The idea behind a lance doing double damage when charging is because the lance has the horse's mass backing the hit in addition to the rider's. There's like a ton and a half of impact behind that tiny lance point when it hits.
Throwing the lance would rob it of all that extra multiplying force.
So, while the RAW may support it, RAI (and reality) say no.
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Your answer is in the spoiler of your own post:
Benefit: A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount.
If you throw it, even if it were thrown from the back of a charging mount, at the moment of impact it is NOT being used from the back of a charging mount. No double damage.
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Lances are not throwing weapons, so if you were to use it as such you are suddenly using an improvised weapon and lose all of the normal properties of a lance.
Agreed with those above, no extra damage.
Hypothetically speaking, what if the character had all of the following:
- Throw Anything Feat
- Quick Draw Feat
- Two-Handed Thrower Feat
- Hurling, Lesser Rage Power
- Hurling Charge Rage Power
Then could he do what the OP is asking?
No.
Improvised weapons by default retain none of their special properties.
Okay, so the only way to make it work is with the Lance Chucker Feat from the Pathfinder Player's Companion, "Wishful Thinking"?
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It's like everyone completely skipped over adding the Throwing enchantment to the lance. C'mon, guys, this is the Paizo rule forum. I expect better. :P
By RAW it works, and I like it. If you spend the tons of mounted combat feats, throwing feats, and ranged feats, on being able to chuck a volley of lances off of the back of a horse, you should get to, even if it's utterly ridiculous.
It's like everyone completely skipped over adding the Throwing enchantment to the lance. C'mon, guys, this is the Paizo rule forum. I expect better. :P
By RAW it works, and I like it. If you spend the tons of mounted combat feats, throwing feats, and ranged feats, on being able to chuck a volley of lances off of the back of a horse, you should get to, even if it's utterly ridiculous.
Ah... Forgot about that one. In such a case I would probably rule this as legal, since you are charging with a lance on a mount. It wouldn't break anything even from a "should this be allowed" standpoint; I mean, you literally picked the most expensive and inefficient way to build a Cavalier.
Hey all!
I'm a long-time lurker and new DM and thought up a goofy situation that I'm hoping some more rule-savvy community members can jump in and answer...
If I have a character throw a lance from a charging mount, does it deal double damage?
There are a number of ways of setting this up that may vary in degree of legality, but I'm thinking that from a RAW standpoint, throwing a lance is a form of "using" it, since the lance's weapon entry doesn't specifically state that it must be used in a melee attack to deal the bonus damage.
Relevant entry:
** spoiler omitted **Say I have a mounted character with the Charging Hurler feat, and a lance with the Throwing enchantment on it, can I toss the lance at a target and have it deal double damage, since it is indeed being used from the back of a charging mount?
I assume if the lance is being thrown as an Improvised Weapon instead, it loses the quality that causes it to deal 2x damage on a mounted charge, but if not, could the same thing be achieved via a combination of the Throw Anything, Quick Draw, and Two-Handed Thrower feats? Potentially allowing for iterative ranged attacks if combined with some other shenanigans?
Obviously the intention is for a lance to deal bonus damage on a melee attack, because you are using the mount's momentum to deliver the blow with substantially more force than a normal humanoid could achieve on foot. Throwing a lance from the back of a mount flies in...
If I were the DM I would rule that YES this does work. If you throw a baseball from a moving airplane that is going 200 mph the baseball has the added force of the speed. The more speed, the more force an object will have regardless of the weight, right? So on that note I would rule that yes the lance would deal more damage.
There's like a ton and a half of impact behind that tiny lance point when it hits.
Based on the phrasing, I see someone has read The Dragon and the George. :)
If I were the DM I would rule that YES this does work. If you throw a baseball from a moving airplane that is going 200 mph the baseball has the added force of the speed. The more speed, the more force an object will have regardless of the weight, right? So on that note I would rule that yes the lance would deal more damage.
Not exactly. Kinetic energy depends on the mass and the square of the velocity. So speeding it up will help a lot, but so will putting the mass of a warhorse and his rider behind it.
As for the rules, I, too, overlooked the throwing enhancement, so I suppose it can be used in this way.
There's like a ton and a half of impact behind that tiny lance point when it hits.Based on the phrasing, I see someone has read The Dragon and the George. :)
Nope, but clearly I should. Looking it up now.
If I were the DM I would rule that YES this does work. If you throw a baseball from a moving airplane that is going 200 mph the baseball has the added force of the speed. The more speed, the more force an object will have regardless of the weight, right? So on that note I would rule that yes the lance would deal more damage.Not exactly. Kinetic energy depends on the mass and the square of the velocity. So speeding it up will help a lot, but so will putting the mass of a warhorse and his rider behind it.
