Sneak attack with Firearms


Advice

The Exchange

I am a Dwarf Musket Master level 1 going into level 2. Im trying to decide which class i should go into in order to gain extra damage into my starting firearm. I already got point blank shot, and i wonder if i should go into Rouge for sneek attack or should I go a difrent way and save money to enchance my starting gun with flaming enhancement (for example).


Based on FAQ and Developer weigh in, you cannot get sneak attack when "flanking" with a ranged weapon. The only other way you would get SA damage would be if the target is denied their dexterity to AC, which you can achieve every other round through stealth/hiding or feinting. But this isn't the most efficient combination.


I'm not sure you would get to use sneak attack very often. You can't normally flank with ranged weapons so you'll have to find ways to deny your target their DEX bonus. Stealth is a poor choice because guns are loud.

Rouge is the worst class out there. Even worse than rogue. You'll want to avoid both of those classes if all you want is more weapon damage.

Flaming is not a bad idea. But don't stop there. Add frost, acidic, shocking. Slam them with every element available.


Iirc Gunslinger has its best +damage ability at level 5, so stay pure until then.


If you can turn invisible or see thru fog or magic darkness there are practical ways to sneak attack with ranged weapons. If not (and it doesn't sound like you do), don't go for it, it won't happen often enough.

If damage is your thing sticking with musket master is the way. At level 3 you get to load your gun faster, at level 5 you get dex to damage. The next interesting ability is the signature deed feat which you qualify for at level 11, so multiclassing out after level 5 is a decent choice. Alchemist (explosive missile discovery and/or grenadier archetype) or slayer (studied target) give some synergy.

Edit: and don't go for flaming etc., a better enhancement bonus is just as good value and won't fail on enemies with energy resistance. DM_Blake's plain wrong there.

Shadow Lodge

If you want to take alchemist for explosive missile make sure that your GM will allow it with two-handed firearms, or help getting it FAQ'd.


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You can sneak attack with any weapon. The louder the better. Normally I recommend yelling "SNEAK ATTACK!" a split second before you attack. It is too soon to grant your opponent their Dex bonus. They are still flat footed if they don't know you are there before you attack. Imagine their surprise when bury your greataxe in their torso! It works the same with a party popper like a culverin except that you don't need to yell anything before hand. The gun does the yelling for you.

FYI - I also have a "Ninja" (Cleric) who "sneak attack" (channel smite) and yells "SNEAK ATTACK" just before he attacks. It is super effective. Another character I have names many of his combat maneuvers things like "Cheetah runs up Ogre's back!", "Farmer lashes his jackass!" and "Pluking the apple from branch.", etc. Sometimes you can even do something silly like, "Tiger uppercut!" or "Sonic Boom!" but I recommend you have some kind of energy attack to accompany a maneuver like that.

The Exchange

I was still on my first level and came across two iron golems that had a DR of 10. All I did was scratch the paint off of it at point blank. I aso like sniping, i wanted to get some extra damage before i was spotted.


It can work but you need to mess with vision for it to work well.

A one level dip in Oracle (Flame) will let you see through fog and smoke. Oracle (Waves) will let you see through fog and mist, a Goz Mask will do the same.

Then you create the fog, smoke or mist and proceed to full attack everyone from 10-30 ft away, because you have total concealment and they don't.

If you can figure out some way to get the See in Darkness universal monster ability you can play fun tricks with darkness. You can already do this to some degree against foes who lack darkvision.


The best way to up damage as a musket master is to fire more, and that means staying a musket master. At level 3 you should take the rapid shot feat, which combines with rapid reload (muskets), fast musket deed, & alchemical cartridges to fire twice per round - this will result in a much greater increase in damage than any class will give you. At level 5 you get DEX to damage on each hit, which also should be a bigger damage boost than 2 levels in any class can give you.

The decent set of early feats for a musket master is:

lvl 1: rapid reload(musket) free for being musket master, point blank shot
lvl 3: rapid shot
lvl 4: deadly aim
lvl 5: precise shot

After level 5 the musket master can do well by changing class, but the musket master still has a few 'tricks' to increase damage. Musket training increases damage by +1 every 4 levels and then there are deeds. The level 7 deed 'dead shot' is not to be overlooked against creatures with DR or which are really hard to hit, and at level 11 a MM can combine signature deed with the bleeding wound deed to add DEX bleed damage to every attack. Admittedly these are nothing compared to the pistolero who can take signature deed with up close and deadly, but they have to be factored into the value of taking a new class. Personally I find 'dead shot' too valuable to ignore and would never switch class until level 7, but others might not find that to be true. When taking another class consider the effects of the BAB on the number of attacks made, a musket master 5/fighter 6 gets 4 attacks/round while a musket master 5/rogue 6 only gets 3 attacks/round which can result in less damage per round.

