"Nicest" way to get a real Hag for a Witches coven.


Advice


"Nice" is relative since to my knowledge all hags are evil aligned. However i'm basically trying to figure out how theoretically a PC could get "access" to a Hag for purposes of his/her coven.

Lets assume the PC witch is question is Neutral to good. They may walk an ethically grey line, but they'd rather not go outright evil. Keeping an evil creature from doing evil while simultaneously using them for your own benefit is the kind of ethically grey area in question.

The only thing that comes to mind is some kind of long-term mind control. I imagine this would be in the form of a dominate monster item.

Any other ideas or experience with something like this?

Silver Crusade Contributor

The nicest way? Who needs the hag? ^_^

If you were feeling really luxurious, though, try redeeming one.

Liberty's Edge

If the witch PC is at least 9th level then they can use an item to skip the Hag requirement entirely:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/iron- collar-of-the-unbound-coven

EDIT: Darned ninjas!

Silver Crusade Contributor

Sorceress, actually. ^_^

blows kiss


Burn the witch/hag/sorceress?


Nice. Expensive, but Worth the Price of Admission I think.

Silver Crusade Contributor

I actually used the Collar for an encounter in Carrion Crown. 3 changelings - an accursed sorcerer, a witch, and a hexcrafter magus - lurking in a ruined town in Virlych. Plus, this feat.

Good times. ^_^

Silver Crusade Contributor

kyrt-ryder wrote:
Burn the witch/hag/sorceress?

Eek!


Ohh, Changelings. Forgot about them. Though admittedly don't know that much about them. Aren't they technically hags? Would they work for such a purpose?

Silver Crusade Contributor

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Ohh, Changelings. Forgot about them. Though admittedly don't know that much about them. Aren't they technically hags? Would they work for such a purpose?

Unfortunately, no*, although that'd be a great ability for them to gain.

*Not until their becoming, anyway... and then things just aren't the same. ^_^


Leadership feat for a Blood Hag cohort.

Effective cohort level is 16.

I really wish we could more official hag cohorts for lower level, but is is nice we have at least the one.

Planar Ally/Binding for a Night hag.


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Helm of opposite alignment.

For you or the hag. Either way someone will be more comfortable working with the other.


If you are looking for official options, ignore this. If you are open to homebrew, try this.

Coven Leader

We though that it was wierd that witches couldn't create covens without too much hassle, so we made this Major Hex.


A Simulacrum of a Hag might suffice - ask your GM.


Why is the requirement to have a hag there in the first place? As a GM I would house rule it out if anyone bothered to express interest in forming a coven. I can't see the issue even coming up in a RAW only environment since those are by definition organized play and aren't friendly to long term cooperative character building.


Evil is often happy to get paid. If the cash is there, they do not care.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
The only thing that comes to mind is some kind of long-term mind control. I imagine this would be in the form of a dominate monster item.

Permananet enslavement by mind control? Oh, that's not evil at alllll.


LazarX wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
The only thing that comes to mind is some kind of long-term mind control. I imagine this would be in the form of a dominate monster item.
Permananet enslavement by mind control? Oh, that's not evil at alllll.

No need to be permanent

Designer

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Atarlost wrote:
Why is the requirement to have a hag there in the first place? As a GM I would house rule it out if anyone bothered to express interest in forming a coven. I can't see the issue even coming up in a RAW only environment since those are by definition organized play and aren't friendly to long term cooperative character building.

It's tricky because some of the at-will spell-like abilities are very powerful for a 1st-level character to have (honestly unlimited use of mind blank at will without spending spell slots is so useful and important at high levels, even 20th-level characters would be extremely enthused by it).


LazarX wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
The only thing that comes to mind is some kind of long-term mind control. I imagine this would be in the form of a dominate monster item.
Permananet enslavement by mind control? Oh, that's not evil at alllll.

Of an otherwise inherently evil creature is what I'd call grey area. You're keeping them under control to prevent them from doing others harm.


i think that mind control on an evil creature is a very neutral thing to do, especially when you're chaotic.


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At the risk of continuing an alignment-based discussion, being "chaotic" doesn't mean you're opposed to slavery. Just not, y'know, your slavery. ;)


thats my point. Chaotic neutral would totally enslave a hag.


