Familiar feats clarification

[Zrooper]

There appear to be feats intended especially for familiars (for example, Critical Conduit) but I don't see in their advancement tables that familiars ever gain a feat except for their standard one from the race. Is this intended only for Improved Familiars somehow?

(background: Hero Lab seems to be giving my Greensting Scorpion familiar a feat slot (in addition to its racial Weapon Finesse), and I'm having trouble explaining it to my DM...)

[Goznaz]

Some familiars have preset feats and some do not. Also there is a witch archetype that transfers feats to the familiar.

[Canthin]

Zrooper wrote:

There appear to be feats intended especially for familiars (for example, Critical Conduit) but I don't see in their advancement tables that familiars ever gain a feat except for their standard one from the race. Is this intended only for Improved Familiars somehow?

(background: Hero Lab seems to be giving my Greensting Scorpion familiar a feat slot (in addition to its racial Weapon Finesse), and I'm having trouble explaining it to my DM...)

I think the Greensting Scorpion thing is that mindless vermin don't normally get feats, but familiars aren't mindless, thus they would get 1 feat.

As for advancement, I don't think familiars gain feats normally as you level. Improved familiars may have more than 2 HD, however, which means they would be able to select multiple feats.

[Mark Hoover]

A normal familiar only gets it's one Racial feat; don't know what's happening with Hero Lab. There are witch, wizard and fighter archetypes as well as the Valet familiar archetype that give the familiar either more feats or the ability to access some or all of their controller's feats.

[lemeres]

Familiars do not actually increase in hit dice, but they simulate it by using their master's for things like the effects of spells (ie- color spray), and it uses its masters saves, skills, and BAB, plus 1/2 the HP. But despite these changes, the familiar still retains all the things it would get for being a creature with its hit dice...and it also opens up new options due to the new intelligence score it gained when it became a familiar.

So take he fox- he comes with skill focus (perception), which is gains through its skill slot as a normal 1 hd animal. You can also switch that skill focus out for critical conduit, or the other feats meant for familiars.

So for the main problem of the thread- mindless creatures do not ahve feats, but it stops being mindless when it becomes a familiar. So, as a 1 hd creature with an intelligence score, it is entitled to a feat it qualifies for.

I am not sure if this was originally intended by the designers, but it is a RAW process since the intelligence score is not fake like the copied hit dice. It also brings up questions- with that new intelligence score, does it gain skill points to spend on whatever?

Do other familiars with natural int scores get extra skill points when they move to 10 int? As animals, they get 2+int skill points per hd, so when they stop having a negative int modifier, they would qualify for more skill points.

[Byakko]

Familiars can swap their default feats out for the special familiar feats.

There's also a few archetypes which allow familiars to gain additional feats.

Other than that, you're not allowed to add feats or skills to a familiar. If the base stats for the familiar don't include a feat, then you have nothing to swap out for Critical Conduit - you're not allowed to give a previously mindless creature a feat, despite its new-found intelligence.

Simply put: you don't advance, change, or modify the base creature in any way when it becomes a familiar, except as specifically allowed or directed by the rules for familiars.

[QuidEst]

Also, familiars always use the better of Str and Dex for their attack, so it's a good idea to trade out Weapon Finesse on familiars that come with it.

[FallzQuick]

So say I picked a Harbinger Archon as my improved familiar. it has Dodge,and Improved Initiative for feats and the bonus feats for being a familiar aka Alertness, and improved evasion.

Which ones are legal to swap out and for what?

[Rathendar]

FallzQuick wrote:

So say I picked a Harbinger Archon as my improved familiar. it has Dodge,and Improved Initiative for feats and the bonus feats for being a familiar aka Alertness, and improved evasion.

Which ones are legal to swap out and for what?

The first 2 can be swapped out.

[Jeff Merola]

QuidEst wrote:

Also, familiars always use the better of Str and Dex for their attack, so it's a good idea to trade out Weapon Finesse on familiars that come with it.

Note that if you're in PFS, there's a PFS specific houserule that says if you swap out Weapon Finesse, you also lose that quality.

[Byakko]

Jeff Merola wrote:

QuidEst wrote:

Also, familiars always use the better of Str and Dex for their attack, so it's a good idea to trade out Weapon Finesse on familiars that come with it.

Note that if you're in PFS, there's a PFS specific houserule that says if you swap out Weapon Finesse, you also lose that quality.

Really? I have never heard of such a thing. Have a citation?

[Jeff Merola]

Here you go.

[Byakko]

Jeff Merola wrote:

Here you go.

Wow, that seems totally arbitrary and nonsensical.

So if a familiar doesn't start with Weapon Finesse, they can use Dex to hit...

but if they do start with Weapon Finesse, and swap it out, then they are worse off than the familiar who never had it in the first place?

How bizarre.

[Jeff Merola]

Yup. It's a ruling I don't agree with, but it's what is used in PFS, unless and until someone convinces Mike to change his ruling.

[FallzQuick]

Rathendar wrote:

FallzQuick wrote:

So say I picked a Harbinger Archon as my improved familiar. it has Dodge,and Improved Initiative for feats and the bonus feats for being a familiar aka Alertness, and improved evasion.

Which ones are legal to swap out and for what?

The first 2 can be swapped out.

What are the legal options?

[Protoman]

FallzQuick wrote:

Rathendar wrote:

FallzQuick wrote:

So say I picked a Harbinger Archon as my improved familiar. it has Dodge,and Improved Initiative for feats and the bonus feats for being a familiar aka Alertness, and improved evasion.

Which ones are legal to swap out and for what?

The first 2 can be swapped out.

What are the legal options?

The Animal Feats from the Animal Archive that are meant for familiars (says 'familiar' in prerequisites') that the familiar qualifies for, except for Familiar Spell.

[Cevah]

FallzQuick wrote:

So say I picked a Harbinger Archon as my improved familiar. it has Dodge,and Improved Initiative for feats and the bonus feats for being a familiar aka Alertness, and improved evasion.

Which ones are legal to swap out and for what?

The familiar never gains Alertness. When the familiar is near the master, the master gains it.

The familiar gains improved evasion, but as an Ex ability, not a feat.

/cevah

[graystone]

Cevah wrote:

FallzQuick wrote:

So say I picked a Harbinger Archon as my improved familiar. it has Dodge,and Improved Initiative for feats and the bonus feats for being a familiar aka Alertness, and improved evasion.

Which ones are legal to swap out and for what?

The familiar never gains Alertness. When the familiar is near the master, the master gains it.

The familiar gains improved evasion, but as an Ex ability, not a feat.

/cevah

Infiltrator: "Alertness: An infiltrator gains Alertness as a bonus feat, rather than providing it to its master."