---edit---
WRT to the DR 10 golems, a musket master is one of the few able to do any damage with a ranged weapon at level 1.

If you think the DM is going to keep tossing high DR encounters your way then you can invest some gold in special materials for bullets (adamantine should have worked against the iron golems), I recommend combining them with level 1 scrolls of abundant ammunition. You ought to buy some special materials to make into bullets anyway (make them with gunsmithing, do not buy them premade - 61G for an adamantine bullet is just too expensive), but usually it is something which isn't needed for the first few levels.

Grand Lodge

First off, Iron Golems are CR13. As a first level character, there is something very wrong with the system if you are able to do more than scratch one. It also has DR 15, even adding your sneak attack damage won't do much. This is pretty much one of those "going to need adamantine" situations.


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Thraintar Ironshield wrote:
I was still on my first level and came across two iron golems that had a DR of 10. All I did was scratch the paint off of it at point blank.

Well, THERE'S your problem!

(that, and the continued insistence on wearing silly red paint on your cheeks...)

You might find that, at first level, your firearms are also ineffective against greater demons, colossal dragons, gods, tarrasques, etc.

Pick on someone your own size! Go find an orc to shoot, or a goblin, or if you must play David and Goliath, then look for an ogre. Leave the high-level, high-difficulty monsters alone. For now. Give your gunslinger time to grow up before he has to play with the big boys.

p.s. Flaming Weapons won't help you against iron golems either. FYI.

Shadow Lodge

My guess would be that he was playing high tier for something like Trial by Machine.

The Exchange

Conman the Bardbarian wrote:
My guess would be that he was playing high tier for something like Trial by Machine.

Yes i was playing Trial by machine. It didnt help that other characters where at a level 4-5. Plus I did get them flat footed the first round. I original thought the DR was 5 but when one one of the player found out through a knowlage check. I decided to stay away from the fight and amaizing that whole adventure i didnt recive dammage, Which was odd.

I looked into Ninja in Ultimate combat and it has pretty good ninja talents that i can use Such as Deadly Range: +10ft on sneak attack (it stacks). I can use the Rouge talent in excange for the ninja talent.


Thraintar Ironshield wrote:
I aso like sniping, i wanted to get some extra damage before i was spotted.

Do you have a silencer? (There are wondrous magical items for this).

Sniping with loud firearms should be problematic. If nothing else, this qualifies as "sounds of battle" which is 10 points easier to perceive than a standing man (Perception rules). I suggest that sniping with unsilenced firearms should set the DC for the Stealth check 10 points harder (so it's 10 points easier for the other guys to perceive the sniper). Not exactly RAW, but based on RAW.

If you don't really care about verisimilitude in your games, you could rule that muskets make the same amount of noise as longbows, and they don't leave a small white cloud of burned gunpowder hanging in the air, either. If you make this ruling, then Snipe away. But if you want your games to have that illusion of realism, then applying the same penalty as "sounds of battle" applies makes perfectly good sense.


Thraintar Ironshield wrote:
Conman the Bardbarian wrote:
My guess would be that he was playing high tier for something like Trial by Machine.

Yes i was playing Trial by machine. It didnt help that other characters where at a level 4-5. Plus I did get them flat footed the first round. I original thought the DR was 5 but when one one of the player found out through a knowlage check. I decided to stay away from the fight and amaizing that whole adventure i didnt recive dammage, Which was odd.

I looked into Ninja in Ultimate combat and it has pretty good ninja talents that i can use Such as Deadly Range: +10ft on sneak attack (it stacks). I can use the Rouge talent in excange for the ninja talent.

Your GM is brutal. I don't think he likes you. Maybe it's the red paint on your cheeks...

But making you start at level 1 when everyone else is level 4-5 is pretty harsh. Making characters that level fight iron golems is even more harsh. Letting you dip rogue, with or without the painted cheeks, is icing on the harshness cake.

The least he can do after all the pain he's putting you through is give you a silencer...

Shadow Lodge

DM_Blake wrote:
Thraintar Ironshield wrote:
Conman the Bardbarian wrote:
My guess would be that he was playing high tier for something like Trial by Machine.

