Unchained Rogue - Elven Branched Spear path


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It's an Immediate, not a Free.

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Secret Wizard wrote:
PrCs were not a working concept in this game if you ask me. Between archetypes and class options, they were phased out.

I think so too. Taking a PrC is now pretty painful if you have a decent build/progression planned out. I think this is good, in a sense. A single classed character 'should' be more powerful than someone who went on a road trip to smell the flowers. Smelling flowers is nice, and can lead to overlapping on two or three roles; this is nice if you have a party that doesn't have all the bases covered, but in general you end up with a less optimal character (for example, if you show up at game where three PCs are fighters, and you're the 4th guy, I think Mystic Theurge will already be assigned to you by default... :P)

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Secret Wizard wrote:


HEY. I love that trick, I was the first to start recommending Twist Away!

Provide link to that post please... I will try to beat you with another earlier link (although I admit I could have seen this first posted on the Pathfinder Facebook page and not here...)

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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Secret Wizard wrote:

I think it's possible to stay Rogue all the way, but there's little benefit past Opportunist and Imp. Evasion.

Double Debilitation is very nice with a reach build, because you can now inflict the movement penalty in addition to the AC/attack penalty, which prevents them from making 5' steps, thus triggering more AoOs.

Dispelling Strike is also very nice, if you took Minor and Major Magic anyway.

For a reach build, Light Walker can be very helpful, especially if you can arrange to fight in difficult terrain fairly often. (Depends on your party). Biggest downside is it requires ledge walker, which usually isn't on my list.

Remember, if you play a half-elf, you can take the Human FCB (1/6 Rogue Talent). If you start that at level 5, when you get that talent at level 10 it can be an Advanced Talent.


RE: Elven Branched Spear, I think there's a feat in the Melee Tactics Toolbox that removes the cover penalty for trying to attack behind an ally. So that's nice. Wish I could remember the name, though.


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Something like Phalanx Formation.

Silver Crusade Contributor

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Secret Wizard wrote:
Something like Phalanx Formation.

Well done!


London Duke wrote:

I would definately take rogue through 4th level, debilitating injury is crazy strong and makes the rogue one of the best if not the best melee debuffer in the game.

Also be sure to grab Minor Magic (whatever) and Major Magic (Longarm), combined with whirlwind attack, Longarm, Lunge, and a reach weapon you can hit everything in 20ft! Grabbing Arcane Training (Wizard) would let you use a wand of Enlarge person for free expanding that to everything in 25ft. Thats pretty awesome when combined with debilitating injury and riving strike and 25ft on either side is really really alot of space.

It would be very intensive but you could also grab Dazzling Display/Shatter Defenses (or beg a fellow pc to do it) to be able to sneak attack everyone within 25ft with your whirlwind attack.

Actually your natural reach with longarm and lunge is 15', your reach weapon doubles your natural reach, so you can hit 30'. If you enlarge person your natural reach in this setup would go to 20' and reach to 40'.


Secret Wizard wrote:
London Duke wrote:

So did they change how SLAs work?

They did. Now they are exactly what they seem - abilities that are like spells but not actual spells.

By the way, here's the recent SLA FAQ nerf.


UnArcaneElection wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
London Duke wrote:

So did they change how SLAs work?

They did. Now they are exactly what they seem - abilities that are like spells but not actual spells.

By the way, here's the recent SLA FAQ nerf.

still mad that they threw mystic theurge/arcane trickster/EK/arcane archer right back into the bin after giving everyone hope with the early-entry thing.

VMC can be sort of helpful, but it still hurts my heart.


Maybe something like:

Halfelf fighter(mutagenic warrior)1/urogue(thug/scout)6

Pick up dual minded since you get martial proficiencies from fighter. (And elven branch is martial for them too).

Half elves also get access to the huma fcb which is really good

Pick up bruising intellect if you wish to pump int a bit higher or play with a balanced int/chr if you want the rest social skills to be higher.
Something like:

13
19
13/12
14/12
10
7/10

1:patt
1:combat reflexes
3:twist away
5:bookish rogue
7:cornugon smash(via talent)
7:hurtful
(9:lunge)

3:minor magic
5: major magic
7: combat trick
7: something (weapon training, acrobatic, perception instead of survival, bleeding are all nice imo)

The main thing is being able to move, position and still pull off 2 sneak attacks via hurtful. (Or even on the surprise round if you charge a flatfooted opponent) Inflicting sickened/shaken/debilitating with the first and capitalizing on the conditions on the hurtful attack

I really like bookish rogue for the new minor/major magic talents since now there are so many nice spell options
And even out of combat now with unlimited cantrips switching from detect magic to read magic to acid splash to whatever is convenient.

For 1st level spells having access to protect from evil, longarm, shield, mage armor depending on circumstances is also nice.


Patt?


Power attack

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shroudb wrote:
Power attack

It's not all that great for a rogue - even using THF - probably not worth the cost of a feat and 5ish stat points.

After all - even unchained rogues still have accuracy issues - and with debilitating strike hitting at all is often just as important as dealing damage is so as to apply the debuff.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
shroudb wrote:
Power attack

It's not all that great for a rogue - even using THF - probably not worth the cost of a feat and 5ish stat points.

After all - even unchained rogues still have accuracy issues - and with debilitating strike hitting at all is often just as important as dealing damage is so as to apply the debuff.

It's required for hurtful.

Activating is optional^^

But it is useful with scout for when getting flank may be suicide. I mean moving 10ft, getting a sneak, applying shaken sickened debilitating and then following with the hurtful attack, even if not a sneak should be a solid 1d8+16, more if under mutagen and the target is already debuffed


London Duke wrote:
Julix wrote:
... Though CMD goes up so hard! ...

True, and for that reason I would not actually focus on combat manuvers but rather AOOs and debuffing.

Half-Elf: Scout Counterfit Mage (Unchained) Rogue
Ancestral Weapon: EBS
Arcane Training: Wizard (for wands of enlarge person, shield, and longarm)

1. Combat Reflexes
2 Talent. Minor Magic: Acid Splash (Range Touch for sneak attacking)
3. Arcane Strike
4t (FIXED):Signature Wand (Useful for free use of any spell list other than Wizard)
5.Riving Strike

For versatility and damage.

