At first read, I was equally inflamed as the OP. A rogue that out-tracks a ranger! Pff! Proposterous. However, as I read on and saw the solutions that developed (Great solutions, I will add!), I felt increasingly like a satellite-guided tactical missile was being designed to kill a mosquito.
Yes, the Unchained rogue could potentially out-track a ranger, but that's a rare corner case. In a home game party, the group would be probably say, "Dude. Really? That's Bill's thing." And most people that anyone wants to game with would reply, "Yeah, you're right. I'll choose something else." Or the party might not even have a ranger and they'll be thrilled to have the tracking. In a PFS game, the ranger may have his toes stepped on a bit for a scenario, but you likely won't play with that same rogue again. (Unless you've got a small PFS community, then...ya got me.)
Anyway, you're talking about an expansive house rule that will affect every PC ever and it gets even stickier when archetypes and things come in. It just seems like such a small irritation for such an invasive house rule. But hey, if you're a compulsive house ruler and this floats your boat, kudos. I think it's a good house rule.
Ok here's a thought, every class is gaining skill unlocks at no expense right? The heck is the unchained rogue getting?
Every other class is getting only one unlock at level 5 from a limited list. The rogue gets an unlock at 5, 10, 15, and 20 from any skill they want and can spend a feat or an advanced talent to get even more.
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How about a free feat every other level? Why should that be limited to fighters?
Or the favored enemy ability? Why should that be limited to ranger?
Channeling energy to heal? Surely that should not be limited to the holy roller types?
The issue with expanding the skill unlock is you are taking a class specific ability and applying it to every other class without any serious rebalancing of the class (which is already one of the weaker classes) you are effectively hobbling by removing an ability that can otherwise only be emulated in other classes by spending a feat.
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Why does it need to be free? Just because the rogue gets a few for free? Why must we give away something the rogue just got to literally everyone else? Not to mention that in a non pfs game they can still get it via taking a feat. Not only does it help the rogue out by at the very least he gets a few for free and can get more unlocks with less effort, but you also won't be shoving one set in stone skill for that class to unlock in the players face.
If you aren't a rogue and want an unlock spend a feat, super simple.
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Why does it need to be free?Because it never should have cost anything. It's kind of like Intimidating Prowess: that a big strong guy with no personality has to spend a feat to be as intimidating as a minstrel is completely backwards. That anyone has to spend feats to make skills relevant next to spells is just holding up the caster-martial disparity in the name of niche protection. That's not how you fix a game. You can't even fix the rogue that way because you're not fixing the non-caster baseline you're measuring him against.
Not following you on this one. If you give this for free to everyone how exactly does that do anything to address the caster/martial disparity ... casters would be getting this for free as well by what what the OP outlined and what is being discussed. Seems like you are actually reinforcing the disparity in that case ...
what it does do is renerf the rogue by removing an otherwise unique-unless-you-pay-for-it ability from the class...
Torger: I don't think I'm being inconsistent.
For most class and skill combinations just putting loads of ranks into a skill you like is more than enough to get really good with the skill. A Ranger with +13 in Sense Motive will be pretty damn good at figuring out someone's motivations without the mind reading tricks of the unlock and that's good enough.
For some class and skill combinations though it doesn't make sense that the rogue can pull of tricks with the skill that another class has no access to. (Unlocked Survival and Ranger for example).
I guess the needle I'm threading is:
* Unlocked skills are strictly better than locked skills. So the classes that should be the best at that skill need to have it unlocked for free in a similar manner to Rogue's edge.
* Unlocked skills aren't necessary to still being good with the skill. So classes that aren't thematically supposed to be the best of the best with the skill can still be really very good with the standard method of investing ranks into it (just not the 'best'). a +23 bonus or whatever in any skill is really fantastic for the challenges the game throws at you.
* The Rogue should get the most of the unlocked skills system from unchained. Having more unlocks and more ways to get even more unlocks does a pretty good job of this. Even if the other four members of the group have different skills. Rogue still has Disable Device all to itself. (In fact I now think Archaeologist Bards should get Kn:Dungeoneering as their skill instead of Disable Device) Plus in my games I've always found that having multiple people good with the same skills is a life saver since a bad roll from the one who's supposed to be the specialist can be pulled out of the fire by the other person who's overlapping.
No one is arguing that a high skill without having it unlocked is suddenly bad. It's still quite good. We all know that.
But you said it yourself
Unlocked skills are strictly better than locked skills.
To my design sense it was a good thing that if a character of any class got it into his head that he wanted to be the best in the world at whatever skill he chose he could do it. It wasn't always a good decision to do it, but it could be done.
Under the proposed rule that would no longer be the case and I'd be sad to see it go. The fact that any character can still be good at a skill is no consolation at all when the idea you had in your head was to be the best at it.
I get that you're offering classes a way to still be the best at the skill that you feel their class exemplifies I just think that your opinion regarding what they should be good at locks out a lot of cool character customization ideas. I would find it frustratingly limiting because if I want a fighter who is the absolute best blacksmith in the world I feel that should be possible.
I agree that overlapping skills in a party can be a good thing. No argument there.