Kalindlara wrote:

The nicest way? Who needs the hag? ^_^

If you were feeling really luxurious, though, try redeeming one.

Bleah . . . That item sounds almost as bad or potentially even worse -- the physical description makes it sound like you have to be a headhunter (or at least benefit from the services of one) to make this item.

And even being out in the ACG, it doesn't even do anything for the Accursed Bloodline Sorcerer who has the equivalent of the Coven Hex as Bloodline Arcana.


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Okay I'm just gonna go all out here, totally politically incorrect, unfiltered, no time to censor myself, top of my head, harshness brought on by privileged bigotry:

Don't hags, like...deserve to be headhunted?


^That very much depends upon who you talk to, of course . . . .

* * * * * * * *

By the way, also see this.


Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
The only thing that comes to mind is some kind of long-term mind control.
Permananet enslavement by mind control? Oh, that's not evil at alllll.
You're keeping them under control to prevent them from doing others harm.

No, you're keeping them under control to reap personal benefits. It's Evil. A good kind of Evil maybe, but Evil still.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
VRMH wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
The only thing that comes to mind is some kind of long-term mind control.
Permananet enslavement by mind control? Oh, that's not evil at alllll.
You're keeping them under control to prevent them from doing others harm.
No, you're keeping them under control to reap personal benefits. It's Evil. A good kind of Evil maybe, but Evil still.

You're not going to get hag benefits in a coven unless they are full volountary participating members.


The pc could befriend a changeling, earn their trust and do things they are grateful. Then have the changeling become a full hag. Sure the hag is now evil, but that doesn't have to say that they forget all their former friends.
In the end there is one coven with two parts. The hag and her inner circle and the pc and their traveling companions (no use in a coven if you are the only member in the group.)


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^If you got a Changeling to become evil by metamorphosis, that would itself be a heinously evil act.

Now if some Changeling underwent metamorphosis in a way that DIDN'T make her evil, that would be another matter. But that's probably not anything you could cause, or if you could, it would be an evil act by way of posing enormous risk to the Changeling. Say, that's an interesting backstory: Changeling gets tricked and abused by supposed friends, and gets metamorphosed, but manages to avoid becoming evil, but now has to deal with all of the rest of the consequences of metamorphosis, including nobody else being willing to believe that she's not evil (and worse, she's visibly of the Seaborn Bloodline and this happened at low level, so not enough hit dice for a Paladin or reasonable Inquisitor to be able to prove her non-evil, even if such could be found).

Scarab Sages

Why enslave the hag? If you aren't a paladin there is nothing stopping you from associating with evil. You can be neutral and still be on cordial terms with a hag. They like to be paid, and just because a creature is evil, it doesn't mean you have to enslave it to get it to help you or even to not betray you. They are intelligent, respect power, and will tend to keep to the letter of any deals as long as there isn't a C in the E. LE because they are lawful, and NE out of enlightened self interest if nothing else.


Mind control on hags? Not as easy as you might think. They all have SR and they all have good Will saves for their CR. The night hag, for instance, has SR 24 and a +11 Will save. A 10th level caster throwing Dominate with a +8 modifier and Spell Penetration would have just a 22% chance of success. And that's before the second "against its nature" save. So, you'd better be able to spam Dominate. (You also better first hit the hag with Dimension Anchor so she can't just go ethereal or Plane Shift away while you're spamming.)

Sea, Green, and Annis hags are easier to deal with, but they're still quite tough for creatures of their CR. The green hag, for instance, is only CR 5, but it has SR 16 and Will +7. A sixth level caster throwing Suggestion with +6 and Spell Penetration would have about a 30% chance of making this spell stick. Again, your odds are of course much better if you can immobilize the hag first and spam the spell at her. Good luck with that.

Doug M.


Planar Binding would in theory work great. If you call a night hag, once bound she is compelled to obey you for the duration of the binding (up to 1 day/level). So, no need to mess about with mind control or what have you.

However:

1) The Night Hag is, for a creature of its CR, unusually hard to call and bind. It has SR 24, a +11 Will save, and a 17 Cha. If you run the numbers, that means you're going to have difficulty calling it and binding it unless you have invested some resources in optimizing your PC for planar binding. (For tips on how you might do this, see DMDM's Guide to the Diabolist.)