OR

You could also go enforcer (with the 4th level talent) and the Thug archetype instead of Counterfit Mage and be sure to grab the merciful enchant ASAP. (I would think that this build is only really reliable in a game that you could start with Merciful on your weapon.)

On a hit you would do 1d8+(1.5*Dex)+Sneak Attack+ Arcane Strike and they are at -6 AC,-4 Hit, -2 Damage, -4 Skills, -4 Saves.

The super debuffer route to lvl 10 with Double Debilition, they would be at -8 AC, -8 Hit, -2 DMG, -4 Skills, -4 Saves and can only take a move or standard action.

And all of this is applyable by doing non-lethal AOOs.

Just now realized how much of this I didn't understand while reading it the first time:

-- Arcane Training: Wizard "Half-elves with this racial trait have only one favored class and it must be an arcane spellcasting class." - so no +1 hp/sp or alt, instead of in two classes. - For the ability to basically get the wizard spell list for the purposes of wand activation. Counterfeit Mage now only helps with non-wizard spells. It's trapfinding is improved rather than diminished (as most archetypes would) - so the only cost is the 4th level rogue talent, correct? But it seems like it does well enough that you wouldn't need to make your favored class bonus one of a class you'll never use... If you use the Human alt that's a talent every 6 levels, right?

So the cost for better UMD is 4 rogue talents and 2 hp. However, if you have enough money for all those wands it does make you quite magically independent! I like it. But it wasn't important to me in the build I was going for. - On the other hand, this could be good too... how about dumping wisdom hard and pretending to be a sorcerer so intelligent monsters wouldn't target with spells vs willpower? :D I see wearing a robe over the armor, wielding the spear (as so many other sorcerers have done before, even if it's a cooler spear).

Anyways, I'm still slightly in love with the Half-elf who thinks he's a halfling. --- Is there a way to actually make a elfling (i.e. Humanoid (Halfling/Elf) (ideally not costing a feat) instead of Humanoid (Human/Halfling/Elf) as I'd be getting with the Racial Heritage feat?

Scarab Sages

Julix wrote:
Is there a way to actually make a elfling (i.e. Humanoid (Halfling/Elf) (ideally not costing a feat) instead of Humanoid (Human/Halfling/Elf) as I'd be getting with the Racial Heritage feat?

Not using existing rules/lore. There might be a Dark Sun conversion somewhere as there was an Elfling as the star of a Trilogy. Otherwise you can homebrew one using the race creation rules in the ARG.


London Duke wrote:

I would definately take rogue through 4th level, debilitating injury is crazy strong and makes the rogue one of the best if not the best melee debuffer in the game.

Also be sure to grab Minor Magic (whatever) and Major Magic (Longarm), combined with whirlwind attack, Longarm, Lunge, and a reach weapon you can hit everything in 20ft! Grabbing Arcane Training (Wizard) would let you use a wand of Enlarge person for free expanding that to everything in 25ft. Thats pretty awesome when combined with debilitating injury and riving strike and 25ft on either side is really really alot of space.

It would be very intensive but you could also grab Dazzling Display/Shatter Defenses (or beg a fellow pc to do it) to be able to sneak attack everyone within 25ft with your whirlwind attack.

I just now went to look up longarm and it's a flat +5 to reach - so while enlarge person doesn't work well on halflings (i.e. become medium... yay) - longarm would do what I want it to! :)

size was my main reason to go with Half-Elf with Halfling Heritage, so this might save a feat. I don't think I'd need more than 15 ft range normally. Also while enlarge takes away strength (and size bonus to hit, right?) this one doesn't affect that.

I was also liking Helf-Elfs Exotic proficiency access - but if it costs a feat to be halfling like for archetype etc might as well just be halfing to begin with and pay the damn feat for the spear. :)


Another go at this weapon:

Be elf (so it's martial).

As mentioned you can dip Fighter (Mutagenic Warrior) for martial prof., nice BAB, Feat and HP.

You could also go Alchemists (Grenadier/Vivisectionist) for martial prof, longarm and other extracts, not missing sneak attack progression, will+ref saves and still getting mutagens.

The fighter example didn't have his STR dumped, so he didn't have to suffer so hard from not having Finesse at lvl 1 - taking and retraining isn't an option in PFS and expensive anyways - and it's a common houserule to let a character take a new feat when a class grants a bonus feat that they already have. Talk to your GM.

If you're in Pathfinder society though, and you did dump your str you don't get to take Vivisectionist anyway, so you might try and just use the bombs for the first level, then go rogue.

Alternatively, if you don't care for trapfinding (nor mutagens and extracts) you could take a level of Unchained Rogue (Swashbuckler) to get that martial proficiency, and normal rogue progression off the getgo.

Another possibility in PFSociety play would be to play first with the finesse feat (up to 3 xp) and then change up the character just before you level. Given how small the change would be it wouldn't matter in character and it's legal by PFS rules.

Strange that Elves have a harder time getting the prof for the weapon than Half-Elves, but as a side effect they'd also be proficient with the curved blade and longbows and other stuff.

So it is quite doable, but I haven't yet found a good reason to do so.

Elven rogue alt fav class bonus is to increase the uses per day for minor and major magic rogue talent, so that's useful.

Elven magic replacement "Envoy" gets some useful cantrips (and comprehend languages) 1/d

Urbanite, Silent Hunter, Lightbringer (to avoid carrying torches and/or to provide distractions against people who can't see in the dark... cast it on a stone, put it in a breakable light-proof container and throw it such that it breaks on impact somewhere away from where you're hiding) -- eh. Not really seeing anything amazing.

Can you see any reason to be Elven rather than Human, Half-Elven, or Halfling?

EDIT: While Dex to Damage is nice, can you think of other classes that might benefit from finessing the Elven branched spear? Can a Magus deliver spells in AoOs? - Any other contexts in which it doesn't matter that you damage very little on a hit, but it matters for you to hit? A tripper, a disarmer or some combat-maneuver addict parhaps.

1st lvl Human Brawler with Combat Expertise and Weapon Finesse could pick up improved trip or things like that... And his AC sucks, so maybe that's a reason to dex? still I'm not quite seeing it.

