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Azten wrote:

It's people like this that give Psionics the stigma it's gotten...

I agree with kestrel287's suggestions fully.

I thought the stigma was because so many people didn't understand Psionics. (like me)


I've not really liked points based powers mixing with level based ones, is why I shy from them. Plus it's just another "magic powers" class and there's enough.


Mana Chicken wrote:
So off topic. Is having a level 8 sorcerer with a fire breath weapon that does anywhere between 24-84 damage good? 30 ft. cone.

That's an odd range. Was that meant to be 14D6, for 14-84?

If so... Depends on the range and number of uses. It's a decent crowdsweeper but I wouldn't aim it at anything important. Draconic bloodline's breath weapon (I assume that's the source?) is really tricky to get good use out of unless you have a lot of resources to play with that aren't normally available. Trust me, I've done my damnedest to make it awesome.

Anzyr: You brought in...

1. A 3.5 spell
2. One of the weakest ways to spend points or spell slots in the game

And used that to make a comparison? You're talking about the Psychic Warrior, but now you're bringing in things out of context and intentionally weak uses of resources*. An actual comparison, of course, is impossible because we don't know what the Warrior's A-game is, so as you well know there is no answer to the "which would you rather have" question.

What I do find interesting is that Body Adjustment is Self-only. If that's true-- I didn't bother cross-checking-- than this player has been cheating there, since he's cast it on other targets.

*Somewhat forgivable given that we don't know many of his powers, but it's a jump from "he plays games with it" to "he casts it as a combat spell".


Hey, I used to hate 3PP stuff, too. I thought they were way overpowered and unbalanced.

Then I read a thread that gave me pause - maybe my dislike of 3PP was unjustified. So I started a thread asking the community their thoughts. And then I gave it a try.

And boy did I find out how wrong I was.

Are some 3PP overpowered or unbalanced? Sure. But there are several publishers who make fantastic stuff that fit perfectly with the Paizo material that is not over powered. Under powered, or unbalanced. Dreamscarred Press' material is *the* shining example of that, recognized as top notch by all the publishers of Pathfinder material, both Paizo and 3rd party publishers - as well as the top reviewers and players.

Give my thread a read, as well as the thread I linked to in my opening post. You may find that you actually like some 3PP material.


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kestral287 wrote:

Anzyr: You brought in...

1. A 3.5 spell
2. One of the weakest ways to spend points or spell slots in the game

And used that to make a comparison? You're talking about the Psychic Warrior, but now you're bringing in things out of context and intentionally weak uses of resources*. An actual comparison, of course, is impossible because we don't know what the Warrior's A-game is, so as you well know there is no answer to the "which would you rather have" question.

What I do find interesting is that Body Adjustment is Self-only. If that's true-- I didn't bother cross-checking-- than this player has been cheating there, since he's cast it on other targets.

*Somewhat forgivable given that we don't know many of his powers, but it's a jump from "he plays games with it" to "he casts it as a combat spell".

But... Those were the exact powers the OP was complaining about. You can't complain about specific powers being used - and then when someone does a comparative analysis also complain that those same powers aren't a valid comprison.


bookrat wrote:
But... Those were the exact powers the OP was complaining about. You can't complain about specific powers being used - and then when someone does a comparative analysis also complain that those same powers aren't a valid comprison.

There is no comparative analysis for Dimension Swap. The fact that he had to resort to a 3.5 spell is pretty clear evidence of that, I would think.

The healing, sure-- if we have any evidence that it's being used. But thus far the only (legal) use of it that we've seen is playing games.


There's a spell that switches people with teleportation if you're attacked. Hostile Juxtaposition. It's pretty high level, sitting midrange.


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kestral287 wrote:
bookrat wrote:
But... Those were the exact powers the OP was complaining about. You can't complain about specific powers being used - and then when someone does a comparative analysis also complain that those same powers aren't a valid comprison.

There is no comparative analysis for Dimension Swap. The fact that he had to resort to a 3.5 spell is pretty clear evidence of that, I would think.

The healing, sure-- if we have any evidence that it's being used. But thus far the only (legal) use of it that we've seen is playing games.

I don't see the evidence. Pathfinder is very commonly referred to as 3.75, so using a 3.5 spell for comprison seems extremely valid to me, especially if there isn't a Pathfinder equivalent. This is what you do when you don't have an immediate source for comparison - you find another source and compare as best you can. This is how comparative analysis is done across every single field and discipline in every professional organization in the world. Quite literally.