Yes i was playing Trial by machine. It didnt help that other characters where at a level 4-5. Plus I did get them flat footed the first round. I original thought the DR was 5 but when one one of the player found out through a knowlage check. I decided to stay away from the fight and amaizing that whole adventure i didnt recive dammage, Which was odd.

I looked into Ninja in Ultimate combat and it has pretty good ninja talents that i can use Such as Deadly Range: +10ft on sneak attack (it stacks). I can use the Rouge talent in excange for the ninja talent.

Your GM is brutal. I don't think he likes you. Maybe it's the red paint on your cheeks...

But making you start at level 1 when everyone else is level 4-5 is pretty harsh. Making characters that level fight iron golems is even more harsh. Letting you dip rogue, with or without the painted cheeks, is icing on the harshness cake.

The least he can do after all the pain he's putting you through is give you a silencer...

It's PFS...Year of the Robot.


Conman the Bardbarian wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:
Thraintar Ironshield wrote:
Conman the Bardbarian wrote:
My guess would be that he was playing high tier for something like Trial by Machine.

Yes i was playing Trial by machine. It didnt help that other characters where at a level 4-5. Plus I did get them flat footed the first round. I original thought the DR was 5 but when one one of the player found out through a knowlage check. I decided to stay away from the fight and amaizing that whole adventure i didnt recive dammage, Which was odd.

I looked into Ninja in Ultimate combat and it has pretty good ninja talents that i can use Such as Deadly Range: +10ft on sneak attack (it stacks). I can use the Rouge talent in excange for the ninja talent.

Your GM is brutal. I don't think he likes you. Maybe it's the red paint on your cheeks...

But making you start at level 1 when everyone else is level 4-5 is pretty harsh. Making characters that level fight iron golems is even more harsh. Letting you dip rogue, with or without the painted cheeks, is icing on the harshness cake.

The least he can do after all the pain he's putting you through is give you a silencer...

It's PFS...Year of the Robot.

Playing up in a 1-5 with a level one character usually amounts to roll some skill checks and let everyone else fight while you hide in the back. It isn't the most fun but you get rewarded with more gold than you otherwise would earn. PFS can be lots of fun, this is really a corner case and I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Shadow Lodge

I agree, I would go with the advice cnetarian gave above and use the extra gold earned to buy some bullets made from special materials.

The Exchange

DM_Blake wrote:
Thraintar Ironshield wrote:
Conman the Bardbarian wrote:
My guess would be that he was playing high tier for something like Trial by Machine.

Yes i was playing Trial by machine. It didnt help that other characters where at a level 4-5. Plus I did get them flat footed the first round. I original thought the DR was 5 but when one one of the player found out through a knowlage check. I decided to stay away from the fight and amaizing that whole adventure i didnt recive dammage, Which was odd.

I looked into Ninja in Ultimate combat and it has pretty good ninja talents that i can use Such as Deadly Range: +10ft on sneak attack (it stacks). I can use the Rouge talent in excange for the ninja talent.

Your GM is brutal. I don't think he likes you. Maybe it's the red paint on your cheeks...

But making you start at level 1 when everyone else is level 4-5 is pretty harsh. Making characters that level fight iron golems is even more harsh. Letting you dip rogue, with or without the painted cheeks, is icing on the harshness cake.

The least he can do after all the pain he's putting you through is give you a silencer...

I had 50gp and an oil of silence is 250gp. Someone found an adimintine dagger to deal with them.

Grand Lodge

Conman the Bardbarian wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:
Thraintar Ironshield wrote:
Conman the Bardbarian wrote:
My guess would be that he was playing high tier for something like Trial by Machine.

Yes i was playing Trial by machine. It didnt help that other characters where at a level 4-5. Plus I did get them flat footed the first round. I original thought the DR was 5 but when one one of the player found out through a knowlage check. I decided to stay away from the fight and amaizing that whole adventure i didnt recive dammage, Which was odd.

I looked into Ninja in Ultimate combat and it has pretty good ninja talents that i can use Such as Deadly Range: +10ft on sneak attack (it stacks). I can use the Rouge talent in excange for the ninja talent.

Your GM is brutal. I don't think he likes you. Maybe it's the red paint on your cheeks...

But making you start at level 1 when everyone else is level 4-5 is pretty harsh. Making characters that level fight iron golems is even more harsh. Letting you dip rogue, with or without the painted cheeks, is icing on the harshness cake.

