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I say again, Brawler is not the solution the same way Unarmed Fighter is not what I mean with Martial Artist.
Re-flavoring is a funny thing because it is the most popular non-solution if we talk about systems. If you wanted to build a Samurai for example, why would you had ever needed that class from UC to begin with? Most classes that can get some armor, lawful alignment and swords can be reflavored into Samurai. Apply same procedure for Ninjas. Or Shamans. Or anything.
But flavor is useless without the rules. Brawler has zero rules that imply the kind of moves you would expect if you think about a crazy Jet Li fighting scene. Punch is a punch, but that is such lame reductionism.
Think of Street Fighter. Generally, all characters punch and kick, yet each and every one of the characters have their unique moves. Brawler is more Cody, Balrog, Zangief while Martial artist would be more Fei Long and Gen. Unchained Monk has the right idea with Style strikes, but like I said, is a mish-mash that tries to be too many ideas at the same time, failing to be satisfying.
Because Hunter is not something more than just Ranger with a pet and Slayer is more than just a combat-build rogue.
No, you are just hung up on the name.
A brawler can very easily play the martial artist. You can use his free feat grabbing to make him a very competent MMA fighter or martial artist by simply having a few first feat chains in different styles and switching them up as you need them.
Also, there is no better maneouver mmaster as he can grab the abilities as he needs them.
And if you really wanna get jiggy, get the VMC monk on your brawler. Because reasons.
Just because the name says brawler doesnt mean you have to be some street fighter.
I say again, Brawler is not the solution the same way Unarmed Fighter is not what I mean with Martial Artist.
Re-flavoring is a funny thing because it is the most popular non-solution if we talk about systems. If you wanted to build a Samurai for example, why would you had ever needed that class from UC to begin with? Most classes that can get some armor, lawful alignment and swords can be reflavored into Samurai. Apply same procedure for Ninjas. Or Shamans. Or anything.
But flavor is useless without the rules. Brawler has zero rules that imply the kind of moves you would expect if you think about a crazy Jet Li fighting scene. Punch is a punch, but that is such lame reductionism.
Think of Street Fighter. Generally, all characters punch and kick, yet each and every one of the characters have their unique moves. Brawler is more Cody, Balrog, Zangief while Martial artist would be more Fei Long and Gen. Unchained Monk has the right idea with Style strikes, but like I said, is a mish-mash that tries to be too many ideas at the same time, failing to be satisfying.
Because Hunter is not something more than just Ranger with a pet and Slayer is more than just a combat-build rogue.
No, you are just hung up on the name.
A brawler can very easily play the martial artist. You can use his free feat grabbing to make him a very competent MMA fighter or martial artist by simply having a few first feat chains in different styles and switching them up as you need them.
Also, there is no better maneouver mmaster as he can grab the abilities as he needs them.
And if you really wanna get jiggy, get the VMC monk on your brawler. Because reasons.
Just because the name says brawler doesnt mean you have to be some street fighter.
Brawlers can at least play as part of team Cobra Kai.
No, you are just hung up on the name.A brawler can very easily play the martial artist. You can use his free feat grabbing to make him a very competent MMA fighter or martial artist by simply having a few first feat chains in different styles and switching them up as you need them.
Also, there is no better maneouver mmaster as he can grab the abilities as he needs them.
And if you really wanna get jiggy, get the VMC monk on your brawler. Because reasons.
Just because the name says brawler doesnt mean you have to be some street fighter.
No, that is not what I even meant to say at all, but I realize what I failed to say.
Lot of eastern martial arts movies are not MMA. I am not looking for the Karate Kid or a wrestler here, I am looking for the spectacle of asian wuxia. You know those fighting scenes where actors are flying thanks to transparent wires? That stuff.
More elaborate and excessive style strikes rather than Brawler's feat flexibility. Especially considering that style feats are absolutely lame.
No, you are just hung up on the name.A brawler can very easily play the martial artist. You can use his free feat grabbing to make him a very competent MMA fighter or martial artist by simply having a few first feat chains in different styles and switching them up as you need them.
Also, there is no better maneouver mmaster as he can grab the abilities as he needs them.
And if you really wanna get jiggy, get the VMC monk on your brawler. Because reasons.