I'm in love with this weapon and I want to build and then play SOMETHING that uses it to an impressive effect. Still haven't quite found what though...


Julix wrote:

Another go at this weapon:

Be elf (so it's martial).

As mentioned you can dip Fighter (Mutagenic Warrior) for martial prof., nice BAB, Feat and HP.

You could also go Alchemists (Grenadier/Vivisectionist) for martial prof, longarm and other extracts, not missing sneak attack progression, will+ref saves and still getting mutagens.

The fighter example didn't have his STR dumped, so he didn't have to suffer so hard from not having Finesse at lvl 1 - taking and retraining isn't an option in PFS and expensive anyways - and it's a common houserule to let a character take a new feat when a class grants a bonus feat that they already have. Talk to your GM.

If you're in Pathfinder society though, and you did dump your str you don't get to take Vivisectionist anyway, so you might try and just use the bombs for the first level, then go rogue.

Alternatively, if you don't care for trapfinding (nor mutagens and extracts) you could take a level of Unchained Rogue (Swashbuckler) to get that martial proficiency, and normal rogue progression off the getgo.

Another possibility in PFSociety play would be to play first with the finesse feat (up to 3 xp) and then change up the character just before you level. Given how small the change would be it wouldn't matter in character and it's legal by PFS rules.

Strange that Elves have a harder time getting the prof for the weapon than Half-Elves, but as a side effect they'd also be proficient with the curved blade and longbows and other stuff.

So it is quite doable, but I haven't yet found a good reason to do so.

Elven rogue alt fav class bonus is to increase the uses per day for minor and major magic rogue talent, so that's useful.

Elven magic replacement "Envoy" gets some useful cantrips (and comprehend languages) 1/d

Urbanite, Silent Hunter, Lightbringer (to avoid carrying torches and/or to provide distractions against people who can't see in the dark... cast...

reach.

the only finessable reach weapons are this and whip, and whip needs more feats to work.

so something like lorewarden/urogue or skulking slayer or slayer(bounty hunter)/urogue can be used for a rogue specializing in dirty trick or greater trip.

something like lorewarden/urogue can be a debuffing menace, and reach makes it so much better


Here's another thought: Be a Halfling, get Combat Reflexes at level 1, while Unchained Rogue (in the future, alternatively Unchained Ninja if we ever get an official ruling of how to apply Unchained Rogue adjustments to Ninja). At 3rd level get Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Elven Branched Spear) (use a Talent for Combat Trick if you want to get it online at level 2, or get a feat like Bodyguard fast in the meantime, or to fit in Combatyour feats if you are doing some VMC fancy footwork); at 5th level get Defensive Combat Training; at 6th level become a Halfling Opportunist, and take all 5 levels of that to get the ability to make ALL of your Attacks of Opportunity into Sneak Attacks. Then go back to Unchained Rogue/Ninja.

Edit: Originally posted with the idea of take a 1st level dip in Mouser Swashbuckler before remembering that Unchained Rogue now gets Weapon Finesse for free. Still a good idea if you are using Ninja instead of Unchained Rogue and can't get the Unchained Rogue adjustments, and even though Underfoot Assault wouldn't synergize with a reach weapon unless you were up against something really huge, it's still nice to have for juicy opportunities to make the lives of larger enemies miserable.


The unchained Rogue gets dex to damage on that spear. I don't think anything else currently does.

UnArcaneElection wrote:

Here's another thought: Be a Halfling, get Combat Reflexes at level 1, while Unchained Rogue (in the future, alternatively Unchained Ninja if we ever get an official ruling of how to apply Unchained Rogue adjustments to Ninja). At 3rd level get Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Elven Branched Spear) (use a Talent for Combat Trick if you want to get it online at level 2, or get a feat like Bodyguard fast in the meantime, or to fit in Combatyour feats if you are doing some VMC fancy footwork); at 5th level get Defensive Combat Training; at 6th level become a Halfling Opportunist, and take all 5 levels of that to get the ability to make ALL of your Attacks of Opportunity into Sneak Attacks. Then go back to Unchained Rogue/Ninja.

Edit: Originally posted with the idea of take a 1st level dip in Mouser Swashbuckler before remembering that Unchained Rogue now gets Weapon Finesse for free. Still a good idea if you are using Ninja instead of Unchained Rogue and can't get the Unchained Rogue adjustments, and even though Underfoot Assault wouldn't synergize with a reach weapon unless you were up against something really huge, it's still nice to have for juicy opportunities to make the lives of larger enemies miserable.

Is VMC "variant multiclass"? - if so I haven't seen any good options... ideas?

@UnArcaneElection: Yes that's basically what I've been thinking about as well, on paper. I've been doing some sketching. I'd love to do some testing, but I'm actually quite inexperienced in actual Pathfinder gaming. I don't really know what a typical enemy would be - and it's always a group dynamic thing anyways, so I wouldn't know how to experiment with the effectiveness of the build before getting to the table.

I thought about the Halfling going Combat Reflexes first, but because you need it to be finessable that means you can't use the Elven Branched Spear (-4 to hit is bad) and thus you can't reach, making CR kinda pointless.

So 1st level ExProf EBS. 2nd Level I was tempted to make CR to get it up sooner, then 3rd Bodyguard, 4th a rogue talent, then 5th the needed Defensive Combat Training (DCT), and yes then HO and then back to uRogue.

However I love the longarm spell a lot. 50 gp a hit for potions is too expensive. The high UMD check is too hard to pass reliably early on... Halflings can't trade away their favored class bonus for wizards spell list like half-elves can. So I was considering doing 2nd level minor magic and 4th level major magic rogue talent, to get to use it a few times a day... But then Counterfit Mage already takes up that 4th level one, so I won't get it until after HO! -- but perhaps I don't even need those magic talents, with that archetype, as it boosts my UMD use.

However, Bodyguard benefits fromt the helpful halfling trait, which I enjoy a lot... And Signature wand actually would work for one wand at a time... so only longarm. Or only cure light if we don't have other sources of healing available... - Advantage of the Magic talent is that it would have a much longer duration. Then again in PFS (which I might be building this for, if I don't find a homegame to join first) most fights don't last that long and are far enough apart, that duration wouldn't last still.

