GM just tried to have my Fighter "Fall"


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

151 to 160 of 160 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>

kestral287 wrote:

That's my view as well, bookrat. There was a discussion on it a few pages back-- but the existence of entities like Cayden and Iomedae, who gained their 'godhood' through the Starstone, could certainly be used to support the views of such a character. The same is true of the Empyreal Lords, who are god-like but really just the paragons of their kind.

I'm actually half-tempted to really run with the idea. The character would be a Sorcerer who grew up under Razimar's religion and figured it was a fraud somehow or another-- so now he assumes all of the gods are. He's particularly fixated on Cayden and Iomedae, who he thinks are a rare and advanced kind of lich, and wants to use the Starstone as his phylactery and become a lich himself.

The idea needs fleshing out more but I find it hilarious.

I am curious why he assumes lich and not immortal. I mean its not like any of the regular outsiders have a sell by date. Also being alive and immortal seems a lot better than a lich, which has a few obvious downsides.

Liberty's Edge

Berti Blackfoot wrote:
But they DON'T aid mortals, even according to their worldview. They only do so based on contract: IF you do this and that, THEN I may aid you. I don't think in the Pathfinder multiverse that gods require worshipers for their power or to grant spells, so they don't even have that as an excuse.

This is explicitly and completely untrue (okay, it's true that their power isn't based on number of worshipers per se...the rest is untrue, though). The Gods can and do interfere in the world of mortals both directly and indirectly, as is gone into in their deity articles, and often through people who are not worshipers per se, but reflect their ideals. Cayden Cailean is known to give people of good will bursts of courage to enable them to act in emergencies, just as one random example.

The Gods have to be careful and selective about how and when they do this, for reasons both obvious (Evil Gods can do it too) and subtle (the people at Paizo have explicitly noted that deities are under a lot of restrictions mortals can't quite fathom the details of)...but the lack of lots of obvious miracles not channeled through Clerics or minions is not because Gods are universally prejudiced against non-followers of theirs.

Berti Blackfoot wrote:
In short, no matter what morality a god says they have, they are all, in the end, selfish jerks who only help people who help the god first, or through those people.

Nope. Again, Gods can't just throw miracles out everywhere willy nilly, there are rules about how and when to do that. The restrictions they are under, not selfishness, are what prevent such things. Some Gods certainly are selfish, but not the Good ones as a rule.

And even if they do favor their own worshipers a bit...they're finite beings. Do you help people in need in Africa or China as much as you help your own family and friends? Or even as much as people who live in your city? Most people don't, because they have a limited amount of effort, money, and time to spend helping, and start with people they known and care about already. The Gods are no different. They have more of all those things to spend helping people, but not unlimited amounts. Starting with their own worshipers seems a reasonable course of action (especially since they both trust those worshipers and know they'll use the power wisely...and they encourage them to use it to help non-worshipers).

Berti Blackfoot wrote:
So most good people will look at that and say "this guy is not very good, so why ally with him, and even if I ally temporarily I cannot worship such a selfish being"

Again, not actually selfish. Limited. There's a difference.

Berti Blackfoot wrote:
Even Pharasma routes people for eternal punishment for a few years of not being good. That is pretty harsh relative to what they did when alive. Even though Pharasma would say "hey, I'm just keeping balance, not punishing anyone"

The Neutral Gods are, in fact, often unjustifiably terrible to people under many circumstances. Hence being Neutral. The Good Gods are not.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
David Neilson wrote:
kestral287 wrote:

That's my view as well, bookrat. There was a discussion on it a few pages back-- but the existence of entities like Cayden and Iomedae, who gained their 'godhood' through the Starstone, could certainly be used to support the views of such a character. The same is true of the Empyreal Lords, who are god-like but really just the paragons of their kind.

I'm actually half-tempted to really run with the idea. The character would be a Sorcerer who grew up under Razimar's religion and figured it was a fraud somehow or another-- so now he assumes all of the gods are. He's particularly fixated on Cayden and Iomedae, who he thinks are a rare and advanced kind of lich, and wants to use the Starstone as his phylactery and become a lich himself.

The idea needs fleshing out more but I find it hilarious.

I am curious why he assumes lich and not immortal. I mean its not like any of the regular outsiders have a sell by date. Also being alive and immortal seems a lot better than a lich, which has a few obvious downsides.

Well, couple reasons.

The meta-reasons:
-Liches popped into my head first.
-The idea of trying to use the Starstone as a phylactery is hilarious to me.

The character reasons:
-Liches are evil. He has a very low opinion of deities, so automatically assuming they're evil is a good start.
-Liches are understandable. They're a framework he can conceptualize, understand, and eventually even target. "Immortal" is much more vague. Part of the argument against the deities being true gods requires putting them in terms that can be understood, and liches are among the best way to do that.
-Liches are attainable. He knows, at least in the broad strokes, how a mortal can become a lich. "Become immortal" without becoming undead in some way is tricky at best.
-Liches are killable. As a subset of his anti-divine crusade, I could see him wanting to actually go out and kill a deity or two. That's not a state of mind one can really enter if operating under the assumption of "this guy is truly immortal". To combine it with the above: Outsiders can be killed, but there's no real way for a human to become an Outsider. Undead can be also killed, but it isn't that hard for a human to become an undead. A true immortal, as he'd conceptualize the term, cannot be killed at all, and that's not something attainable by him-- and if he can't attain it, he doesn't think anyone can. His assumption is that Cayden and Iomedae stumbled across a 'better' Lich ritual, one somehow empowered by the Starstone.