2) Sadly, if you're not evil you will probably lose out on some of the night hag's best abilities. What's a night hag normally good for? Trading in soul gems; or using Dream Haunt to drive someone insane or kill them; or helping you murder someone permanently by casting Soul Bind. All of those tend pretty strongly towards evil. You can still use her to build a coven around, but you won't be using her strengths.

3) A night hag is exactly the sort of creature that will carry a grudge forever and look to get revenge. Not that evil outsiders generally are full of sweet forgiveness, of course. But the night hag is a creepy, malevolent loner who's optimized for sneaking and murder. Your DM would IMO be perfectly justified in turning the hag into a recurring enemy. A recurring enemy with high intelligence and the ability to travel the planes and go ethereal and will. Just sayin'.

Doug M.


Oh, and if you're short a hag, you can always call up a swaithe demon to replace one member of the coven. The bad news is, the swaithe is a demon and chaotic evil. The good news is, it's a relatively feeble CR 4 creature -- not at all difficult to call and bind with Lesser Planar Binding, and relatively easy (for a demon) to Dominate or otherwise control.

Doug M.


Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

Oh, and if you're short a hag, you can always call up a swaithe demon to replace one member of the coven. The bad news is, the swaithe is a demon and chaotic evil. The good news is, it's a relatively feeble CR 4 creature -- not at all difficult to call and bind with Lesser Planar Binding, and relatively easy (for a demon) to Dominate or otherwise control.

Doug M.

The Swaithe can join a Coven, but doesn't remove the requirement that att least one member of the Coven must be an actual Hag.


Some posts of interest:

Witch coven powers: alternative needed to not break AP
Enough forced good makes it good.

Simulacrum
JJ on simulacrums.

A Coven of Lovin'
Where I disagree with JJ.

Witch Coven hex questions
Breakdown of coven spell like powers.

/cevah


Covens scream for more development. Right now, with a few exceptions that swap or add some Coven SLAs, they all have the same Coven powers regardless of the level/HD of individual members.


Y'know, I already have my ideas in order, UAE, but I'd honestly be pretty keen on something of the sort being submitted for Wayfinder's monster issue. You (or someone else) should consider writing in!

Silver Crusade Contributor

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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Y'know, I already have my ideas in order, UAE, but I'd honestly be pretty keen on something of the sort being submitted for Wayfinder's monster issue. You (or someone else) should consider writing in!

I've actually written something on that exact subject. ^_^


^Is this something that you can give us a link to?


Something not covered in the linked thread discussing Coven SLA is the additional/alternate spells gained when the Coven contains certain types of Hag or other creatures. Most of those probably hadn't been published yet at the time of the thread though.


^That's what I meant by "a few exceptions that swap or add some Coven SLAs". I think it would be a LOT cooler if Coven abilities actually started out low, but improved with the Coven members, and had real choices for the Coven to make, much like building a spellcasting character. You could still offer default choices (preferably several of them) to help time-squeezed GMs who just need to pop up a Coven quickly.


Did some exploring in the bestiary download [27Jul2014]:

Hag Covens
Hag Covens When three hags of any type gather, they can form a coven to gain increased magical ability. Any combination of hags can form a coven, but green hags are the most common members of such foul gatherings. Whenever all three hags of a particular coven are within 10 feet of one another, all three of them can work together to use any of the following spell-like abilities: animate dead, baleful polymorph (DC 18), blight (DC 17), bestow curse (DC 17), clairaudience/clairvoyance, charm monster (DC 17), commune, control weather, dream, forcecage, mind blank, mirage arcana (DC 18), reincarnate, speak with dead, veil (DC 19), vision. All three hags must take a fullround action to take part in this form of cooperative magic. All coven spell-like abilities function at CL 9th (or at the highest CL available to the most powerful hag in the coven). The save DCs are Charisma-based, and function as if with a Charisma score of 16 unless one of the hags has a higher Charisma score, in which case the spell-like ability DCs are adjusted by that hag's Charisma modif ier. At the GM's discretion, certain more powerful hag covens might have additional spell-like abilities.