So let's see:

1 R1 ExProf EBS -- Finesse training, sneak attack +1d6, Magical Exp.(trapfinding deluxe)
2 R2 RT: CR -- Evasion
3 R3 BG -- Danger sense +1, finesse training, sneak attack +2d6
4 R4 RT: Sig Wand -- Debilitating injury, uncanny dodge
5 R5 or Something-else 1: DCT -- ??? class features
6 HO1: Exploitive maneuver, trap spotter, excellent aid (+1)
7 HO2: ??FEAT -- Exceptionally lucky (+2), sneak attack +3d6, improved trap spotter
8 HO3: Fit in, excellent aid (+2)
9 HO4: ??Feat -- Exceptionally lucky (+3), sneak attack +4d6
10 HO5: Opportunity attacker, excellent aid (+3)
11 Something ??Feat
12 Something

So there's 3 stat increases at 4, 8 and 12. Assuming the character survives long enough, and does end up being a PFS char. I'd probably want the 12th one to be something I could survive without if needed... At least one in Dex cause paying for 20 off the bat is rarely worth it. Cha of 15 is too easy to get, not to go for it, so increase at level 8 in that? Last one in Str for carry capacity. Starting stats: STR: 8 DEX: 19 CON: 12 INT: 12 WIS: 10 CHA: 15 -- seem sensible to you?

Feats: I can get improved trip with a dip quite easily, but Greater Trip still requires combat expertise and it's the one that opens up extra AoO that make it worth tripping in the first place... Though I guess they still provoke standing up. So improved trip is still cool.

Are there any rogue talents I missed that I might want to pick up via extra rogue talent feat?

Need some help settling on the feats for 7, 9 and 11 - as well as the class for 5, 11, 12. Rogue is doable, but the drop in BAB at 5 is unattractive and I haven't found much to love in the rest of stuff...

Double debilitation seems cool, but I wouldn't make it to that level (i.e. max R7), which is just 2 sneak attack dice... though at 6th I also get Dex instead of Cha to UMD, which could be good, except at that point I'm level 11, so I should be able to beat DC25 reliably, right? Also not depend on wands as much by that point perhaps.

Rogue's Edge at 5th is maybe interesting... Acrobatics, Diplomacy and intimidate seemed nice, perception okay. Ride had something nice at 10... Any others worth considering? since they're based on rank, at least I'd actually see the 10th level of it.

Brawler was mentioned as a worthy dip for having something to hit people with when they break my reach and come near me. I'm thinking with opportunist I should be able to get lots of "using their attacks to jump here or there" kinda things to reposition myself. - One archetype maintains sneak progression which is cool. But it also costs martial flexibility, which is actually quite amazing. if I did take Combat Expertise as a feat and the normal Brawler dip, that gets at least the "improved [any combat maneuver]" whenever I need it up to a few times a day... though sneak attack is useful on every attack. Another thought: warsighted gets that flexibility too. Not as high BAB though. But opens up some spells. Doesn't open up the "extra revelation" feat, because I'd have to take 3 instead of 1 level to get that. :-S

Sidenote:
I forget, have we talked about Urban Barbarian in this thread yet? 4+con (maybe 5 total, unless extra rage for 6 extra rounds...) +4 dex = +2 to hit and +2 dmg (that is multiplied on a crit, and that actually is +3 damage because we're using two hands...) -- but I guess it doesn't synergize nearly as nicely as alchemist, and that one already has limited usefulness. So nevermind I guess...

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@Julix: I like that idea of Urban Barbarian dip for elf PCs going this round. If that's your first level, you can get the Berserker of the Society trait from the Faction Guide to get +3 rage rounds.

My other idea was using a Tengu. They have an alternate racial trait to gain 3 + Int mod in exotic weapon proficiencies and have the beak for a natural attack, meaning you'll still threaten with adjacent enemies.

Actually, I think I may have to make this PC...

Scarab Sages

Julix wrote:


The unchained Rogue gets dex to damage on that spear. I don't think anything else currently does.

You can get dex to damage with one using the agile enchantment. unchained rogue does it easier, and is the only way to get 1.5 x dex on damage for two handing it.


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Might be worth tossing in Spear Dancer too... another -1 on attack rolls and sight checks for your opponents never hurts.


@Julix: I put Combat Reflexes first with the idea to actually start using the Elven Branched Spear at 3rd level (or 2nd level if you use Combat Trick to get Exotic Weapon Proficiency sooner), because you need BAB +1 to qualify for this feat. But now that you mention Brawler as a starting dip, that is actually good not only for the reasons you stated (especially Martial Flexibility, and ability to attack at close range without needing to draw another weapon), but it also gives you BAB +1 so that you can get the Elven Branched Spear online at 1st level.

And yes, VMC = Variant MultiClassing. I didn't have a specific option in mind, but some people might conceivably want Eldritch Heritage, and if you actually want the whole chain, VMCs Sorcerer does it better.

And fitting in Spear Dancer later on certainly wouldn't hurt.


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The Magus Variant Multiclass option can be really good for Rogues. You can get Prescient Attack to be able to treat foes as flat-footed for the entire round.


fighter gives weapon training as you advance, magus gives you great stuff, wizards' schools are super duper fantastic (conjuration[teleportation] and divination[foresight] are my usual go-to's), bard/inquisitor/alchemist makes you more skillmonkey/combat utility, barbarian gives combat stuff (rage), monk opens the sap master line very painlessly, oracle revalations or sorcerer bloodlines (shadow is great) can open a lot of doors for folks, etc

taloskane makes a great point for the magus.

especially now that the unchained rogue can slap on with one sneak attack:
-2 str (crippling stirke)
-1 str or dex (ninja trick: pressure points)
-2 AC and attack (-4/6/8 vs the rogue, double debilitation) *starts off as 1 round duration, additional hits increase duration by 1 round*

and even more stat damage if they dip 3 in shadowdancer for the free shadow flank-buddy (or a venomous animal companion with the animal ally feat line)... it's a neat gimmick build to consider