I've always been a fan of playing at least somewhat religious characters, regardless of their class. A shield-bearing Knight who worships Torm and protects the party because they're the best hope of saving innocent lives and punishing the unjust, a power hungry Sorcerer who paid lip service to Nethys just because he was the God of Magic and as a result embodied the thing the Sorcerer favoured most, etc.

My favourite though was a Swashbuckler pirate who actually took the time out to pray to five different Gods at a time- Besmara for obvious reasons, Cayden Cailean for alcohol, freedom and bravery, Calistria for wenches and trickery, Milani for uprisings (generally against port authorities or law enforcement), and Desna for her domains of Luck and Travelling which as a pirate he needed plenty of help with. He'd go through the motions of praising each one individually, occasionally use their name in vain in times of stress depending on the situation, that sort of thing. It didn't add any functionality stat-wise and he most definitely wasn't a divine spellcaster, but the GM made an effort to pay me back for the roleplay with the occasional small buff in times of need with a comment about how I feel as though someone's watching out for me.

To me, that's what the Gods have always been- Just a source of more RP and a fleshing out of character. You expect the Cleric and Paladin to praise a God, but when this smarmy pirate suddenly pulls out a silver necklace of a butterfly and utters a prayer before stabbing at a scary monster, I just feel like it gives a bit more life to a world where the Gods really do play a part in everyday life.


kestral287 wrote:

Well, couple reasons.

The meta-reasons:
-Liches popped into my head first.
-The idea of trying to use the Starstone as a phylactery is hilarious to me.

The character reasons:
-Liches are evil. He has a very low opinion of deities, so automatically assuming they're evil is a good start.
-Liches are understandable. They're a framework he can conceptualize, understand, and eventually even target. "Immortal" is much more vague. Part of the argument against the deities being true gods requires putting them in terms that can be understood, and liches are among the best way to do that.
-Liches are attainable. He knows, at least in the broad strokes, how a mortal can become a lich. "Become immortal" without becoming undead in some way is tricky at best.
-Liches are killable. As a subset of his anti-divine crusade, I could see him wanting to actually go out and kill a deity or two. That's not a state of mind one can really...

Still, they might not be liches as he understands them (or he thinks as such).

Being fleshy and working with positive energy and all.

That doesn't mean this isn't a 'soul in a jar' situation where the gods are entities that put their true essence into a separate plane

Although Arazni (a demigod) did get killed and turned into an actual lich.

Honestly, I think you are better off working off of a framework of tieflings, half fiends, and full demons for this.

An outsider is a creature made, in part, from material from another plane. Tieflings are mortals which are tainted by the influence of the evil planes. They still have mortal frailty, but they have just a little bit more that can give them an edge at times. Going back to the dead demigod mentioned above, perhaps the gods are entities that are infused with the essence of some 'divine' realm? And the effects of this 'divine' plane are similar to other planes, but simply have a larger scale of effect.

I bring up half fiends and demons into this because they provide another framework- they are attainable goals as a living mortal. There are rituals, in the text, to become a half fiend or full fiend. Maybe Your character could approach divinity with such a mindset?

Of course, the process of becoming a demon involves having a demon lord patron showing you favor. In comparison, the gods are jealous and do not really wish to share their gifts (even the star stone could be seen as merely a way to relieve pressure of mortals seeking divinity- it is attainable, but mortals may think 'I could never pass the test on my own', instead of banding together armies for the quest for divinity). So you might have to take more...forceful methods (ie- Lamashtu)


Campor wrote:
My favourite though was a Swashbuckler pirate who actually took the time out to pray to five different Gods at a time- Besmara for obvious reasons, Cayden Cailean for alcohol, freedom and bravery, Calistria for wenches and trickery, Milani for uprisings (generally against port authorities or law enforcement), and Desna for her domains of Luck and Travelling which as a pirate he needed plenty of help with.

Honestly it throws me that the average Golarionian (... okay seriously, what's the word for that?) doesn't do this. I admit that my interest in historical mythologies ties more to the gods and myths themselves than the actual mechanics of their worship, but my understanding was that this was more or less the de facto for polytheistic societies. You prayed to whichever deity your region/city favored most of the time, but when somebody died you prayed to Hades, when you were on a boat you prayed to Poseidon, and when you felt like you needed some wisdom you prayed to Athena no matter who your 'patron' was.

lemeres wrote:
kestral287 wrote:

Well, couple reasons.

The meta-reasons:
-Liches popped into my head first.
-The idea of trying to use the Starstone as a phylactery is hilarious to me.

