Kukri vs Sawtooth Sabre


Advice


Was just wondering. When I asked for TWF advice a while ago, I was given the suggestion of the Sawtooth Sabre. I was wondering, why this over Kukri in a Slayer build. Power Attack was suggested, but I am not seeing a benefit from using a one handed versus a light weapon there. So when dealing with a strength build with a slayer, I was thinking the slightly higher critical range and saving yourself a feat seemed like the better idea. So could someone please enlighten me?

Orignial Post: Best way to do TWF now.

Crosswind wrote:

For a full example of a slayer/horizon walker build:

Half Orc Slayer
Sacred Tattoo, Shaman's Apprentice (endurance)
1.) Slayer 1: Power Attack
2.) Slayer 2: Slayer Talent: TWF
3.) Slayer 3: Two-weapon Rend, Sneak Attack: 1d6
4.) Slayer 4: Slayer Talent: Trapfinding
5.) Slayer 5: Double Slice
6.) Slayer 6: Slayer Talent: Improved TWF, Sneak attack: 2d6
7.) Horizon Walker 1, Favored Terrain: Urban, Feat: Outflank
8.) Horizon Walker 2, Favored Terrain: Astral, Terrain Mastery: Astral
9.) Horizon Walker 3, Terrain Dominance: Astral, Feat: Dimensional Agility
10.) Slayer 7
11.) Slayer 8: Combat Trick (Improved Critical), Feat: Dimensional Assault
12: Slayer 9: Sneak Attack 3d6
13.) Slayer 10:Slayer Talent: Greater TWF, Feat: Dimensional Dervish
14.) Slayer 11:
15.) Slayer 12: Sneak Attack 4d6, Feat: Dimensional Savant

I am thinking of using a modified variant of this, but had to go human with my GM not using traits.

Thanks
-Hexen

Scarab Sages

This should be in Advice, as I don't see a rules question.

Basically, The Sawtooth Saber has +2 average damage over the kukri, so you need more static bonuses on the kukri to make up the DPR difference for the crit modifier to make the kukri pull ahead.


Yep, I actually agree with you. People are probably focusing on the base weapon damage more than they should.

Btw, there's issues with the feats you've taken. For example, Two-Weapon Rend, which you've taken at 3rd level, has:
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Double Slice, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +11.

Additionally, have you considered your stats? You're trying to be a strength based attacker, yet your feats have very high dexterity requirements. Thus, you might actually want to go Dex based instead of Str based.

(also, flagged for moving to Advice)


Sorry clicked the wrong link while posting. Thanks


Imbicatus wrote:

This should be in Advice, as I don't see a rules question.

Basically, The Sawtooth Saber has +2 average damage over the kukri, so you need more static bonuses on the kukri to make up the DPR difference for the crit modifier to make the kukri pull ahead.

The Sawtooth Sabre counts as a light weapon in your off hand if you have the Exotic feat Sawtooth Sabre as well.


The main advantage for the Sawtooth Sabre is if you get enlarged and/or cast Lead Blades.

Kukri goes from 1d4 to 1d6 (+1 damage on average).
Sawtooth Sabre goes from 1d8 to 2d6 (+3 damage on average)

The secondary advantage is having the option of two-handing your weapon when you need to. This is more useful if you have Power Attack. (Side note: Power Attack is not that good on a TWF build: you still get only half the bonus on your off hand, even with Double Slice.)

If neither of those situations apply to you, go with the kukri.


I would lean against Power Attack on TWF builds, though I'm sure there's a place where it's good. The penalty to hit on top of the TWF penalty to hit overwhelms the +2 dmg. Every time I've played with a DPR calculator for TWF builds, Power Attacking with TWF results in a decrease in damage.

Sovereign Court

Also - if you wanted to go Dex-to-Dmg, you'd need to dip into Swash & wield a pair of Sawtoothed Sabres. (Not a bad plan really.) Said plan doesn't work with kukri.

Scarab Sages

Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Said plan doesn't work with kukri.

At the moment. The Pathfinder Unchained Stamina Unlock for Slashing Grace strongly suggests that the 2nd printing errata of slashing grace changes the feat to use a light or one-handed slashing weapon.

Sovereign Court

Imbicatus wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Said plan doesn't work with kukri.

At the moment. The Pathfinder Unchained Stamina Unlock for Slashing Grace strongly suggests that the 2nd printing errata of slashing grace changes the feat to use a light or one-handed slashing weapon.

Yeah - though that makes me kinda sad. It'll make TWF dex builds the hands-down most potent in the game. (Making ways to get pounce even more important too.)


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Said plan doesn't work with kukri.

At the moment. The Pathfinder Unchained Stamina Unlock for Slashing Grace strongly suggests that the 2nd printing errata of slashing grace changes the feat to use a light or one-handed slashing weapon.

Yeah - though that makes me kinda sad. It'll make TWF dex builds the hands-down most potent in the game. (Making ways to get pounce even more important too.)

it'll make monks that can deal slashing damage with their unarmed strikes happy. (and less MAD too)


If going with a strength build, there is a lot to be said for double weapons. As a half-orc slayer, you get proficiency in orc double axe for free.

I would also suggest making this a dirty tricks build with the Bounty Hunter archetype, though that would significantly change your build.

And lastly, you should be using the human's favored class bonus to get the bonus talent every 6 levels. Note that half-orcs also count as human and can receive this bonus.


Personally, when making a strength based TWF out of slayer or ranger I don't see the point if spending the feat on sawtooth sabers over the kukri.