AndIMustMask wrote:

fighter gives weapon training as you advance, magus gives you great stuff, wizards' schools are super duper fantastic (conjuration[teleportation] and divination[foresight] are my usual go-to's), bard/inquisitor/alchemist makes you more skillmonkey/combat utility, barbarian gives combat stuff (rage), monk opens the sap master line very painlessly, oracle revalations or sorcerer bloodlines (shadow is great) can open a lot of doors for folks, etc

taloskane makes a great point for the magus.

especially now that the unchained rogue can slap on with one sneak attack:
-2 str (crippling stirke)
-1 str or dex (ninja trick: pressure points)
-2 AC and attack (-4/6/8 vs the rogue, double debilitation) *starts off as 1 round duration, additional hits increase duration by 1 round*

and even more stat damage if they dip 3 in shadowdancer for the free shadow flank-buddy (or a venomous animal companion with the animal ally feat line)... it's a neat gimmick build to consider

you cant pressure points+crippling strike toghether.

although you can easily stack shaken+sicken on top of all those, for something like:
-7 attack (-11 vs the rogue)
-3 damage
-4 saves
-2 ac (-6 vs the rogue)
-4 skills

with a sneak attack at like lvl 12


ah, forgot the asterisk on crippling and pressure points.

you can use pressure points early on until you can grab crippling strike at rogue 10 i guess.


Black Powder Chocobo wrote:

@Julix: I like that idea of Urban Barbarian dip for elf PCs going this round. If that's your first level, you can get the Berserker of the Society trait from the Faction Guide to get +3 rage rounds.

My other idea was using a Tengu. They have an alternate racial trait to gain 3 + Int mod in exotic weapon proficiencies and have the beak for a natural attack, meaning you'll still threaten with adjacent enemies.

Actually, I think I may have to make this PC...

Humans got that heart of the fields thing... what do elves have to prevent being tired all the time (and thus unable to rage unless they take a nap first).


Julix wrote:
Black Powder Chocobo wrote:

@Julix: I like that idea of Urban Barbarian dip for elf PCs going this round. If that's your first level, you can get the Berserker of the Society trait from the Faction Guide to get +3 rage rounds.

My other idea was using a Tengu. They have an alternate racial trait to gain 3 + Int mod in exotic weapon proficiencies and have the beak for a natural attack, meaning you'll still threaten with adjacent enemies.

Actually, I think I may have to make this PC...

Humans got that heart of the fields thing... what do elves have to prevent being tired all the time (and thus unable to rage unless they take a nap first).

you dont need to nap?

barbarian fatigue only lasts 2x rounds you raged.

so if you fight for 5 rounds raging, you just spend a miute and you're fine


shroudb wrote:
[...] you dont need to nap?

Oh yeah! I have no experience with Barbarians and didn't really check them out in detail... I just hade a vague memory of Baldurs Gate that rage fatigued, and usually I'd make them nap then. :D I also was really young when I played it, so I don't think I understood that there might be a timer...

Anyways, reason I'm writing again is because I came back to actually wanting to make the build happen, with EBS running from the start (finessed and ideally with CR asap).

UnArcaneElection wrote:
@Julix: I put Combat Reflexes first with the idea to actually start using the Elven Branched Spear at 3rd level (or 2nd level if you use Combat Trick to get Exotic Weapon Proficiency sooner), because you need BAB +1 to qualify for this feat.

Yes, the build I posted doesn't work, since EWP requires BAB+1 :(

So I looked at other options to get EWP and found the Kensai (the archetype of Magus), where a 1 level dip with Int 12 gives the following:

Feats:
-Exotic Weapon Proficiency (EBS)
-Weapon Focus (EBS +1 to hit)
-Canny Dodge (+1 AC)

Spellstuff:
-Acid Splash at will (DR/SR penetrating range weapon)
-one more cantrip at will (any of magus cantrips)
-1/d 1st spell (4 known, maybe: True strike / Long arm / infernal healing / expedious retreat)
-2/d Magic weapon at 1st CL (via Arcane pool)

No BAB increase, bad skillpoints, great saves (+2 fort and will), d8 hp

EWP(EBS) frees up a feat, the other two are gravy.
The spells free up rogue talents (minor and major magic) and with more flexibility too... adds the spells to spell list which helps for wand use as well (e.g. infernal healing, longarm) -- considered color spray and grease but the DC to save would be too low. True strike would be great for combat maneuvers.

Seems a worthy dip.


Just remember that kensai cannot cast in armor (which you will probably want to wear) so you will have spell failure this way.

And in cases of spells like blend, vanish, etc where spell failure could mean death, eh... I don't know if I would personally count on them

Scarab Sages

Does Debilitating Attack make a Spring Attack Rogue viable again?

Scarab Sages

Catharsis wrote:
Does Debilitating Attack make a Spring Attack Rogue viable again?

Not really, as you only benefit from your own Debilitating Injury if you extend the duration via multiple sneak attacks.


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There's always the Hurtful + Cornugon Smash combo? As far as I understand, you can take a swift action at any point during a full-round action, so, say a Scout Rogue would be able to do the following indefinitely at level 8:
Spring -> Attack -> (Free) Intimidate -> (Swift) Attack -> Spring back -> Take any AoO's you feel like...

Scarab Sages

Hurtful is great, but it's no longer PFS legal, and a Bugbear feat, so it's banned for a lot of PCs. If you are playing with a GM that allows it, it's great.


Ellioti wrote:

according to a recent statement you will get 1.5x DEX to damage, so that is good.

Combat Reflexes, because reach and dex.
2 levels of Slayer or Ranger for the Ranger Combat Style (Two-handed weapon) for picking up Power Attack without the need of 13 STR.
Gang Up might be a nice addition so you can flank from behind your first-row melees.

Avoid dipping with rogues if you can help it. Level 10 Talents are amazing, specially if you can pick Ninja ones.