The character reasons:
-Liches are evil. He has a very low opinion of deities, so automatically assuming they're evil is a good start.
-Liches are understandable. They're a framework he can conceptualize, understand, and eventually even target. "Immortal" is much more vague. Part of the argument against the deities being true gods requires putting them in terms that can be understood, and liches are among the best way to do that.
-Liches are attainable. He knows, at least in the broad strokes, how a mortal can become a lich. "Become immortal" without becoming undead in some way is tricky at best.
-Liches are killable. As a subset of his anti-divine crusade, I could see him wanting to actually go out and kill a deity or two. That's not a state of mind one can really...

Still, they might not be liches as he understands them (or he thinks as such).

Being fleshy and working with positive energy and all.

That doesn't mean this isn't a 'soul in a jar' situation where the gods are entities that put their true essence into a separate plane

Although Arazni (a demigod) did get killed and turned into an actual lich.

Honestly, I think you are better off working off of a framework of tieflings, half fiends, and full demons for this.

An outsider is a creature made, in part, from material from another plane. Tieflings are mortals which are tainted by the influence of the evil planes. They still have mortal frailty, but they have just a little bit more that can give them an edge at times. Going back to the dead demigod mentioned above, perhaps the gods are entities that are infused with the essence of some 'divine' realm? And the effects of this 'divine' plane are similar to other planes, but simply have a larger scale of effect.

I bring up half fiends and demons into this because they provide another framework- they are attainable goals as a living mortal. There are rituals, in the text, to become a half fiend or full fiend. Maybe Your character could approach divinity with such a mindset?

Of course, the process of becoming a demon involves having a demon lord patron showing you favor. In comparison, the gods are jealous and do not really wish to share their gifts (even the star stone could be seen as merely a way to relieve pressure of mortals seeking divinity- it is attainable, but mortals may think 'I could never pass the test on my own', instead of banding together armies for the quest for divinity). So you might have to take more...forceful methods (ie- Lamashtu)

Hrm. I'd forgotten about that set of rituals. Well, to go through things...

Fleshy is something any lich can pull off. Nondetection + Mind Blank + Alter Self, you can look plenty fleshy. As to positive energy... we don't know if they're healed or harmed by it. I think he'd be quick to point out that Asmodeus can grant positive energy (LN cleric choosing to channel positive; I believe that's legal but Clerics are not my forte) and Iomedae can grant negative (the inverse).

But yes, he would acknowledge that they're leagues above a normal lich-- which to him just means that they found a way to boost the ritual (via Starstone, he believes), not that they're not liches.

Now, the Fiend Route.

You're right on the immediate issue: it requires a patron. If I could get that negotiated with the DM, I could see it becoming an option, but with the patron I'm not seeing it as a plausible option.

What's really interesting is that while an Undead can't become a Half-Fiend, I actually see nothing stopping a fiend from becoming a lich. Unless there's something preventing them from making the phylactery, it should in theory be plausible to have a Fiendish Lich, and that would be a very interesting goal.

Sadly, the mechanics don't line up for that even if the patron thing could be bypassed-- asking for one awesome template is hard enough; asking for two is... questionable at best.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
kestral287 wrote:
I think he'd be quick to point out that Asmodeus can grant positive energy (LN cleric choosing to channel positive; I believe that's legal but Clerics are not my forte) and Iomedae can grant negative (the inverse).
Core Rulebook wrote:
A good cleric (or one who worships a good deity) channels positive energy and can choose to deal damage to undead creatures or to heal living creatures. An evil cleric (or one who worships an evil deity) channels negative energy and can choose to deal damage to living creatures or to heal undead creatures. A neutral cleric who worships a neutral deity (or one who is not devoted to a particular deity) must choose whether she channels positive or negative energy. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed.

So a lawful neutral cleric who worships Asmodeus can still only channel negative energy, and a lawful neutral cleric who worships Iomedae can still only channel positive energy; it would have to be a lawful neutral cleric worships a lawful neutral or neutral deity to pick.


Aah. I knew there was something about Neutral Clerics picking either but like I said, Clerics aren't my forte.

Ah well. He'd probably just shrug and say that there are already spells that let a living being be healed by negative energy, who's to say that there isn't magic that lets a dead being be healed by positive energy? It should be an easy spell to devise (if he was a Wizard he'd even go ahead and research it out of spite. Unfortunately, Sorcerer because I dislike Wizards).

Scarab Sages

Deadmanwalking,
Can you tell us where you found those instances of gods helping people without anything to gain? I haven't read of any in the books or stories so far.

I do have inner sea gods, but haven't read through them all.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I guess the biggest instances of gods helping people without anything to gain that I can think of would be...

First, Acavna and Amaznen sacrificing their lives to help mitigate the effects of the Starstone, since as deities, they could have certainly retreated to the Outer Planes, and even if Golarion had been destroyed, we know there are many other planets they could have turned their attention to, much as the ancient Osirion pantheon turned their attention to Earth. They certainly gained nothing from their actions, I'd say.

Secondly, Iomedae granting spells to worshipers who remained dedicated to Aroden after he passed away, refusing to convert to her worship. She certainly didn't gain any benefit by doing so.

Of course, there might be others I'm not thinking of.

151 to 160 of 160 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / GM just tried to have my Fighter "Fall" All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in General Discussion