Just because the name says brawler doesnt mean you have to be some street fighter.
No, that is not what I even meant to say at all, but I realize what I failed to say.
Lot of eastern martial arts movies are not MMA. I am not looking for the Karate Kid or a wrestler here, I am looking for the spectacle of asian wuxia. You know those fighting scenes where actors are flying thanks to transparent wires? That stuff.
More elaborate and excessive style strikes rather than Brawler's feat flexibility. Especially considering that style feats are absolutely lame.
Interestingly enough, the Magus is actually well fitted for it with the Kensai archetype. The archetype makes them more weapon orientated and with spells like Bladed Dash you can pull off some cool stuff. And you can flavor your spells as wuxia stuff
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Well that you can only pull off with Tome Of Battle from 3.5... and that book has some interesting debate about it...
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And unless you are stuck on "it must not be a spell" you can always flavor the casting as all the fancy dancing that happens with Wuxia fighting. Utilize flight spells and things like true strike for cool flavor and blur as moving super fast. Hast is awesome and bladed dash has awesomr flavor
Vancian magic does not blend well with supernatural kung fu.
Vancian magic does not blend well with supernatural kung fu.
One Magus Archetype that i forgot the name of makes the Magus a spont caster which helps a little bit. Honestly if you want non vancian stuff then Dreamscarred Press Psionics books or maybe the new Occult Adventures books are all there really is.
Or Tome of Battle from 3.5 but that met mixed reviews.
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During the initial Pathfinder playtests, I advocated that the monk be redesigned along a ranger- or paladin-like chassis: full BAB, and spontaneous half-casting ("ki powers") to include stuff like feather fall (slow fall), expeditious retreat (fast movement), slay living (quivering palm), and so on. It got shot down, HARD, on the basis of "backwards compatibility," but there you have it.
For what it's worth Kirth, that's incredibly limiting on the sorts of things a Monk player wants to do.
Monks should have access to a certain pool of abilities they can take, which are either constant, at will, or can be used freely from a pool of energy. The general way the current monk is designed is actually pretty good, the problem is how underwelming the implementation is.
Yeah, having a list of selectable ki powers was a really good idea for how to make the monk work. The problem with it was that in the process the devs turned all the formerly always-on monk abilities into "Pay a ki point (or several) to get this for one minute/use this one time."
I agree, a Barbarian style approach was better than trying to shoehorn the Monk into 4th level casting.
The problem was that they weren't willing to make the Monk as supernatural as the Barbarian is.
For what it's worth Kirth, that's incredibly limiting on the sorts of things a Monk player wants to do.
Monks should have access to a certain pool of abilities they can take, which are either constant, at will, or can be used freely from a pool of energy. The general way the current monk is designed is actually pretty good, the problem is how underwelming the implementation is.
Yeah, having a list of selectable ki powers was a really good idea for how to make the monk work. The problem with it was that in the process the devs turned all the formerly always-on monk abilities into "Pay a ki point (or several) to get this for one minute/use this one time."
Even that could have worked if the pool was big enough to deal with the constant demand on KI points and it had a way to replenish/recover it.
If you grab ki leech with qinggong, it is not too bad.
That power needs 0 ki, so you can spam it constantly. Just wait and ki will come to you in the form of enemies (just break them open for the chewy center)
I do get the feeling that you are like a drug addict jonesing for his next fix though. Which is why the hungry ghost archetype (which has an earlier access ki leech mechanic- I suggested qinggong since almost all monks can use it) is associated with undead like vampires (which are also associated with drug addicts...but is slightly more apt comparison since it involves hurting and killing for their 'fix')
If you grab ki leech with qinggong, it is not too bad.
That power needs 0 ki, so you can spam it constantly. Just wait and ki will come to you in the form of enemies (just break them open for the chewy center)
I do get the feeling that you are like a drug addict jonesing for his next fix though. Which is why the hungry ghost archetype (which has an earlier access ki leech mechanic- I suggested qinggong since almost all monks can use it) is associated with undead like vampires (which are also associated with drug addicts...but is slightly more apt comparison since it involves hurting and killing for their 'fix')
I hate 'wasting' a ki ability on it. Wyroot Sansetsukon are the go-to solution for me. With the ability to flurry and get two handed 1.5 damage, it's a good option. It's downfall is that style strikes and things like pummeling style require unarmed attacks.