Why is everyone suggesting thug rogue? Skill unlock (intimidate) at lvl 5 unchained rogue does the same thing (except no sicken, but cruel enhancement can do that for you). This opens up swashbuckler archetype (so you can get skill focus intimidate) or the rake archetype so you don't have to worry about enforcer or non-lethal damage. On that line of thought, spring attack on a fear based build is kinda useless. You want to be near them so when they run away they provoke as many attacks as possible (specially with halfling opportunist). Brawler is nice because you can charge them, punch them unarmed (and enforcer/sap master with scout archtype), and then on their turn they try and run provoking 3 attacks (with long arm. more if enlarged). I could see running bounty hunter slayer after a 5 or more levels of rogue. You already want to boost your CMB for halfling oppertunist, and throwing in dirty tricks on every aoo is pure gold. Make them frightened, entangled, blind, and get 4-5 attacks on them? Sure why not?


Thug is nice for a few reasons. Landing sicken + shaken immediately with a single attack is a lot better than layering them on over the course of two attacks. It frees up a weapon enhancement bonus, which you can use to pick up spell storing if you have a friendly caster ready to prime it with a save-or-suck. Alternatively you can just throw on another +1 to hit (something rogues always want).

Thugging it up also lets you frighten from level 1 onward just by hitting the regular intimidate DC. Yes, you can spike your intimidate number crazy high but often that requires consumables and hyper-specialized equipment (e.g. maiden's helm over circlet of persuasion).

One round of frightened is usually all you need. A frightened guy is basically out of the fight and usually starts a kind of failure cascade where the guy runs away, then you go and bushwhack somebody else's opponent, making them frightened, and so on as your party explores the concept of defeat in detail. I wouldn't devote too many resources toward piling on after somebody is frightened.

If you must do a dip the Divination (Foresight) wizard is really tough to beat. +1 to initiative, the pre-roll ability, always acting in the surprise round, auto-succeeding on many wand activations, spell slots for true strike, +2 to your will save, and a familiar (another +4 to initiative and +2 to perception/sense motive)... yeah. Tough to wait on those level 10 goodies but those are a lot of nice things to have.


If you take the Rake arcehtype instead of thug, it actually frees up a weapon enhancement (since you no longer need merciful) as well as a feat (enforcer). My point was that the big draw of thug (frightening on an intimidate) is something unchained rogues already get for free at level 5. If you want to go back to mimicking the added sicken effect, sure the weapon enhancement stays equal but you are still saving on a feat. Additionally rake lets you drop 1d6s from SA for +5 to intimidate/dice, so if you simply drop the 1d6 you would have lost from thug's sicken ability anyway, your intimidate DC is only 5 higher than the thug's. Oh and with the prescribed build this thread was asking for (elven branched spear) you would either be going half elf with racial heritage 1st feat or halfling with exotic weapon prof (elven spear) so either way you are not getting enforcer until 3rd level. Thug gets the combo online 2 levels earlier than the skill unlock which is nice and the DC is going to be 5 easier which are both excellent points in it's favor, but rogues are pretty feat starved. For normal builds, I most certainly think thug is the better option, but if you are focusing on a elven branched spear on an unchained rogue I think thug is a bit redundant.

As for beating up on them after they are frightened, yes and no. For melee, 1 round of frightened is 2 rounds of removal (1 to run away, 1 to run back). You hit them again and the cycle continues (while on your other turns you do the same thing for another melee combatant). This is crazy good. Because most opponents are melee, usually this will be a good option. On the other hand, for archery users, mages, or creatures with supernatural abilities, it is only 1 round of removal though before they are free to full attack/cast spells/ breath fire. Since they sprinted away, they are too far for you to charge (unless you did the slowing debilitating strike) so you can not continuously keep them removed. Maybe your own mage can take them out or you have a bow user to pick them off but otherwise it is not a very efficient combat option for you. Halfling opportunist gives your sneak attack damage to AOOs and bounty hunter can make them blind (setting up SA on the AOOs) with dirty tricks so your free extra 3 attacks can actually do some damage worth mentioning (5rogue, 5 halfling op is an extra 5d6/attack for an average of 52.5 extra damage above and beyond your normal aoo damage). Combine the 2 dips and nobody can get near you (anything without excessive reach is blinded when they try to move in close to you), so you have an enormously powerful offensive and defensive ability.

Scarab Sages

Imbicatus wrote:
Catharsis wrote:
Does Debilitating Attack make a Spring Attack Rogue viable again?
Not really, as you only benefit from your own Debilitating Injury if you extend the duration via multiple sneak attacks.

I thought the effects were generally until the end of the next turn, so you would profit (and so would the party).

Scarab Sages

Catharsis wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Catharsis wrote:
Does Debilitating Attack make a Spring Attack Rogue viable again?
Not really, as you only benefit from your own Debilitating Injury if you extend the duration via multiple sneak attacks.
I thought the effects were generally until the end of the next turn, so you would profit (and so would the party).

No, its for one round. It ends at the beginning of your next turn, unless you extend it with multiple attacks.

Silver Crusade

I've used the elven branched spear to square the circle on one of the earliest characters I had dreamed up.

The basis is from the Toshiro Mifune character from Yojimbo and Sanjuro:
1) being able to bluff in a big way (Rumormonger from Grand Hoax),
2) being able to Whirlwind Attack a room full of unsuspecting mooks

This is otherwise similar to many of the other builds, with the exception of the cavalier archetype for EBS proficiency and the order of the flame abilities, which allows a 50/50 chance of moving 30' and then full attacking (hopefully against flat-footed foes).

Half Elf
13 str (+1 lvl 4)
18 dex
12 con
13 int (+1 lvl 8)
10 wis
12 cha

1 Cavalier (Gendarme) - Challenge, Mount, order of the Flame (glorious challenge), Pwr Atk, Cmbt Rflx
2 uRogue (Charlatan) - Wpn Finesse, 1d6 sneak, Natural Born Liar
3 Magus (Spire Defender) - Dodge, Cmbt Expt, Impr Feint, EWP (Whip), arcane pool, spell combat
4 Rog - Talent (Coax Information)
5 Rog - Mobility, Dex-->Dmg (Elven Branch Spear), 2d6 sneak, Grand Hoax
6 Rog - Talent (Spring Atk), Debilitating Injury, Uncanny Dodge
7 Cav - Foolhardy Rush, Whirlwind
8 Rog - Rogue's Edge(stealth), 3d6 sneak


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As I have posted elsewhere, I would still like an Elven Swashbuckler archetype that applies Swashbuckler's Finesse to all those Finessable Exotic Elven weapons that are also two-handed. With that in mind, does Unchained Rogue's Finesse Training already cover this (at a brief glance, looks like it, but want to be sure), or do we still need a similar Elven Unchained Rogue archetype to do the equivalent?