Graeae
Coven (Ex) Like hags, graeaes also form covens. A graeae coven can be composed entirely of graeaes, or could or include hags or witches with the coven hex. A hag or witch with the coven hex counts as a graeae for purposes of joining a graeae's coven. Likewise, a graeae counts as a hag for purposes of joining a hag's coven.
Whenever three or more graeaes of the same coven are within 10 feet of one another, they can work together to use any of the following spell-like abilities: clairaudience/clairvoyance, commune, contact other plane, speak with dead, and tongues. All three graeaes must spend a full-round action to take part in this form of cooperative magic. All coven spell-like abilities are CL 9th (or at the highest caster level available to the most powerful graeaes in the coven).

Blood Hag
A hag coven containing a blood hag loses access to the control weather and speak with dead spell-like abilities. Instead, the coven gains access to death ward, fire storm, and nightmare. When all three hags of the coven are within 10 feet of one another, the other hags gain the fire immunity and spell resistance of the blood hag. Blood hags absolutely loathe submitting to the authority of others, and rarely form covens with other blood hags or with any hags of power comparable to or greater than their own.

Storm Hag
Like other hags, storm hags form covens. They prefer to form these covens with other storm hags, but storm hags have been known to team up with green hags or other hags on occasion. Storm hags inhabiting stormy coasts or soggy salt marshes sometimes ally with sea hags and form covens with them. Though they respect the strength of annis hags, few storm hags enter into a coven with those brutish and simple creatures. When they do, the storm hags rely on the annis hags' intimidating physical might to help in their hunts. A storm hag is an attractive prospect for any burgeoning coven-to-be, but these hags aren't easily wooed into joining with others. A storm hag is haughty and views her way of doing something as the best, if only because she is the one doing it. Any hag thinking of forming a coven with a storm hag would do well to ride a fine line between flattery and outright dominance by performing simultaneous acts of humble depravity and honorific evil. The other two hags in a coven with a storm hag gain her child-scent ability as long as they are within 100 feet of the storm hag. In addition, a coven with a storm hag as a member has access to the following spell-like abilities beyond what a normal coven provides: call lightning storm (DC 18), plague stormUM (DC 19), quench (DC 16), whirlwind (DC 21), wind wall. Like other covens, all three hags must be within 10 feet of one another and must work together and take a full-round action take part in this cooperative magic. For more information about hag covens, see page 167 in the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary.

Swaithe
Swaithes can join hag covens and contribute to the coven's cooperative magic. Because of its smaller size and weaker power, a swaithe is often treated as a little sister or daughter by the rest of the coven. Any coven that includes a swaithe can add giant vermin, animal growth, and insect plague to the spells the spells they can cast together.

Winter Hag
Winter hags are sadistic crones who haunt winter-blasted plains and rime-covered forests. They're exceptionally arrogant, and often use their magic to subjugate entire tribes of evil humanoids so they can rule over them as queens. These arrangements rarely last more than a few seasons, because no creature is truly safe from a winter hag's irrepressible appetite for warm, raw flesh. An ambitious winter hag might extort a village by causing constant snowfall until they give her children to eat or adults to become her slaves. A typical winter hag stands between 5 and 6 feet tall and weighs 100 pounds. When a winter hag joins a coven, the coven adds sculpt simulacrum and simulacrum to its spell-like abilities, and any member within 1 mile of the winter hag gains icewalking and snow vision.

Witchfire
Witchfires occasionally join or subjugate existing hag covens (see page 167 of the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary). A hag coven that includes a witchfire gains the following additional coven spell-like abilities: 3/day-blight, create undead, fire storm (DC 21), nightmare (DC 18), waves of exhaustion (DC 20). All abilities function at CL 9th, and save DCs are based on a Charisma score of 16. The use of these abilities functions identically to other coven abilities. Such covens must have at least one living hag, as covens of three witchfires gain no coven-related abilities.

/cevah


Wouldn't Polymorph any Object work?

The way I see it, 5 for animal, 2 for humanoid, 2 for same size. That is 9 points. Just change your buddy!

Your Paladin wouldn't mind!


Helm of Opposite Alignment?


All my PC witches are evil, not that they have to be, rather because they are. Adding a hag to any coven for my witches is easy peasy, and pretty "nice" for me as well.


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Kalindlara wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Y'know, I already have my ideas in order, UAE, but I'd honestly be pretty keen on something of the sort being submitted for Wayfinder's monster issue. You (or someone else) should consider writing in!
I've actually written something on that exact subject. ^_^

{whistles innocently} Mwah-ha-ha-ha!

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