition to getting them a level later? Because that would suck. A lot.


Bob Bob Bob wrote:
...wait, quick question. Aren't bloodline spells counted as the highest level spell you can cast when you gain the spells? So that would mean that a sorcerer who takes the bloodline familiar has all of their bloodline spells as a higher spell level in addition to getting them a level later? Because that would suck. A lot.

No. The general consensus(not 100% agreement) is that is the way it works out, but there is no written rule on it, and having a lower level spell take up a higher level slot when casting is not really an advantage in most cases.

Also in this case, it would likely be fixed so that the spells work at their natural levels.

Liberty's Edge

Well, my monk X/Empyreal sorcerer 1 would have loved for this to be an option when he was created. Trade a pretty lousy ability for alertness, small amounts of fast healing, a possible flying scout, or other miscellaneous bonuses (+4 init, or plus to saves). Yeah I'd take that trade any day.

Can't say I'd take it as a full sorcerer though, not without a build that requires a familiar and not having the arcane bloodline.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I don't think the bloodline familiars are a bad deal.

Sorcerers can get familiars via three methods:

  • Arcane bloodline -- which may not fit the character concept
  • Tattooed Sorcerer -- lose the 1st and 9th level bloodline powers, eschew materials and other changes
  • Eldritch Heritage -- Uses two feats
  • Bloodline familiar -- Lose only 1st level bloodline power and familiar gets a new power based on your bloodline.

The Bloodrager of Eldrich Scion only have the last two as options.

In the case of Celestial bloodline the familiar is able to give Fast Healing 1 to any ally a limited number of times per day. The Aberrant gives compression that could be very useful to an infiltrator familiar.

Really, I think this can be quite a nice option for Sorcerers, Bloodragers and Eldrich Scions.


James Gibbons wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Weirdo wrote:

The problem here is the difference in power between 1st level powers.

And possibly the already-late access to bloodline spells (I like the houserule that says you get them two levels early - before you can otherwise cast spells of that level, once per day).

Given that those two things exist, bloodline familiars are a great choice for bloodlines with sub-par 1st level bloodline powers, particularly the Elemental Bloodline (which also gets uninspiring bloodline spells).

They certainly don't need to be made stronger (ie a better trade) in order to match the overpowered Arcane Bloodline.

I argue that they do.

Despite that you may think it's overpowered, the Arcane Bloodline is THE Sorcerer Bloodline.

It is the default, and therefore presumably the Bloodline all other Bloodlines were balanced around.

If a Familiar is OP for Arcane it wouldn't be any more or less OP for any other Bloodline, especially since the Familiar is really the least of its power (the extra spells known and great Bonus Spells list is that).

Trading a sub-par power for a somewhat better power for gimped bonus spells progression is a bad trade. Trading crappy claws fro a Familiar might not be an EVEN trade, but it's a FAIR trade, IMO.

I'd argue that arcane bloodline is the opposite of THE sorcerer bloodline. It's more like a cop out for when you want to make a wizard but like spontaneous casting.

What I see immediately though is the opportunity this presents. Honestly getting your bloodline spells one level later is more of a boon than a hinderance

think of it this way, if your bloodline has great spells you can pick them as a spell known on the first level you'd gain spells of that level because two levels later when you'd get it as a bloodline spell just switch it out for something else because it's an even numbered level!

edit for an example: picture this, you're a Celestial sorcerer who doesn't wan't to wait till level 7 to get magic circle against...

Arcane is definitely THE sorcerer bloodline. It is the only bloodline in core to carry over THE ONLY sorcerer class feature from the OGL. Arcane is definitely the default and the developers should have balanced the others around it.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think the real answer is 'because Sorcerers can't have nice things.'

Except being a caster. Other than that part.


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If they didn't have the extra staggered spells from bloodlines, then it would be an absolutely no-brainer choice for 99% of all sorcerers.

How would you go about trading out a weak ability that you probably won't use past level 2 for an extra set of actions, the most important thing you can get in Pathfinder?


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

basically you could have been a wizard and been more awesome with no strings attached, but sorcerer gets one with a ton of strings attached, doesn't feel like a fair trade. or arcane blooded for that matter.


Cheapy wrote:

If they didn't have the extra staggered spells from bloodlines, then it would be an absolutely no-brainer choice for 99% of all sorcerers.