As for the healing - I am really baffled by what you're trying to say. There is very specifically direct evidence that it's being used - it was literally the second main point of the OP's starting post. It's one of two primary things he was complaining about. So comparing the healing power with a healing spell is exceedingly valid.

I get a strong impression that you're trying to dismiss the points just so you won't be shown wrong.


... Ah dammit. Had a long post and it got eaten.

Okay. Short version. 3.5 is ultimately third-party to Pathfinder. For a comparative analysis to actually mean something more than "third party is balanced against itself", we need to tie one of those to Pathfinder. Anzyr needs to go the extra step of actually making a qualitative argument that the 3.5 spell is balanced for a PF 6th-level caster, or he is most definitely not comparing "as best he can". Thus far his only argument is that he would allow it, which is... pretty meaningless, especially given Anzyr and spells.

Healing. I didn't explain myself well and that was my fault; I had some unstated assumptions that I took for granted.

1. Healing sucks in combat. We can agree on that, right?
2. As an extension of the above, yes, the Healing power sucks in combat. Does it matter that it sucks more than the Cure spells? Not really, no.
3. The above would change only if we knew that the Psychic Warrior actually was using his healing in combat. To my knowledge we do not (if I missed a quote, by all means correct me-- there's a nebulous thing about his cohort I know)
4. Combat is really the only place where the amount of healing matters.

Well, that's a bit of an absolute statement, so I'll bring it down: the OP's discontent is irrelevant to the amount of healing, but rather tied to the frequency of healing.

The character is self-inflicting wounds in a non-combat scenario, meaning that the damage being dealt is pretty much arbitrary (unless he's actually rolling damage there, which... well. I'm going to hope there's enough reason in the world that he's not wasting that much time). It's a case where Anzyr's analysis becomes immaterial, because pretty much any amount of healing would cover it. That, paired with the out-of-combat use, brings it strictly to an endurance question... and we already answered the endurance question, didn't we?

Grand Lodge

Mana Chicken wrote:
So off topic. Is having a level 8 sorcerer with a fire breath weapon that does anywhere between 24-84 damage good? 30 ft. cone.

You are good dude, if that's your focus.

RANT ABOUT 3PP vs Paizo:

---------------------
Since this topic has derailed into if 3PP publishers are balanced or not let's talk about Paizo being a 3rd party publisher.

Pathfinder is a reincarnation of 3.5. Is it balanced to 3.5 - no it is not. Is 13th Age balanced to 4th Ed D&D and Pathfinder... no

Before someone starts saying "what are you talking about? It's not comparable to or even close to using rules from them... stop...yes it does look at the OGL.

Is advanced class guide balanced to base classes in the core rule book... 60% of the people I game with say no.

Let's all take a moment to stop comparing systems and publishers against one another. Some are "balanced" to your game play style. Several are not.


-----------------------
End result back on topic:

It seems we have identified that Mana Chicken's co player isn't following the rules of his created character.

more ranting crazy talk:

If you only want to use "Official Paizo" products then use the official gosh darn bloody site

paizo.com/prd

People should stop complaining that someone pulled it off d20pfsrd.com It's a 3rd party site. if you use "official" then stick with the "official" site. Do not be surprised is someone pulls something like the " most crazy imbalanced class ever ".

If you want to expand your game (Specifically if it is a homebrew) check out other companies products. IE 3rd Party Publishers, then I strongly encourage d20pfsrd.com*

*I am a 3PP, and in my home tables sometimes its official only, sometimes it's if you brought the book, then you can use it.


I think bring in the validity of 3.5 3rd party spells to talk about 3.5 3rd party classes is pretty much moot.

Both 3rd party.


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kestral287 wrote:

... Ah dammit. Had a long post and it got eaten.

Okay. Short version. 3.5 is ultimately third-party to Pathfinder. For a comparative analysis to actually mean something more than "third party is balanced against itself", we need to tie one of those to Pathfinder. Anzyr needs to go the extra step of actually making a qualitative argument that the 3.5 spell is balanced for a PF 6th-level caster, or he is most definitely not comparing "as best he can". Thus far his only argument is that he would allow it, which is... pretty meaningless, especially given Anzyr and spells.

Healing. I didn't explain myself well and that was my fault; I had some unstated assumptions that I took for granted.