As for the rules, I, too, overlooked the throwing enhancement, so I suppose it can be used in this way.
^ this.
It isn't the speed that increases the damage. Horses are fast, but they aren't that fast. They are heavy though.
Doesn't matter if they're "not that fast", increasing the speed has a significant impact.
Of course, the difference in speed between an unmounted character and a mounted one is, at best, a factor of 1.67 (assuming a horse and a human), which increases the energy by a pretty tiny factor (2.78) compared to around 11 times from the increase in mass, so roughly speaking the mounted character is delivering 30 times the energy he could charging in on his own.
If we were being simulationist about it, speed and mass should play a part in the damage calculation (just imagine the builds we'd see if an enlarged horse delivered x8 energy, or a hasten one another x2.5). As a first approximation, the damage increase is the fifth-root of the energy increase, so an enlarged, hasted mount should be delivering around 3.6 times base damage. And don't make me figure out what riding a flying dragon would do (4.9 times, okay, I'm weak).
All of which is utterly beside the point, but I love things like this. As a GM, assuming you can come up with a way to a) throw a weapon at the end of a charge, and b) treat the weapon as the weapon rather than improvised, then I'd allow it.
I see nothing in Throwing that would allow it multiply damage, it simply allows it to be thrown.
As soon as it leaves your hands, it isn't being used from the horse, so no, no multiplier.
Ah... Forgot about that one. In such a case I would probably rule this as legal, since you are charging with a lance on a mount. It wouldn't break anything even from a "should this be allowed" standpoint; I mean, you literally picked the most expensive and inefficient way to build a Cavalier.It's like everyone completely skipped over adding the Throwing enchantment to the lance. C'mon, guys, this is the Paizo rule forum. I expect better. :P
By RAW it works, and I like it. If you spend the tons of mounted combat feats, throwing feats, and ranged feats, on being able to chuck a volley of lances off of the back of a horse, you should get to, even if it's utterly ridiculous.
Sooo this dose work? I can throw a lance and get double damage?
Nope, being able to throw a weapon does not mean you get double damage from it...
The lance charge gets double damage when used on the horse.
Throwing it means you aren't doing that.
So no.
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The description of the lance says the following:
Lance: A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount. While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand.
In this case, "wield" would mean to "use in a continuous manner" or to "hold and use". This refers to melee, but not throwing.
I do not have a problem with allowing a character to throw a lance from horseback if the lance had the Throwing ability, but I do not see allowing the double damage in that case.
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@RedDogMT - The part about wielding the lance in one hand isn't what we're interested in here. The lance is entered in the weapon tables as a two-handed weapon, normally. We idling it from the back of a mount allows a special case where it can be used as a one-handed weapon instead. We are fully capable of throwing it with one or two-hands, regardless of this line. We're more interested in the part about *using* it from the back of a mount.
@alexd1796 - It's not the fact that it's a throwing weapon that doubles the damage, it's the language specifically surrounding the lance as a weapon. We've already outlined feats, such as Charging Hurler that allows you to make a thrown attack as part of a charge, so you are indeed making charge attack with the lance from a mount when throwing the weapon (in a completely legal fashion). The question is whether or not it retains its lance double-damage property, because we are indeed meeting the criteria of a lance charge when throwing it. This whole theory revolves around the fact that the lance doesn't very specifically state that you must make a *melee* charge attack to achieve the bonus damage.
We need of FAQ
We need of FAQ
I'd want to see the question asked a second time before I considered it to be "frequently asked." Possibly even a third..... or a fiftieth.
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@RedDogMT - The part about wielding the lance in one hand isn't what we're interested in here. The lance is entered in the weapon tables as a two-handed weapon, normally. We idling it from the back of a mount allows a special case where it can be used as a one-handed weapon instead. We are fully capable of throwing it with one or two-hands, regardless of this line. We're more interested in the part about *using* it from the back of a mount.
@pandacache - You only read part of my post. I was in no way making an argument about one versus two handed use. I quoted the entire passage from the book to not only support my point, but to also show context. the argument that I made and the supporting opinion was that the double damage from charge is only for wielding the lance and wielding in that instance is related only to melee.
For instance, you can wield a bow, but you do not wield an arrow that is shot. You wield a dagger when using it in melee, but if you throw it, you are not wielding it. The term 'wield' means to "use in a continuous manner" or to "hold and use".