The least he can do after all the pain he's putting you through is give you a silencer...

It's PFS...Year of the Robot.

It is not uncommon in PFS to play across a 5 level range. It is also not uncommon for a 1st level character playing with a group of 4th - 5th level characters to feel somewhat less useful. That particular adventure has a bad habit of making some people feel useless anyway.

funny story:
There is a creature with a fascination gaze attack behind an auto closing door. One of the PC had really bad luck with his will saves, and spent the entire combat opening the door, getting fascinated, losing the rest of his turn, then reviving when the door closed at the end of the round. Did this every turn for like 3 or 4 turns.

Flaming wouldn't have helped you, they had hardness, not DR, flaming would have done next to nothing. (That said, you at least get a nice extra reward of double hazard pay for playing with the big boys.)

One issue you are going to tun into is that PFS is a very "offense" heavy play style. That is to say that your characters are going into other peoples homes / temples / caves to explore, rescue, and sometimes loot, that means that in general to fight someone you have to go to them, not lure them to come to you. That means that often sight lines are short. (You go around a corner, and there is a patrol. Or you are dealing with someone in a room underground that is on the side of a 5 foot hallway) Sniping is awesome when it comes up, it is probably not a great idea to build around always getting to snipe.

Sovereign Court

Gregory Connolly wrote:
Playing up in a 1-5 with a level one character usually amounts to roll some skill checks and let everyone else fight while you hide in the back. It isn't the most fun but you get rewarded with more gold than you otherwise would earn. PFS can be lots of fun, this is really a corner case and I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Yeah - I did that a couple times with my bard. Being a bard I was actually pretty useful for skills, but in combat I mostly just hid behind cover and inspired everybody else while chucking the occasional javilin or cast Vanish on somebody.

Grand Lodge

I have several times seen someone bring a level 1 frontline fighter to a 4-5...

It just never ends well. They either spend the game doing almost nothing, or they frontline and die, or (in one rather memerable case) my character spends the entire combat hanging from the ceiling above them, soaking attacks of opportunity to cast healing spells to keep them alive. (We were winning easily, my bard wasn't doing much else useful, and the player was 10, and super excited about his fighter and wanted to show off what he could do, and unfortunately, most of what he could do was provide an extra target for the NPCs whirlwind strike ability.)


Thraintar Ironshield wrote:
I am a Dwarf Musket Master level 1 going into level 2. Im trying to decide which class i should go into in order to gain extra damage into my starting firearm. I already got point blank shot, and i wonder if i should go into Rouge for sneek attack or should I go a difrent way and save money to enchance my starting gun with flaming enhancement (for example).

Instead of Rogue, take 2 levels in Ninja. Make your first Ninja Trick the Ninja Vanishing Trick. Spend a Ki Point to turn Invisible as a Swift Action, so now you attack your victims' Flatfooted, Touch AC and you get Sneak Attack Damage.

Next, take 3 levels in Monk and be a Drunken Master. Replentish Ki by drinking, so you can Vanish as much as you want.

Drunken Ninja with a Gun!

The Exchange

Can can the gunsmith feat buy amunition for 10% of a price (including powder kegs). I got this wicked idea about using a powder keg to blow up a room of monsters. Because it deals 5d6 points of fire dammage in a 20ft radius. Now include a alchemist fire. Would that clear a room with a buch of monsters? And include that with sneak attack of any leavel would it deal more d6 damage?


Get some adamantine bullets and that particular type of problem will go away.

The Exchange

Scott Wilhelm wrote:


Instead of Rogue, take 2 levels in Ninja. Make your first Ninja Trick the Ninja Vanishing Trick. Spend a Ki Point to turn Invisible as a Swift Action, so now you attack your victims' Flatfooted, Touch AC and you get Sneak Attack Damage.

Next, take 3 levels in Monk and be a Drunken Master. Replentish Ki by drinking, so you can Vanish as much as you want.

Drunken Ninja with a Gun!

LOLZ!!! I Will have sevral bottles of beer for that.

Or i can grab the Extra ki feat.


Or you could just keep taking levels in Ninja so your Ki will keep growing alongside your SA bonus.

The Exchange

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Or you could just keep taking levels in Ninja so your Ki will keep growing alongside your SA bonus.

Ysh. im going 5 levels in Musket Master and then get a level in Ninja. then go to ninja level 4. then switch back to Gunslinger.