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UnArcaneElection wrote:
As I have posted elsewhere, I would still like an Elven Swashbuckler archetype that applies Swashbuckler's Finesse to all those Finessable Exotic Elven weapons that are also two-handed. With that in mind, does Unchained Rogue's Finesse Training already cover this (at a brief glance, looks like it, but want to be sure), or do we still need a similar Elven Unchained Rogue archetype to do the equivalent?

Finesse Training works with the elven curve blade and the elven branched spear, so you add 1.5 your dexterity modifier in place of your strength modifier as damage with two-handed finesse weapons. :)

I think the elven swashbuckler archetype is a great idea! I'm playing an character like that now, but I'm using a 3rd party class since none of the available classes worked very well with the concept. The only thing I'm not 100% sure on is restricting it to only elves and half-elves - there are many dexterous races in the game. Tengus in particular seem like natural candidates for a 2-handed swashbuckler archetype. :)


I forgot about Tengu getting proficiency with a set of weapons that has considerable overlap with Elf. Yes, it would make sense for them to be able to take this archetype as well, although some of their weapons don't fit with this. For example, Greatsword and Falchion come immediately to mind as not fitting, even if you use most of the Earth historical Falchions instead of the heavier Pathfinder Falchion, except that the longest and skinniest curved Falchion in the linked video could pass for an Elven Curve Blade and thus should qualify.

Now we also need a Magus archetype that works well with two-handed weapons (including but not limited to the Finessable ones), but that's a subject for another thread . . . .


Hello community!

Sorry for the wall of text. I tried to make good use of paragraphs so it's not too hard to read, but it's long.

I came back to the thread, because my character reached level 2 meaning (in Pathfinder Society) that I have to now finish up on making decisions and commit to a build (i.e. right now I can still change anything about the character).

Sofar play as Magus(Kensai) 1 has been fun. +8 to hit (+0 BAB, +1 size, +4 dex, +1 WF, +1 mwk, +1 arcane-pool-magic - additional +2 if AoO) meant reliable tripping and some disarming - else bad damage 1d6-1(+1 arcane pool magic). Having just 1 first level slot is harsh, but the Shield spell I put there has been useful.

-----------------------------------

shroudb wrote:

Just remember that kensai cannot cast in armor (which you will probably want to wear) so you will have spell failure this way.

And in cases of spells like blend, vanish, etc where spell failure could mean death, eh... I don't know if I would personally count on them

The lightest armors (my current one) have 0 % ASFC at the cost of AC, but good heavier ones like Darkcloth Leather or Mithral Chain only have 5 and 10 %, so he'll still be able to cast most of the time.

Vanish at CL1 is just one round, which to me isn't worth a standard action. Blend is Elf-only (I'm Halfling) but it's cool enough for a wand and lasts long enough to be cast before fighting begins (especially given that it ends as soon as I attack), so wouldn't matter either way.

I only have one spell slot, and True Strike has no Somatic component. However, I do like keeping Shield in case things get tight. But the reason I'm concerned with ASFC is because Acid Splash was supposed to be my ranged sneak attack in surprise round option, messing it up over ASFC would suck.

That wouldn't happen if I used the spell from the Rogue Talent, right? However dropping Magus for Minor (acid splash) and Major Magic (longarm) doesn't have enough daily uses given the multiclassing, so I'll be using UMD a lot where the Magus wouldn't have to (given careful wand choice).

What would I get from not taking a Magus(Kensai) level? If I stick with rogue everything earlier (including earlier dex to damage) and +1d6 SA and Rogue's Edge before going into Opportunist, rather than after, at the cost of a feat (EWP:EBS) and three rogue talents (WF:EBS, Minor and Major Magic, if I still make those things a priority). What is the early edge worth?

-----------------------------------

Use Headbutt!! wrote:
If you take the Rake arcehtype instead of thug, it actually frees up a weapon enhancement (since you no longer need merciful) as well as a feat (enforcer). My point was that the big draw of thug (frightening on an intimidate) is something unchained rogues already get for free at level 5. [...]

First note that this isn't completely "free" it's at the cost of taking another Rogue's Edge at 5th level (or in my case not dipping the first level).

Note that there's a need of beating the shaking DC by 10 and then a willsave (DC 10+Intimidate Ranks) to avoid the effects, which isn't the case for Thugs. Still good point on freeing up resources, not needing to focus on non-lethal, etc.

Assuming despite being small (-4) I can reliably beat DC by 10, it could makes Dazzling display attractive too, for sending people into fear en-masse, before pounding on them with Shatter Defenses. At the same time, while getting this edge early means giving up Kensai, it also gives more value to the Weapon Focus provided by the dip.

-----------------------------------

It seems I'm not yet done worrying about this build.

Must haves:
- Rogue 4 (for dex to hit and damage, and major debuff)
- Opportunist 5 (for SA on AoO)
- CR (for having AoO).
- ExWP:EBS (for hitting)

This leaves open:
- 1 level before Opportunist and 2-3 levels after
- 4 feats (unless a class or rogue talent grants the above)
- 2 rogue talents (unless used for combat feat or archetype)

Ideas people above have shared:

*Making use of Aid another:
- Aid another to AC feat: Bodyguard (and benevolent armor) seem worth it, since I already am getting CR and will have a reach weapon and armor spikes, so I'll be able to provide some good bonuses to AC.
- Aid another to hit rogue talent: Got your Back (Ex) - sadly a No-Go in PFS, as it's an old rogue talent, right?

*Having Magic available:
- 0th spell: Acid Splash for sneak attacks in surprise round, ignoring SR and many DR.
- 1st spell: Infernal Healing (wand). Shield, Longarm, Grease, ...
Reached via Caster Dip, UMD and/or Minor and Major Magic Rogue talents.

*Hitting hard:
- Power Attack: up to -3 to hit / +9 damage - either with 13 str (11+2 STR enhancing belt) or 2 levels dip (e.g. Ranger(Freebooter) / Slayer(Sniper) for 2-H Fighting style) - Expensive but powerful and opens up other feats, like Cornugon Smash.