I feel like neither of us is changing the others mind at this point, I believe I understand where you're coming from and what you're trying to do. Some of it I like, I just don't agree with the level of limitation you're imposing. I feel I've explained my position to the best of my ability but if there's anything I can clarify don't hesitate to ask. It's been a pleasure debating even if we'll are unlikely to agree on the subject ^_^
- Torger
Because the martials only have skills while for the casters the skills are redundant.Not following you on this one. If you give this for free to everyone how exactly does that do anything to address the caster/martial disparity ... casters would be getting this for free as well by what what the OP outlined and what is being discussed. Seems like you are actually reinforcing the disparity in that case ...Why does it need to be free?Because it never should have cost anything. It's kind of like Intimidating Prowess: that a big strong guy with no personality has to spend a feat to be as intimidating as a minstrel is completely backwards. That anyone has to spend feats to make skills relevant next to spells is just holding up the caster-martial disparity in the name of niche protection. That's not how you fix a game. You can't even fix the rogue that way because you're not fixing the non-caster baseline you're measuring him against.
like spellcraft fly and knowledge?
I just don't see what the big deal would be with just taking the feat. If you want your character to be the best in the world at one thing other things will suffer, in this case your dropping a feat for it. The rogue isn't suffering for they're unlocks?, pair them up in a fight with basically someone from any class and see if they gave up anything. I just feel it's a lot of work to fix a non existent problem. I mean shoot I'd like my rogue to not have to pay a feat to be proficient with a martial weapon like your ranger you mentioned but I would have to. You want a skill unlock even though you aren't a rogue? Pay for it like I would have to pay even attempt to emulate another class's feature.
Either way it's your game and I've given my two sense. Hope you find something that works for you and your players. :)
Personally, I'd allow folks to nab them via spending a skill point- Have them select an aligned skill at level one, at level 5, they can use a skill point to gain a skill unlock, and another skill point to further it, ect.
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Possibly the voice of dissent here, but... I don't really see the problem?
If neither the rogue or the ranger put ranks in Survival, the ranger wins.
If the rogue puts ranks in survival but the ranger doesn't, the rogue wins.
If the rogue and ranger both put ranks in survival, the ranger wins.
If the rogue and ranger both put ranks in survival but the rogue also uses his Rogue's edge in Survival, the rogue will have a lower survival modifier but he's able to do some things with the skill that the ranger can't.
If the rogue and ranger both put ranks in survival, the rogue puts his Rogue's Edge in survival and the ranger picks up Signature Skill (Survival), the ranger wins.
The rogue is only ahead of the ranger when he's investing more resources in the skill - Rogue's Edge is a class feature, and putting the Edge in survival means he can't put it anywhere else. Allowing other classes to take Signature Skill gives them equal opportunity to keep up and outperform the rogue at their chosen area of expertise.
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The rogue is only ahead of the ranger when he's investing more resources in the skill - Rogue's Edge is a class feature, and putting the Edge in survival means he can't put it anywhere else. Allowing other classes to take Signature Skill gives them equal opportunity to keep up and outperform the rogue at their chosen area of expertise.
This is my problem at times with pathfinder and the way Video games (ie. WoW has gone) They are trying to make every class do everything so people don't have to play different classes. Why should other classes get the Signature skill feat?
Why make it a feat at all? I feel that it is a feat because to many people would whine that the Rogue is now over powered. Let them be good at something cool like that, if you don't want your range to be left behind invest in survival and they will at least be able to keep up... sort of. Let each class shine independently not all the classes be a dull hum.
(not that all classes are a dull hum, some do shine pretty brightly)
It's a feat because it's an optional system. It doesn't even need to have a feat.
And each class is just an abstract set of skills for your character. Why do they have to shine "independently"?
Well, specific skills really ARE associated with specific classes.
Heal and Know: religion really is associated with clerics.
Survival and animal handling with Rangers.
Nature Knowledge with druids.
All kinds of knowledge skills with wizards.
Appraise, Stealth, Acrobatics, Disable Device/Open Locks, Sleight of Hand, Escape Artist, Disguise, UMD and Bluff with Rogues.
Perform and Diplomacy with Bards.
Smithing with fighter-types.
Sense Motive with Monks.
So giving out a skill unlock for an iconic skill for a class isn't out of line. You just have to NOT give out the unlock for iconic skills of other classes...and the Rogue naturally gets the most of them.
==Aelryinth
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Why make it a feat at all?
This question, to me, reveals the essential disconnect.
"Unlocks" seems a patch for the oversight that the skill system fails to reward those who invest in ranks over raw bonus. If "Unlocks" happened automatically, the class with the most actual ranks (ie. not just "Versatility") in class skills would benefit most from the system.
2cp
I disagree with a lot of those. There are very few explicitly associated with a class as a whole. Knowledge nature (Druids), survival (Ranger), Knowledge Religion (Clerics), Perform (Bards), DD and Stealth (Rogue), and probably some I'm missing.
And even then, most of these are highly mutable. You can be a cleric of Hastur that might know more about nobility than religion. It's all abstract. If a rogue wants to be all brawn and eschew stealth, he most certainly can.