1. Healing sucks in combat. We can agree on that, right?
2. As an extension of the above, yes, the Healing power sucks in combat. Does it matter that it sucks more than the Cure spells? Not really, no.
3. The above would change only if we knew that the Psychic Warrior actually was using his healing in combat. To my knowledge we do not (if I missed a quote, by all means correct me-- there's a nebulous thing about his cohort I know)
4. Combat is really the only place where the amount of healing matters.

Well, that's a bit of an absolute statement, so I'll bring it down: the OP's discontent is irrelevant to the amount of healing, but rather tied to the frequency of healing.

The character is self-inflicting wounds in a non-combat scenario, meaning that the damage being dealt is pretty much arbitrary (unless he's actually rolling damage there, which... well. I'm going to hope there's enough reason in the world that he's not wasting that much time). It's a case where Anzyr's analysis becomes immaterial, because pretty much any amount of healing would cover it. That, paired with the out-of-combat use, brings it strictly to an endurance question... and we already answered the endurance question, didn't we?

I honestly don't want to bother responding this. A 3.5 spell is the *best* comparison in this case. Why? Because Pathfinder'c Core Rule Book is literally copy and pasted 3.5 spells. Guess how many of them got level changes? To use a spell from the game that Pathfinder isn't just derived from, but is in many ways copied from, seems extremely appropriate.

But fine: Let's compare to a first level Wizard ability.

The teleportation subschool ability Shift has the following benefits:

1. It allows for movement in any direction limited only by line of sight.
2. It does not require an ally to be present in order to do anything at all.
3. Shift is freely a Swift Action ability.
4. Is (SU) with all the benefits, including not provoking an AoO.

Compare to Dimension Swap:
1. Only allows movement to a location an ally is at (since Psychic Warrior).
2. Moves your ally as well.
3. Is a standard action.
4. Cannot swap large targets unless treated as a 3rd level spell equivalent.

Shift is a 1st level ability. And it is superior in many way to Dimension Swap. The only situation where it is not superior is when you need to move an ally (who must be in close range) to your location. That's a pretty situational "benefit" over Shift. Particularly when outside the situation, Shift is superior. Even if you want to treat the benefit of being able to move an ally to your location as something more important then all of Shift's benefits, Dimension Swap is already a 2nd level power, meaning it can't be accessed until later then Shift. So even assuming you some how wanted to treated Dimension Swap as a higher level ability, it already *is*.

It's certainly no Dimension Door, so that puts a limit of 3rd level on it. And with the limitations and the fact that it's almost always weaker then a 1st level ability make level 2 power look very accurate.

Regardless of the accuracy of it's level, you have yet to make any argument as to why Dimension Swap is overpowered. The ability to swap places with an ally might be occasionally tactically convenient (even if it costs a standard), but it's not going to result in the Psychic Warrior curb stomping an encounter. It's best use in terms of "winning an encounter" (that won't help much til later) would be moving next to a high value target and swapping places with a full BAB class to allow for a full attack. Considering the costs involved and the other ways such full BAB classes can get full attacks (like say by being archers) this is hard to even call a real advantage.

Healing *does* suck in combat. But so what? The comparison doesn't change if we look at out of combat healing. Either you are using wands and *both* abilities are equally meaningless, or CLW/CMW is still superior, since it can be used on other party members and will get people up to full health quicker. Again, your argument is if anything is in favor of Body Adjustment not being overpowered, since combat healing is bad, and the Psychic Warrior could use CLW wands to achieve the same effect out of combat.

So you have yet to show that *either* of these things are overpowered and even argued in favor of Body Adjustment being underpowered, due to how useless combat healing is.

And again, this is before we even get into actually *overpowered* spells. There are no Psionic Powers that can compete with Blood Money, Lesser/Greater/Planar Binding, Simulacrum, Gate, etc. None. Do you know why? Because Powers are more balanced then spells.

As to OP's question, it depends how often you are able to that amount of damage and how consistently. Compare versus a wayang spellhunter + magical lineage + lesser maximize rod damage spell of your choice.


Shift is superior to basically every second-level spell in the game anyway. Not a great a comparison point there either.

On the healing... "both are equally meaningless" was basically my point, so good to see that we're on the same page.