How would you go about trading out a weak ability that you probably won't use past level 2 for an extra set of actions, the most important thing you can get in Pathfinder?

What extra actions? You get the actions from the familiar anyway unless I am misreading what you are trying to say.


As mentioned, it is a great deal for Bloodragers and Sorcs who want to pick their bloodline spells as regular spells known. In addition, don't forget that familiars can take some very useful archetypes! Double your crafting speed, grant yourself bonus AC, have an immortal buddy, or outsource your skills by having your raven/thrush familiar take knowledge skills for you. Plus, some of the bloodline familiar abilities are really good- Fey really stands out, and Abyssal is great with the Mauler archetype for a Bloodrager. The delayed bloodline spells are a problem less than half the time for Sorcs. Every other level, you've got exactly the same number of spells as normal, and at some levels, the spell isn't one you'd use at all.

All in all, I think the bloodline familiars are a great deal.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

the real question is how does this effect dragon disciple. they gain their bloodline spell the moment they can cast a spell of that level.


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Arachnofiend wrote:

You're cherry picking what many consider to be the best bloodline in the game. Look, I can cherry pick too: do you really think trading out draconic's claws for a familiar is a balanced trade?

As for the combat familiars, remember that Bloodragers can swap for these too.

I would say that no Sorcerer bloodline EVER should have seriously been given a natural attack or 1d4+nothing ray 1st level power. Bloodline familiars without the spell penalty would just go a long way toward correcting the horrible design choices made for a lot of bloodlines.


chaoseffect wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:

You're cherry picking what many consider to be the best bloodline in the game. Look, I can cherry pick too: do you really think trading out draconic's claws for a familiar is a balanced trade?

As for the combat familiars, remember that Bloodragers can swap for these too.

I would say that no Sorcerer bloodline EVER should have seriously been given a natural attack or 1d4+nothing ray 1st level power. Bloodline familiars without the spell penalty would just go a long way toward correcting the horrible design choices made for a lot of bloodlines.

I never understood it either. One thing poor BAB casters know is to stay out of melee as much as possible. Those claws attacks made me avoid those bloodlines.


BretI wrote:

I don't think the bloodline familiars are a bad deal.

Sorcerers can get familiars via three methods:

  • Arcane bloodline -- which may not fit the character concept
  • Tattooed Sorcerer -- lose the 1st and 9th level bloodline powers, eschew materials and other changes
  • Eldritch Heritage -- Uses two feats
  • Bloodline familiar -- Lose only 1st level bloodline power and familiar gets a new power based on your bloodline.

The Bloodrager of Eldrich Scion only have the last two as options.

In the case of Celestial bloodline the familiar is able to give Fast Healing 1 to any ally a limited number of times per day. The Aberrant gives compression that could be very useful to an infiltrator familiar.

Really, I think this can be quite a nice option for Sorcerers, Bloodragers and Eldrich Scions.

Oh, other methods- Aberrant Bloodline can get a feat that gives a tumor familiar. I suppose that is available to both classes.

Lets not forget familiar bond...which needs improved familiar bond in order to get a full familiar. Overall, it kind of sucks for three feats.

But really- I just like having the option to do this. Since having the option doesn't take anything away from you if you choose not to use it, it is fine. And it is certainly a great option for blood ragers since they have less options.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

What I find most interesting about the Bloodline familiars is that the familiar powers would also be granted to an Improved Familiar if you got one. It is an archetype of the class granting the familiar, not the familiar itself, and therefore should be compatible with any type of familiar.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
BretI wrote:
What I find most interesting about the Bloodline familiars is that the familiar powers would also be granted to an Improved Familiar if you got one. It is an archetype of the class granting the familiar, not the familiar itself, and therefore should be compatible with any type of familiar.

could you be more clear?

do you mean you have issue with an imp getting a celestial bloodline power or something?


chaoseffect wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:

You're cherry picking what many consider to be the best bloodline in the game. Look, I can cherry pick too: do you really think trading out draconic's claws for a familiar is a balanced trade?

As for the combat familiars, remember that Bloodragers can swap for these too.

I would say that no Sorcerer bloodline EVER should have seriously been given a natural attack or 1d4+nothing ray 1st level power. Bloodline familiars without the spell penalty would just go a long way toward correcting the horrible design choices made for a lot of bloodlines.