I'm not saying you can't make examples outside. But Iconic is Iconic for a reason. There's other fighters then TWF Valeros, but he's still the iconic fighter.
Likewise, sure, a cleric's Domains may strongly associate him with specific skills. But the Iconic user of the Heal skill in a party is associated with the Cleric.
You're coming at it from the other end, which is 'This class uses what skill? Oh, I can CHANGE THAT at a whim!"
I'm coming from it with "This skill is most commonly associated with what class?" Ergo, Iconic Skill/CLass relationship.
I'd have no problem with a Domain waiving the iconic skill unlock for something more suitable, like Trickery getting the Unlock for Bluff instead. But it would have to be similar worth for balance.
==Aelryinth
Yeah, its always been associated with the Church.
even today, there are hospitals staffed by religious orders. Because healing is, at its fundamental level, a profession of low compensation. The only parts of the healing profession that make money are the elective parts, where you can charge what the market will bear.
So, when the heals run out, the temples are still the center of healing.
Just look at curse of the crimson throne. THe major organizers against the plague are the temples. The force spreading the plague? Dark priests. Heal has always been associated with the clerics and organized religion in this game, reflecting the real world.
==Aelryinth
WildeBob:
I get where you're coming from. The reason for the complexity in the idea is just coming up with a skill or a group of skills for each class/archetype. The simple solution is to just add this feature to everybody other than the unchained rogue who has the much stronger Rogue's Edge class feature.
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Skill Edge
At 5th level, your character has mastered a single class skill beyond that skill's normal boundaries, gaining results that others can only dream about. She gains the skill unlock powers for that skill as appropriate for her number of ranks in that skill.
Once picked the skill cannot be changed and Disable Device is not eligible even if it is a class skill.
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The advantage to this is that it's simple and general for every non rogue class and you don't need to decide which skill or skills are iconic for which class. That work has already been done by the designers when they came up with the class skills for each class (and modified it for their archetypes and in other ways as well such as Oracle Mysteries). Plus it keeps Disable Device unique to the Rogue.
Now you still have the issue that a ranger might pick Climb or something for their Edge while the party Rogue will pick Survival, but at least here it's the Ranger's own choice (and really Ranger? Climb? lol).
The downside is that Skill Edge is far more versatile than restricting it to a small list or a single defined skill (which treads on the Rogue's schtick more) AND you don't get to have fun with figuring out which class can get what skills.
Zylphryx:
I think by restricting it to only one possible skill unlock and also restricting what skill can even be picked makes it a much weaker version of the Rogue's Edge class feature. This idea just lets everyone else (even feat starved classes) get to play a bit with the unlocked skills in a very constrained way. Completely understand if you would want to make skill unlocks exclusive to rogues instead as that's one of the basic options given in the Unchained book.
Torger:
The pay a feat option for any skill you want does fit freer form character customization for the game better than the thematic no feat but a restricted free choice at level 5 idea. Good to understand your point of view and I wouldn't mind playing in a game with the feat option at all.
Generally:
This feature is really getting through to the same idea that class skills are already handling in the game. Some classes are better at some skills because some designer at some point sat down and decided that "Rangers should be inherently good at Swimming while Witches shouldn't and so get a base +3 if they put in the skill point while Witches don't". You can still have a Ranger that doesn't put any points into Swim and doesn't take advantage of that while a Witch that really puts in the points gets really good at doing laps down at the Y but hey that's their choice.
It's just a step further to stay: Each class is best at one thing (or has the potential to be the best in a small list of things as Aelryinth is suggesting).Skill unlocks through a Level 5 class feature like Rogue's Edge allow us to define that in a very fun way. Just like class skills, characters are free to ignore their unlock by not putting the points in.
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I am of the opinion that most of the skill unlocks should be universally available, to make skills more relevant particularly at high levels and when compared to spells. In fact my group already uses some of the "unlocks" (such as using Linguistics to decipher unfamiliar speech) and I was working on adding more (like bluff providing resistance to mind reading) as homebrew.
I understand the rogue did need a skill boost, however. I'd suggest one or more of the following:
1) Increase rogues' skill points to 10/level. Extra skill points are more valuable when skills in general have been buffed, and with 10/level the rogue gets a more distinct advantage compared to other skill classes like the bard, investigator, or slayer (at 6/level).
2) Change rogues' edge such that the selected skill grants skill unlocks based on class level rather than skill ranks. While some unlocks depend on having a very high skill modifier (like Escape Artist vs paralysis), many don't and would still be useful to a character who has only dabbled in that skill. For example, many such as perception reduce penalties associated with a skill. These would be very useful even for a character with half ranks in the skill - perhaps even more useful as a character who has maxed out a skill is less likely to be phased by the penalty. Similarly, the swim and climb unlocks let you bypass a check, which is most helpful for characters with fewer ranks. Finally, there are some unlocks which don't depend on your modifier at all, like acrobatics' ability to stand from prone without provoking.
3) Change rogues' edge such that they gain a bonus equal to 1/2 level on the selected skill, replicating things like the ranger's track, inquisitor's stern gaze, or bardic knowledge, but with a skill of their choice.