As a bonus, both should work at the same time as the Wyroot absorbing a point is different that the monk absorbing one.
If you grab ki leech with qinggong, it is not too bad.
That power needs 0 ki, so you can spam it constantly. Just wait and ki will come to you in the form of enemies (just break them open for the chewy center)
I do get the feeling that you are like a drug addict jonesing for his next fix though. Which is why the hungry ghost archetype (which has an earlier access ki leech mechanic- I suggested qinggong since almost all monks can use it) is associated with undead like vampires (which are also associated with drug addicts...but is slightly more apt comparison since it involves hurting and killing for their 'fix')
I hate 'wasting' a ki ability on it. Wyroot Sansetsukon are the go-to solution for me. With the ability to flurry and get two handed 1.5 damage, it's a good option. It's downfall is that style strikes and things like pummeling style require unarmed attacks.
As a bonus, both should work at the same time as the Wyroot absorbing a point is different that the monk absorbing one.
Still...remember how pummeling style has a crazy sweet crit mechanic (where any 'hit' that threatens a crit threatens a crit for the whole full attack's damage? And how that is confirmed with your highest BAB? Thereby giving your lesser BAB attacks an actual chance to confirm a crit?)
I remember that one of the biggest arguments for restricting pummeling style to unarmed strikes alone was that the mechanic was already bordering on near broken even when you were just dealing with a 20/x2.
Overall, the ability has an advantage over just the material alone since you have more options. Although combining the two does seem equally valid (and it means you can just forgo the amulet of mighty fists for a NA amulet)
lemeres: I totally understand ki leech is a good option, it just irks me as it seem like it should be a mechanic that's build in and something I shouldn't have to spend an ability on. It coming in at 10th doesn't help either.
Wyroot's advantage is that you could buy one as early as 1st level. Even if you're planning to go Ki leech, Wyroot allows you to recharge your pool from 4th until you pick it up 10th.
Also, Ki leech and hungry ghost abilities require 1 ki in your pool to use. If you end up with 0, Wyroot will allow you to get back up to one so they'll work again. :)
The kineticist from the upcoming Occult Adventures book... your welcome...You mean insulted. The kineticist is not a mana caster. It effectively casts from con. Not HP. Con. It's an ill conceived insult to both those who wanted a warlock and those who wanted a spell point system.
Well, you don't have to use burn.... Burns use is more like using metamagic than casting, spending something extra to get more than you normally would.
If you want a spell point system, just use psionics, ethermagic, or akasha.
The kineticist from the upcoming Occult Adventures book... your welcome...You mean insulted. The kineticist is not a mana caster. It effectively casts from con. Not HP. Con. It's an ill conceived insult to both those who wanted a warlock and those who wanted a spell point system.
Kineticist is for those who want to play all "Avatar: The Last Airbender" and such.
For a spell point system, Dreamscarred Press' Psionics books are your best bet.
Or you can utilize the rules in 3.5 Unearthed Arcana. Either one.
I think I get what Envall is trying to say with 3 separate monks. I always saw a martial artist type monk as a stubborn perfectionist, dedicated to one style of fighting. In that sense, Brawler is a no-go. Brawler prides itself on flexibility and adapting to any situation using any kind of ability it can get its hands on. A fighter is a martial template you can use to build whatever you want, and have enough spare to go to another specialization (THF? Power attack. What now? The world is your oyster). Hell, even twf just requires good dex and about 4-5 feats, that's a lot left over.
A martial artist wouldn't succumb to "needing another form of combat." It would stubbornly make its own style work. It harkens to that trope of, "My (Insert martial arts style here) is the best. I challenge this dojo!!" trope. Funnily enough, the Martial Artist archetype really captures this well. Someone who isn't monastic, but seeks to perfect his or her body and style, as opposed to their mind and spirit. I don't really see the unchained monk fitting this profile. It does a little, but the focuses are still spread too thin (Too many ki powers with too much ki needed). Style strikes are amazing tho. If Martial Artist were a class, I'd like to see unique styles for them (Like focusing on mobility, number of attacks, maneuvers, monstrous damage, etc...)