*Hitting bluntly:
- Weapon Versatility (Blunt, requires WF), (Bludgeoneer / Merciful weapon enchantment), Sap Adept, Sap Master (double sneak attack damage when using non-lethal-blunt SA on flatfooted enemy), (Enforcer turns this into a lot of shaken-ness, but flanking isn't FF, so needs source of reliable flatfootedness).

*Hitting traumatizingly (despite the -4 from size):
- Shatter Defence (requires WF,DazDis) to make flat footed when already shaken.
- Enforcer (free intimidate when attacking with nonlethal weapon, dmg = # of rounds of shaken)
- Rake Archetype (Give up a SA dice to demoralize, and another / +5 bonus wanted)
- Thug ARchetype (Shaken lasts +1 round and can turn 4+ rounds into 1 round of frightened instead)
- 5th Rogue level for Edge in Intimidate

*Hitting close:
- Brawler or Monk (or Armor Spikes) all allow to threaten nearby, but have different side effects. Brawler can advance sneak attack progression or grant martial flexibility. Monk gets extra feat; Master of Many Styles 2 can get Snake Fang to trigger (unarmed) AoO when missed in melee combat, which synergizes well with Opportunist, the blunt-nonlethal-feat chain above, but not the Elven Branched Spear / current concept of the build.

*Other things menionted:
- Riving Strike (debuff versus spells)
- Spear dancer (debuff to hit)

-----------------------------------

Here's what I had sofar:

1 Feat: CR (retrained from WFin), Magus(Kensai)1: EWP:(EBS), WF:(EBS), CD (+1 AC), Spells, Pool.
2 uRogue(Counterfeit Mage)1: RFin (Dex to hit), +1d6 SA, Magical Expertise (Ex)

3 F: Bodyguard, uR2: Talent: (??Combat trick: Arcane Strike??)
4 uR3: RFin (Dex to Dmg), Danger sense +1, +2d6 SA
5 F: Defensive Combat Training, uR4: Debilitating injury, Talent(fixed) Signature Wand, uncanny dodge

6-10 Opportunist 1-5: Exploitive maneuver, trap spotter, excellent aid (+3), Fit in, Exceptionally lucky (+3), +4d6 SA, Opportunity attacker. F7,9: ??Dazzling Display?, ??Shatter Defences??

11 R5: Edge (intimidate), +5d6 SA, F: Enforcer (used with merciful weapon)
12 R6: Danger sense +2, Talent (??Stand up??)

Checking in:

Level 2: like my experience in level 1, except now I have CR and SA and many skill points, and trapfinding (or intimidation some sort with Thug or Rake).

Many 1st level magus spells available as wands/scrolls. Casting while stabbing someone with armor spikes (at -2) can be a thing.

Level 3: Adds defense to my Party, and I considered taking "Got your Back (Ex)" as a talent, but I guess in PFS you can't take old talents anymore? - I'm not using my swift for anything though, so I figured since as Kensai I actually qualify for Arcane Strike it might be worth it, then realized it's casterlevel-dependent, meaning I'm getting much less bang/buck out of this than a bard would, so I added questionmarks.

Level 4:
Attack with +1 Elven Branched Spear at 1d20+10 (5dex,2bab,1size,1wf,1magic; occasional +2 on AoO, +1 pool) for 1d6+9 (7dex,1strike,1magic; occ. +1 pool) +2d6 SA damage.

So 11-30 attack for 10-15 dmg (12-27 w/ SA) on hit, up to 6 times a round purely hypothetically (i.e. 1 attack and 5 AoO's).

Level 5: Adds debuffs, then Level 6 etc Opportunist stuff, which is going to be colorful, but rather clear (other than which feats to take). No change in the magic department, still dependent on juggling wands. Everything feat wise after 5th lacks drive/purpose, but any wand can be my best friend for the day, so there's probably enough flexibility to cope with that.

At this point how am I getting opportunities to hit people? For example, when they get back up from my trip attacks. I could reconsider adding Greater Trip, to get some on their way down? Or maybe I could try and fit in some of the recommendations from earlier in the thread.

--------------

I've given the fear based rogues (Rake and Thug) some thought...

I could drop my magic support and go full fear:
Rake 1-5 (for roge edge on intimidate), dazzling display somewhere along the way and then shatter defenses at 7. I'm not sure if in this build the Opportunist is even worth it at all though.

I could keep the Magus level (gives me WF:EBS and EWP:EBS aterall), which is needed for Dzzling Display, and take the Thug and grab a +1 Merciful as soon as it's available at Fame 27, about level 5.
(At 2 pp / game and 3 games / level ~> halfway through level 4 (or level 9 at 1 pp / game), assuming I then have enough spare cash.)
I'd have Brutal Beating (Ex) by then, and at 5th level add (Combat Trick: Enforcer).

I'm missing out on the Half-Elvish Skill Focus, their medium size, and they wouldn't need exotic weapon proficiency if they just used two saps to begin with... Bolas as ranged weapons? Can you sneak attack with those?

Anyway, I feel my build isn't synergizing well enough with those concepts, though maybe I just lack some understanding of how it actually works in practice.

------------------

Any guidance on finalizing the build would be much appreciated!

Julix


Alibos wrote:
Ellioti wrote:

according to a recent statement you will get 1.5x DEX to damage, so that is good.

Combat Reflexes, because reach and dex.
2 levels of Slayer or Ranger for the Ranger Combat Style (Two-handed weapon) for picking up Power Attack without the need of 13 STR.
Gang Up might be a nice addition so you can flank from behind your first-row melees.

That's pretty cool! Did not realize I would get that Dex multiplier!

Do you think there's a way to make an EBS rogue without dipping levels?

There is always a way, but a two-handed weapon gets a lot from dipping compared to the standard Rogue. If you are playing pure past a certain point it's for Rogue features that don't directly help the fighting style. They just make you a better Rogue. Which, honestly means I think the TWF style is better in the purist race. If you want to stay pure and use mostly Charge actions with the Scout archetype or something, it's definitely doable, just not as solid on damage as dipping.

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