4 levels in Ninja? What will your 2nd Ninja Trick be?

The Exchange

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
4 levels in Ninja? What will your 2nd Ninja Trick be?

2nd: Deadly Range (+10ft with sneak attack)

4th: Rouge tallent: Suprise Attack


Going ninja and not getting vanishing trick seems odd.


avr wrote:
Going ninja and not getting vanishing trick seems odd.

Yeah, I agree. Surprise attack is nice, but Vanishing Trick is clearly better. They stack: go ahead and get Surprise Attack, but get Vanishing Trick first. Maybe forget about Deadly Range. Get Vanishing Trick first, then Surprise Attack 2nd. Be all Stealthy to sneak up on your victims. Attack with Surprise against Flatfooted, Touch AC, Vanish, then do it again.

The Exchange

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
avr wrote:
Going ninja and not getting vanishing trick seems odd.
Yeah, I agree. Surprise attack is nice, but Vanishing Trick is clearly better. They stack: go ahead and get Surprise Attack, but get Vanishing Trick first. Maybe forget about Deadly Range. Get Vanishing Trick first, then Surprise Attack 2nd. Be all Stealthy to sneak up on your victims. Attack with Surprise against Flatfooted, Touch AC, Vanish, then do it again.

I got a charisma modifier of +0. So a level 4 ninja would get 2 ki points. I can try to bost my Charisma by leveling. Or i get the extra Ki feat.

The Exchange

I found out that a pistolero arctype can deal an extra 1d6 damage when you spend with 1 grit. plus sneak attack, another d6. That means at 2nd level when you spend a grit point and sneak attack you deal +2d6 dammage.

So if you want a combo that deals sneak attack and deal havy damage I'll, would go for pistolero 1/ Ninja 1 (or rouge).


As you gain more levels in Ninja, you gain more Ki. But it was with the expectation of Charisma dumping that my build concep calls for 3 levels in Monk, Drunken Master, so you can replentish your ki just by drinking more.

Another quick way to get an extra 1d6 damage is with 1 level in Brawler with the Snakebite Striker Archetype.


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Definitely don't go rouge; you'll just look embarrassed all day long...


DM_Blake wrote:
Definitely don't go rouge; you'll just look embarrassed all day long...

Ah, rogues a lot of cool stuff, that's lots of it isn't combat related: Coax Information, Charmer, Black Market Connections, and many other feats like that are very useful if you are in a campaign roleplaying happens a lot.

Single-classed rogues quickly find themselves over their heads in combat. Most Rogue Combat abilities involve running away or getting out of harm's way so they can a few rounds later sneak up on somebody and take them out with a single, well-placed hit from out of nowhere. But dipping a few levels in Rogue can really make a martial character much more powerful. Ninjas are better at that kind of Combat, but Rogues are better at those role-playing tasks.

And while it's fair to say that a lot of campaigns are not designed to be places where Rogues shine, that more an issue with with Pathfinder Community than with the game itself, a case of rogue-hate begetting rogue-hate.

Grand Lodge

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:
Definitely don't go rouge; you'll just look embarrassed all day long...
Ah, rogues a lot of cool stuff...

I think you missed the (intentional?) misspelling.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:
Definitely don't go rouge; you'll just look embarrassed all day long...
And while it's fair to say that a lot of campaigns are not designed to be places where Rogues shine, that more an issue with with Pathfinder Community than with the game itself, a case of rogue-hate begetting rogue-hate.

Oh, no, you completely missed my point (which I made more than once in this thread, actually; see post #3 and post #12).

As for me, I don't hate rogues. I love them.


Okay, I see what you did there. Missed it before. Cute.

Grand Lodge

*cough* reroll character as a kobold bushwacker *cough*

Liberty's Edge

Can't believe no ones mentioned the Musket Master 5/Sanctified Slayer X build yet. Sure it doesn't get as much sneak attack, but Dex to damage, sneak attack, studied target bonus to attack and damage, the Bane ability, useful spells including invisibility and Silence (for eliminating the sound of gunfire), domain abilities (animal companion anyone?) and above all, the two classes have great ability score synergy. And you can even use solo tactics to pick up Friendly Fire Maneuvers so that your teammates don't provide cover for opponents.

Or you could just stick with Musket Master all the way. Trust me, you're not going to be hurting when it comes to the damage department, you just need to have some different ammo like most ranged characters. And a little UMD for scrolls of Abundant Ammo wouldn't hurt either.

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