Conversely, the exact opposite of a martial artist would be amazing (The focus on mind and spirit that is) which is apparently something we will get with the kineticist (I should look that up sometime soon), which I adore. Perhaps not going full SSJ, but liken its powers to a barbarian's.
Sohei and Weapon adept do a good job of the monk that perfects weapons. Though I would like the to be more akin to Zen Archer. Achieving actually impossible feats with their chosen weapons.
All in all, I guess what I want is for the monk to be a parallel to a barbarian. But instead of rage and powers, you have ki and many innate abilities you can maintain constantly due to... well, being a monk. Zen and all that.
O0 don't see too many people who even know about Jademan anymore. Always wondered how some of those stories ended up after they stopped printing here.
The one that comes to mind is Golden Dragon - used Golden Armor defensive kung fu, and Bone Cracking Claw for offense. But when faced with his senior is Bone Cracking Claw, resorted to Judo! Tiger Wong used at least 3 kicking styles, too.
And Chek fai - Blazing Suns, Drunken Fist, Crane Style, Drunken Crane Style...:) Good memories. Loved those books.
==Aelryinth
Admittedly, the whole "One True Style" thing is kinda already existent with Style Feats. On one hand they're strong enough that it's almost required to pick one, but on the other hand you're so heavily penalized for using more than one that outside of specific builds (most of which have no intention of being a Monk for more than two levels) that you're going to be the master of just one style.
Poor Crane Style got shot out of the sky though...
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The class itself isn't a Sacred cow in itself, as there has been different iterations before the sucktacular 3.0/3.5 monk came into being.
To "Fix" the Monk completely, I would think it would brake from the current version completely. Unarmed attacks would be specific for a Monk, and the Damage would be fixed from first level. (perhaps a 1d10) Monk weapons could do more damage in a Monks hands (Perhaps a progression higher in the chart) and do specific maneuvers on hits (like Disarm, trip, or grabble) if the Monk is trained in such. Flurry would be Two Weapon Fighting with an additional +2 to offset penalties, with most monk weapons counting as light/double weapons.
Full BAB should be the norm. The reliance on three stats should be dealt with also.
The Alignment restriction should be non-Chaotic, not Lawful.
This could be done in PF Ver2, but that won't be for a long while yet.
To answer the original question:
Sacred? no, nothing is sacred.
Set? Yes. after the better part of a decade playing with the core rulebook characters, Paizo isn't going to rewrite ANY of the CRB classes just because a messageboard poster or three, steps up on a soap box. There simply is too much written material out there that uses the CRB as a keystone. This is also true for the almost as old Advanced Players Guide.
That was the whole point of coming out with Pathfinder UnChained!, so that players and DMs now have an alternate set of the characters that needed either the most help, or a massive swing with the nerfbat, a.k.a. the Summoner.
Well, unchained basically tried going against the written material, making the unchained monk incompatable with many archetypes. And that is one of the main sources of backlash against that specific entry.
That and the 'sacred cow' thing. Really, I could say that the inability to mesh with many archetypes is a better example of what sacred cows actually are- a taboo put in place so you do not mess other things up
Some believe that the 'sacred cow' thing came from the fact that cattle were important as agricultural tools since they plowed the fields. So eating the cow today would mean you starve tomorrow. But since a logical argument like that doesn't entire work when you are hungry...another moral explanation was added and a stigma was attached ('it might be your grandma reincarnated!')
A similar principle might be behind the concept of kosher meat (since ancient cooking practices often meant pork would go undercooked...which had unfortunate consequences). You would be surprised how many religious traditions come from good medical and agricultural advice.
So back to the monk- some feel that unchained slaughtered the sacred cow, which hurts your attempts to grow crops of sohei, tetoris, maneuver masters, senseis, zen archers, etc.
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The Unchained Monk is... really bizarre. They changed it enough to make it incompatible with all the strong and flavorful archetypes the Monk has gotten over the years, but not enough to give it any narrative power that it didn't already have (and made that narrative power more expensive to use). The UMonk is a better DPR machine but did little to help the Monk that had not already been done.