Yeah, yeah, let's all feel sorry for the 9th level caster having subpar class features.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Bandw2 wrote:
BretI wrote:
What I find most interesting about the Bloodline familiars is that the familiar powers would also be granted to an Improved Familiar if you got one. It is an archetype of the class granting the familiar, not the familiar itself, and therefore should be compatible with any type of familiar.

could you be more clear?

do you mean you have issue with an imp getting a celestial bloodline power or something?

I'm saying if you have a Celestial Bloodline familiar and take improved familiar, even if it is an Imp familiar with an Archetype it would still have the Heavenly Touch supernatural ability. The abilities given to the familiar are a part of the character's class archetype and therefore should be compatible with any of the familiars.

With familiar archetypes you run into problems if the familiar doesn't have a certain ability. For example, Decoy and Emissary are not compatible because they both replace Alertness and modify the class list of the familiar.


Arachnofiend wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:

You're cherry picking what many consider to be the best bloodline in the game. Look, I can cherry pick too: do you really think trading out draconic's claws for a familiar is a balanced trade?

As for the combat familiars, remember that Bloodragers can swap for these too.

I would say that no Sorcerer bloodline EVER should have seriously been given a natural attack or 1d4+nothing ray 1st level power. Bloodline familiars without the spell penalty would just go a long way toward correcting the horrible design choices made for a lot of bloodlines.
Yeah, yeah, let's all feel sorry for the 9th level caster having subpar class features.

It is not about feeling sorry for anyone. It is about bad design.


Most first-level powers suck, and most bloodline spell lists suck. I don't see a whole hell of a lot of loss.

Sure, there are a few bloodlines I would pass it over for (Arcane being the Mauler-archetyped elephant in the room), but otherwise it's worth taking a hard look at for a Sorcerer.

Bloodragers are in much the same boat, though it seems that their first-level powers tend to be better.

Shadow Lodge

wraithstrike wrote:
Weirdo wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
I think Rynjin is aking for a logical reason as to why this is a good idea from a mechanical perspective. Familiars are not normally in combat anyway, so why trade delay bonus spells for something you will likely never use?
You've never seen someone use their familiar? The last wizard at my table made his familiar practically a party member - and not just with RP, the thing was a fantastic scout in a group that was otherwise none too stealthy.
I know familiars can be useful, but that has nothing to do with the trade I am asking about unless I missed something you said.

I thought you were saying that you would likely never use a familiar. Now I realize that you were referring specifically to the example in Rynjin's first post - the Abyssal bloodline familiar ability.

First, I think it's important to see the bloodline familiar as a package deal. It's not "familiar for 1st level power" (good trade) and "delay bonus spells for familiar power" (bad trade). It's "familiar plus minor power" for "1st level power and delayed bloodline spells" and for most bloodlines that is overall a good trade - even for the Abyssal bloodline.

Second, Abyssal's granted power is a bad one for most sorcerers but as lemeres pointed out it's a great one for bloodragers (who also get access to bloodline familiars).

Rynjin wrote:

Despite that you may think it's overpowered, the Arcane Bloodline is THE Sorcerer Bloodline.

It is the default, and therefore presumably the Bloodline all other Bloodlines were balanced around.
BigDTBone wrote:
Arcane is definitely THE sorcerer bloodline. It is the only bloodline in core to carry over THE ONLY sorcerer class feature from the OGL. Arcane is definitely the default and the developers should have balanced the others around it.

Should have balanced them around arcane, but clearly didn't, since otherwise most bloodlines would be comparable in power to the arcane bloodline.

chaoseffect wrote:
I would say that no Sorcerer bloodline EVER should have seriously been given a natural attack or 1d4+nothing ray 1st level power. Bloodline familiars without the spell penalty would just go a long way toward correcting the horrible design choices made for a lot of bloodlines.

I would prefer that the poor bloodline powers be improved rather than relying on a familiar to bring the bloodline up to par. While familiars are great, not everyone wants one.


That bloodline was created well before bloodragers existed, but I agree it is not as bad for class that might end up on the frontline to include something like a sorcerer/paladin combo.

Paladin is disarmed, well he uses his claws and keeps smiting anyway.

Shadow Lodge

I was unclear.