If you throw the lance, it is not being wielded; it is being thrown. That difference disqualifies a thrown lance attack from gaining the double damage while mounted.
Also, I am fairly certain that you are just one voice in this discussion. Stating that you speak for everyone else is a little arrogant (ie "We're more interested...").
Rules wise this is questionable, depending on the interpretation of 'use from the back of a charging mount' and whether that includes throwing with the Chrarging Hurler feat and whether the throwing property retrains that particular weapon property of the lance when used. I think one can make reasonable arguments on either case, and I would expect DMs to interpret this differently.
From a quasi-realistic perspective, the justification for a lances increased damage is that it is a weapon designed to channel the power of the mounts charge into the attack, when thrown this wouldn't apply.
From a game-masters perspective, if someone wants to spend this much resources for a tactic that is at best marginally better than the standard use, I would allow it.
I'd want to see the question asked a second time before I considered it to be "frequently asked." Possibly even a third..... or a fiftieth.
We need of FAQ
LOL.
Too true.
What we need is a OAC. Once-Asked Question. Does the PDT do OACs?
For the record, I did see that it's a throwing lance. That changes nothing.
Since my one-sentence post achieved nothing more than getting me incorrectly labeled as having overlooked the lance's magical property, here's a longer version:
Lances don't do x2 damage on a charge because the horse is fast. If that were the reason, then EVERYTHING would get x2 damage from horseback; it wouldn't matter if you do a mounted charge with a lance, sword, axe, or whatever, they would all do x2 damage. They don't.
Lances do x2 damage on a charge because the MASS of the horse is transferred through the rider, down the lance, and into the target. Only lances get this benefit from the MASS of a horse. You can't do this with a spear or longspear because those are weaker shafts with no "grip" (lances have a grip so your hand doesn't slide along the shaft - without the grip, some of the force would go into the target but most of it would go into pushing the lance backward out of your hand).
Magically making the lance into a ranged (throwing) weapon and then chucking it at an enemy doesn't transfer the horse's MASS into the target; all you transfer is the extra speed of the horse which is not enough to provide x2 damage to ranged attacks - if it were, then throwing spears and javelins and daggers from a horse, or firing bows and crossbows from a horse, would all get x2 damage, too. They don't
So, the only way to get x2 damage from a lance, throwing or not, is to hold it in your hand and perform a mounted charge with it.
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For the record, I did see that it's a throwing lance. That changes nothing.
Since my one-sentence post achieved nothing more than getting me incorrectly labeled as having overlooked the lance's magical property, here's a longer version:
Lances don't do x2 damage on a charge because the horse is fast. If that were the reason, then EVERYTHING would get x2 damage from horseback; it wouldn't matter if you do a mounted charge with a lance, sword, axe, or whatever, they would all do x2 damage. They don't.
Lances do x2 damage on a charge because the MASS of the horse is transferred through the rider, down the lance, and into the target. Only lances get this benefit from the MASS of a horse. You can't do this with a spear or longspear because those are weaker shafts with no "grip" (lances have a grip so your hand doesn't slide along the shaft - without the grip, some of the force would go into the target but most of it would go into pushing the lance backward out of your hand).
Magically making the lance into a ranged (throwing) weapon and then chucking it at an enemy doesn't transfer the horse's MASS into the target; all you transfer is the extra speed of the horse which is not enough to provide x2 damage to ranged attacks - if it were, then throwing spears and javelins and daggers from a horse, or firing bows and crossbows from a horse, would all get x2 damage, too. They don't
So, the only way to get x2 damage from a lance, throwing or not, is to hold it in your hand and perform a mounted charge with it.
I agree with you, except I don't think it is really relevant to the rules. While the rules do intend to model the physical world to a degree, they have only a passing resemblance to it and there are many many things that work based on the game rules, but wouldn't in the real world even without magic etc. added in.
The reason the designers gave a lance double damage on a charge may be interesting, but I don't think it is relevant to that fact that it is rule.
You do know there is a feat for making things other than a lance get lance damage on a mounted charge, right? I don't think the real world physics of the thing apply too readily to Pathfinder, certainly not here.
I haven't seen anything here to support the idea that a thrown lance would do double damage, so I'm sticking with no.
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@pandacache
Lances aren't designed for throwing. Javelins are. Javelins are the most common spear-like thrown weapons designed for this purpose and if slightly optimized for being thrown from horse, they can do some decent damage output. Using lances as thrown weapons won't get you double damage output as some of the posters already mentioned above. Chargers deal already ridiculous amounts of damage with lances as it is.