If anything, what the UMonk did was replace all the disparate android parts (archetypes) that we used to build a harder, better, faster, and stronger cow with the original fleshy bits, fed the cow some steroids, and called that good enough.
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The Unchained Monk is... really bizarre. They changed it enough to make it incompatible with all the strong and flavorful archetypes the Monk has gotten over the years, but not enough to give it any narrative power that it didn't already have (and made that narrative power more expensive to use). The UMonk is a better DPR machine but did little to help the Monk that had not already been done.
If anything, what the UMonk did was replace all the disparate android parts (archetypes) that we used to build a harder, better, faster, and stronger cow with the original fleshy bits, fed the cow some steroids, and called that good enough.
Because for all intents and purpsoes... it IS. It's a solid foundation to build on, and it most likely will be built.
The latest crunch book to come out after all the summoner's book makes specific references to UnChained! versions of the Summoner class.
So, what you're saying is that they will be milking the sacred cow for awhile?
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The Unchained Monk is... really bizarre. They changed it enough to make it incompatible with all the strong and flavorful archetypes the Monk has gotten over the years, but not enough to give it any narrative power that it didn't already have (and made that narrative power more expensive to use). The UMonk is a better DPR machine but did little to help the Monk that had not already been done.
If anything, what the UMonk did was replace all the disparate android parts (archetypes) that we used to build a harder, better, faster, and stronger cow with the original fleshy bits, fed the cow some steroids, and called that good enough.
Because for all intents and purpsoes... it IS. It's a solid foundation to build on, and it most likely will be built.
The latest crunch book to come out after all the summoner's book makes specific references to UnChained! versions of the Summoner class.
Still, it will take A LOT before you get back to where monks were. With the intense specialization of the many popular archetypes, they will have a lot of content to make up for before they get back to where they were. From the ability to disarm-dirty-trip in a round or to grapple ghosts to just competing with sohei (which already solved a lot of the DPR and round about build problems without the need for unchained) there will need to be a lot of incentives here.
Sidenote- I am sacred intolerant. Can I get some agnostic soy instead?
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Sacred Milk is completely broken. I'd say it's almost CHEESE!
Clearly sacred almond milk is the One True Sacred Metaphorical Beverage!
Infernal Monster>Protean Mountain Dew> sacred Soy Milk>Sacred Milk> Cranberry Juice
Sacred cow's a Hindu thing. British turned it into a saying because they found cows as holy animals such an odd thing. A lot of English words and sayings actually come from India. Like pajamas! :)
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Sacred cow's a Hindu thing. British turned it into a saying because they found cows as holy animals such an odd thing. A lot of English words and sayings actually come from India. Like pajamas! :)
Meh - English is a mish-mash language. Has been ever since the Saxons took over England - then moreso when the Normans did.
Like beef. It's a bastardiation of the French word for cow - so it was called beef when it was food (and on a Norman's table), but it still 'cow' when the saxon peasants were caring for them in the field. Same with pork/pig. But chicken was a peasant food - so it kept the name whether livestock or meat.
Yes, and we say things like "cease and desist" because one is Germanic and the other is Latinic so that the Normans could be sure everyone understood that they needed to stop regardless of which language they primarily spoke. English is super weird.
From what little I know, both cease and desist comes from latin, the first descends from "cessare" and the second from "desistere". They where both first adopted by french and after by the english.
From what little I know, both cease and desist comes from latin, the first descends from "cessare" and the second from "desistere". They where both first adopted by french and after by the english.
That's correct. I should actually have known that, I studied Latin... I might have something backwards. There was something about Latin, Anglo-French, and continental French that made things like that necessary that I can't quite remember. I think they called it "trilingualism" or something. At any rate, the Normans were a big reason why English is weird and can be a pain in the ass to learn. And why we have a bajillion weird little idioms. Also because British.
The boar is a noble animal, a fine thing to hunt, a dangerous and ferocious quarry that can be found on many ancient coat of arms.
Peasants raise pigs, and we eat pork.
All same animal. One of the charming anachronism that I always found reading Ed Greenwood in FR is that he ALWAYS called it 'boar', never pork.
Although there were plenty of pig farmers.
==Aelryinth