The Abyssal bloodline familiar's granted power (familiar's natural attacks deal damage as if one size larger) is not very good for a sorcerer, but is better for a bloodrager because the latter's familiar can be effective in melee.

So even if you disagree with me that the "abyssal bloodline familiar" package is a good deal for a sorcerer, that doesn't mean it sucks.

Agree with your assessment of the claw power for sorcs.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

do familiars even gain HD? even a mauler feels subpar as a combatant


Bandw2 wrote:
do familiars even gain HD? even a mauler feels subpar as a combatant

...why?

They use 1/2 the master's hp (and there is feat for maulers to give them an extra +2 per level- enough to be about a d8 I'd say) and all of their BAB (which works for power attack and iterative), saves, and skill points.

They also use their master's level for their HD for effects determined by their HD, which covers most other circumstances.

What problems would their fake hit dice hold as melee combatants?


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
lemeres wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
do familiars even gain HD? even a mauler feels subpar as a combatant

...why?

They use 1/2 the master's hp (and there is feat for maulers to give them an extra +2 per level- enough to be about a d8 I'd say) and all of their BAB (which works for power attack and iterative), saves, and skill points.

They also use their master's level for their HD for effects determined by their HD, which covers most other circumstances.

What problems would their fake hit dice hold as melee combatants?

oh right i always forget the half HP thing. I made a mauler a while ago and i just didn't feel it was worth it.

though it was on an unchained rogue


Bandw2 wrote:

oh right i always forget the half HP thing. I made a mauler a while ago and i just didn't feel it was worth it.

though it was on an unchained rogue

No need to worry. It was a 'use the master's or the creature's; whichever is greater' thing.

And lets be honest- with half of a wizard's hp, you are better off using the base creatures.

Also, you obviously do not send out to fight the familiars of the 'typical' familiar owning classes for that same reason, so you mostly know them as the 'tiny thing to keep safe in a bag, and maybe give it a wand'.


Omar's Hatchet


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Trojan Man wrote:
Omar's Hatchet

I've seen this like 2-3 times today and have no idea what it means.


Bandw2 wrote:
Trojan Man wrote:
Omar's Hatchet
I've seen this like 2-3 times today and have no idea what it means.

Maybe the guy that tried to run into the white house? When he was arrested, they found several hundred rounds of ammo, a machete, and two hatchets. That happened in 2014, but he was sentenced a few days ago it seems.

If that is what this is about, then someone is confusing this site for twitter and trying to put up hastags. Either that, or they are spamming sites in general in order to manipulate google searches for some hashtag.

Of course, I could be completely wrong. I will readily admit that. I am justgoing off of the main search results for the term.


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lemeres wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Trojan Man wrote:
Omar's Hatchet
I've seen this like 2-3 times today and have no idea what it means.

Maybe the guy that tried to run into the white house? When he was arrested, they found several hundred rounds of ammo, a machete, and two hatchets. That happened in 2014, but he was sentenced a few days ago it seems.

If that is what this is about, then someone is confusing this site for twitter and trying to put up hastags. Either that, or they are spamming sites in general in order to manipulate google searches for some hashtag.

Of course, I could be completely wrong. I will readily admit that. I am justgoing off of the main search results for the term.

Using my superior computer skills I have found the true meaning.

Quote:
My dad's boss called him the other day, and during the conversation referred to Occam's Razor as "Omar's Hatchet." This needs to be a thing.

How this applies to this thread however...no clue.

Designer

Rynjin wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Trojan Man wrote:
Omar's Hatchet
I've seen this like 2-3 times today and have no idea what it means.

Maybe the guy that tried to run into the white house? When he was arrested, they found several hundred rounds of ammo, a machete, and two hatchets. That happened in 2014, but he was sentenced a few days ago it seems.

If that is what this is about, then someone is confusing this site for twitter and trying to put up hastags. Either that, or they are spamming sites in general in order to manipulate google searches for some hashtag.

Of course, I could be completely wrong. I will readily admit that. I am justgoing off of the main search results for the term.

Using my superior computer skills I have found the true meaning.

Quote:
My dad's boss called him the other day, and during the conversation referred to Occam's Razor as "Omar's Hatchet." This needs to be a thing.
How this applies to this thread however...no clue.

The reason Bandw2 saw it 3 times is that the same poster used several aliases to post it in several separate threads in short succession, whether or not it applied.

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