As for why I haven't made any argument about why it's overpowered-- I never said or implied that it was. I've got no problem with Dimension Swap or Body Adjustment-- but my game and my table are not the OP's game or table. My comments are addressed at your methods, which are incredibly flawed and not exactly indicative of anything, but you assert them as truths in the OP's game without real support.


kestral287 wrote:


As for why I haven't made any argument about why it's overpowered-- I never said or implied that it was. I've got no problem with Dimension Swap or Body Adjustment-- but my game and my table are not the OP's game or table. My comments are addressed at your methods, which are incredibly flawed and not exactly indicative of anything, but you assert them as truths in the OP's game without real support.

You mean except for all the numbers and actual comparison to other abilities that exist in the game? Game or table doesn't matter when the topic of balance is involved since balance is compared to other abilities in the game. Ya, you are either arguing for arguments sake or unwilling to be convinced at this point.


Convinced by what, exactly?

Your numbers for healing are fine; healing numbers are just... not meaningful. Your numbers on Dimension Swap are nonexistent (not strictly problematic because it's not really a numerical ability), and the comparisons are another third-party spell and a class ability that's designed to scale far better than low-level spells anyway.

And for that matter... what point of mine are you actually arguing with? Again; I've only attacked your methods.


kestral287 wrote:

Convinced by what, exactly?

Your numbers for healing are fine; healing numbers are just... not meaningful. Your numbers on Dimension Swap are nonexistent (not strictly problematic because it's not really a numerical ability), and the comparisons are another third-party spell and a class ability that's designed to scale far better than low-level spells anyway.

And for that matter... what point of mine are you actually arguing with? Again; I've only attacked your methods.

My methods are logical and consistent. Free scaling is a vital advantage that spells have over Psionics which I have aptly demonstrated. I have brought in fair comparisons for dimension swap. You may not like them, but the comparisons are not inaccurate and point to Dimension Swap not being higher then a 3rd level power, with a fair expectancy of being a 2nd level power.

The point I was initially arguing since you seemed to have forgotten was your point that a Bard was more useful and would have greater reach thanks to having more spells then the Psychic Warrior can manifest 3rd level powers on top of free scaling. This remains accurate.


Anzyr wrote:
The point I was initially arguing since you seemed to have forgotten was your point that a Bard was more useful and would have greater reach thanks to having more spells then the Psychic Warrior can manifest 3rd level powers on top of free scaling. This remains accurate.

... Remind me when I made that point? Please, quote it.

I pointed to the Bard, as a 6th-level caster, having less combat endurance than this specific Psychic Warrior. Endurance. That was it. It was countering a comment regarding how the GM of this specific Psychic Warrior must be giving him fifteen minute work days.


kestral287 wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
The point I was initially arguing since you seemed to have forgotten was your point that a Bard was more useful and would have greater reach thanks to having more spells then the Psychic Warrior can manifest 3rd level powers on top of free scaling. This remains accurate.

... Remind me when I made that point? Please, quote it.

I pointed to the Bard, as a 6th-level caster, having less combat endurance than this specific Psychic Warrior. Endurance. That was it. It was countering a comment regarding how the GM of this specific Psychic Warrior must be giving him fifteen minute work days.

And as I demonstrated in regards to this particular Psychic Warrior a Bard does not have less combat endurance and in fact has more, even before bringing Bardic Performance into the mix.


In my experience, Dreamscarred Press's psionics are very well balanced.

Keep in mind that you can choose to resist any power or spell cast on you. If your cleric buddy casts Cure Light Wounds on you, you can make a Will save to resist it.

Likewise, if this guy is Dimension Swapping with you and you don't want to be transported then make a Will save.

But a player shouldn't be casting spells on his allies unwillingly. That person wouldn't last in an adventuring group for long, I'd certainly kick him out.

Dark Archive

PW is useing feats for extra points, very similar to the feat called extra slot. The bard could spend their feats on extra slot for more spells per day.

Paizo themselves state they do.'r believe everything needs to be 100% balanced against everything else. I will not be searching the threads for a quote on it.

While I would also be upset the player was cheating, I don't really think the PW is horrible. I think DSP 1/2 giant is better then it should be, I don't agree with all their powers or in thier Bo9S product, all the manueverd, But I don't think it is too far off, and it is definetly not worse than so much of Paizo's own material that wracks everything all over the pl e.

Once the cheating like using the right type of action, standard vs. Full, and allowing saves.I really do.'r see this player as a problem from what we see of it.

I would wonder if discounting the PW as an ally might intereact with stuff like if a bless or bats song still count both as an ally but I guess the use of that ability, bless caster or bard singer should be able to choose that for themself.

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