It's two points of damage, you can eventually make that up. Or at least make it not matter as much. On a slayer, sneak attack can help with this and that extra feat enables you to bring together other feat chains like Improved Two Weapon Feint which allow you to Sneak Attack more often. Making that +2 damage from the weapon not as good.

You just have to weigh the options.

Honestly, it's only worth it to mean if you want to make a dex based TWF, which then requires a dip into swashbuckler to get dex to damage.


Or, y'know, you could just use the Agile weapon enchantment. TWF builds tend to be rather feat hungry, so it may easily be worth it to spend a bit of gold instead.

Scarab Sages

On two weapons, that's a lot of gold.


You either spend gold or spend feats on a feat starved build. Just go strength based and rock an orc double axe.

Sovereign Court

Plus there's no way to get Agile to give full dex-2-dmg for the offhand attacks. For TWF w/ Slashing Grace it's debatable whether Double Slice is required, or if Slashing Grace does so inherently. (I lean towards yes - but based upon the wording there are valid arguments both ways.)

Scarab Sages

And then, Double Slice specifically doesn't work for an unchained rogue's finesse training post-FAQ.


If you are going dex based, you may be better off to just use the unchained rogue. The main reason to go Slayer with Two Weapon Fighting is to go strength based. Sure you can do a dex based build, but you don't get anything special out of it.

Sovereign Court

Melkiador wrote:
If you are going dex based, you may be better off to just use the unchained rogue. The main reason to go Slayer with Two Weapon Fighting is to go strength based. Sure you can do a dex based build, but you don't get anything special out of it.

And full BAB, combat feats, studied target, high Fort saves, d10 HD, Shield Master at 6, and...

It plays a rather different role.

Though 4 levels of Rogue and then into Slayer could be also be pretty darned mean.

Dark Archive

Why on earth would you get Shield Master if you're TWFing with kukris?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

you can get dex to damage on kukris (sawtooth sabres too, but you can's get dex to hit on them without spending the gold for agile or dipping swashbuckler)...

you have to be a human (or half-human), and a fighter (or one of the many other classes that count as fighter for feats). start with weapon finesse, weapon focus[sawtooth sabre], and slashing grace[sawtooth sabre]... yes, those are right for the kukri build (don't bother with ewp, you'll never actually dual-wield sawtooth sabres)... at 4th level (or as soon as you count as fighter 4) take martial versatility[slashing grace]- now all light blades use Dex to hit and damage!

i know OP was looking for a Str 2WF build, but i thought i'd just throw this out there to show what is possible in Dex builds.

Scarab Sages

nate lange wrote:

you can get dex to damage on kukris (sawtooth sabres too, but you can's get dex to hit on them without spending the gold for agile or dipping swashbuckler)...

you have to be a human (or half-human), and a fighter (or one of the many other classes that count as fighter for feats). start with weapon finesse, weapon focus[sawtooth sabre], and slashing grace[sawtooth sabre]... yes, those are right for the kukri build (don't bother with ewp, you'll never actually dual-wield sawtooth sabres)... at 4th level (or as soon as you count as fighter 4) take martial versatility[slashing grace]- now all light blades use Dex to hit and damage!

i know OP was looking for a Str 2WF build, but i thought i'd just throw this out there to show what is possible in Dex builds.

This doesn't work for several reasons.

Martial Versatility doesn't work with Slashing Grace unless you also take Martial Versatility with Weapon Focus. You need Weapon Focus as a prerequisite or you lose access to the feat. You also need ewp with sawtooth sabers to take weapon focus with them, as proficiency with the weapon is a prerequisite for the feat.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Sawtooth sabre counts as a martial weapon except for the purpose of being treated as a light weapon with 2wf, so you don't need EWP to take weapon focus if you're proficient in martial weapons (unless there's an FAQ I'm unaware of).

As for not being able to use slashing grace without a separate weapon focus... I've never seen martial versatility ruled that way before, but rereading it i can see the case for that interpretation- a second martial versatility for weapon focus solves that (and gives you +1 to hit with pretty much any weapon you'd use).


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Also - if you wanted to go Dex-to-Dmg, you'd need to dip into Swash & wield a pair of Sawtoothed Sabres. (Not a bad plan really.) Said plan doesn't work with kukri.

No, the idea was to do Slayer so I would do Strength TWF, thus cutting down on feat use drastically.

Scarab Sages

nate lange wrote:
Sawtooth sabre counts as a martial weapon except for the purpose of being treated as a light weapon with 2wf, so you don't need EWP to take weapon focus if you're proficient in martial weapons (unless there's an FAQ I'm unaware of).

Well, you can use a sawtooth sabre as a longsword with martial proficency, but it would then be weapon focus longsword, not sawtooth sabre.

Scarab Sages

Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Also - if you wanted to go Dex-to-Dmg, you'd need to dip into Swash & wield a pair of Sawtoothed Sabres. (Not a bad plan really.) Said plan doesn't work with kukri.
No, the idea was to do Slayer so I would do Strength TWF, thus cutting down on feat use drastically.

For a strength build, I would go with a double weapon or a one handed weapon and cestus. Both options allow you to either two hand the weapon when you can't full attack, or use your off hand for spell casting or wand use if needed.

Dark Archive

Scimitar + Cestus is a damn good option for Str-based TWF guys. It's not the most DPR possible, but it's effective and easy.

Scarab Sages

Seranov wrote:
Scimitar + Cestus is a damn good option for Str-based TWF guys. It's not the most DPR possible, but it's effective and easy.

You can also use the cestus in a grapple, unlike a double weapon.

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