Opinions wanted: Skull & Shackles VS Wrath of the Righteous


Pathfinder Adventure Card Game General Discussion


I'm looking to get started with PACG. I've been having trouble deciding between SnS and WotR. I've done plenty of research in the game in general, and in SnS and WotR. I've been watching Stephan's great SnS playthrough on YouTube, I've been following the WotR first impression thread, I've studied all blog posts regarding both SnS and WotR in detail and have religiously watched a depressingly brief unboxing video of WotR in 0.25 speed at least 5 times.

Despite all this I still have trouble deciding, so I humbly request anyone with an opinion to throw it at me with full force. Hopefully I'll have a clearer idea on how to proceed after I regain consciousness.

***Theme***
Of the two themes, SnS attracts me more. SnS seems to go for Fun, while WotR seems to go for Awesome. I care more for having fun than being awesome.

I sort of hoped WotR would be Fun AND Awesome, with dimension hopping through crazy worlds, fighting weird creatures (I'm not familiar with the Pathfinder universe), but instead there's Icky People With Insect Legs in The Depressing Wasteland(TM). Give me eel people and three-headed sharks any day!

Is this impression sort of accurate so far?

***Characters***
The WotR characters seem much cooler to me (and as an added bonus they suffer less from wardrobe malfunctions than our SnS friends). I can't really pinpoint why, but they seem more unique and interesting in looks, personality and mechanics. And I like the idea of cohorts (though I guess the sea turtle allies from SnS make up for them).

But since this is all rather vague, and I don't expect to gain much new insight here, let's move on to the main counterbalance to my SnS theme preference:

***Difficulty***
Hubris comes before the fall, but I am confident to say that we are co-op game veterans. We own about 25 co-op games, which we play regularly. And even the harder ones we usually win (think Ghost Stories on the highest difficulty). We enjoy planning things out and do well at managing information, resources and chance.

The general opinion so far seems to be that the difficulty of the PACG adventure paths is WotR>SnS>RotR.

From what I've seen so far, SnS isn't actually that hard. In Stephan's playthrough, he makes quite some dubious tactical choices (understandable! He's on his own and narrating at the same time), he keeps rolling 1s, and he keeps forgetting to swash his buckles in order to get rid of said 1s, yet he still seems to do quite well.

Does the difficulty of SnS ramp up later on, or is the sailing generally this smooth? And if so, is there an elegant and interesting way to boost the difficulty a bit, or is it really intrinsic to the game?

From what I read about WotR, it's pretty hard, but the opinions seem to be divided on whether it's unfairly hard, or just needs more careful management of information and resources than previous PACG adventure paths. Has anyone played through enough of WotR to give a more nuanced opinion on this yet?

The idea of a more challenging game attracts me, despite preferring the SnS setting. However, the nature of the challenge does matter. Is it just Stupid High Numbers hard, or is it Play More Carefully hard?

***Scenario Variety***
SnS already seems to do quite well with offering non-standard scenarios. How does WotR compare to that (so far, obviously)? Is it similar, or have they taken it even further?

Phew! So, tl,dr; Is my view of SnS=Fun and WotR=Awesome accurate, how do the difficulties of SnS and WotR compare, both quantitatively and qualitatively, and how does the scenario variety of WotR compare to SnS so far?


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Theme: Both S&S and WotR are based on established RPG adventure paths (available for purchase here on paizo.com), if you don't mind spoilers you can look at the product descriptions for the RPG adventures to see roughly what the storyline is for each one. That may help you make a decision on which storyline you like more, if that is your kind of thing.

Characters: No comments here, as this is purely personal preference. Do note that you can port characters from other sets and class decks into a particular game, so you could play S&S with a WotR character. However, each character from an AP is best suited for that AP, and the class deck characters are more generic "jack of all trades" types rather than specialized for the unique challenges of any individual AP.

Difficulty: WotR is still new, so I cannot comment on how the difficulty would ramp up or compare to S&S. I expect the checks to be higher due to the d20 and mythic path/charges mechanics, but also balanced out by those same mechanics. S&S does ramp up in difficulty far more than RotR does as you go onwards, decks 5 and 6 are very brutal.

Scenario Variety: See "Theme" above; the scenarios are straight out of the RPG storyline. When the story throws unique things at the players is when the scenarios get to break out of the norm. When it doesn't, then they don't. Since WotR doesn't have all the adventure decks out, I really cannot comment on how the variety compares to S&S but I'm pretty sure you'll see a nice mix of scenario abilities/effects.

Both APs should be fun and awesome (I had a blast playing S&S, and although I haven't gotten far into WotR yet it's been fun for the couple scenarios I've played). My recommendation is get both ;) or failing that consider also the release schedule.

S&S is fully released, you can get it now and play nonstop and finish it in short order. WotR is still being released, with each new adventure deck (5 scenarios each) coming out once a month. This means you won't be getting your hands on AD6 and the final scenarios of the story until 5 months from now. If your group doesn't play that often, that may be fine, but if they play a lot then S&S may be a better investment right now.

Also consider if you want the promo cards. If you do, your best bet is picking up a Card Game subscription here on paizo.com as you'll get every promo shipped to you as part of the sub. However, the sub is currently WotR-only, so if you go that route you'll be locked into WotR. You can still get S&S promos secondhand (with exception of Ranzak which is sold online here), but you can no longer get them through retailers or online here.


Thank you for your reply!

skizzerz wrote:

Theme: Both S&S and WotR are based on established RPG adventure paths (available for purchase here on paizo.com), if you don't mind spoilers you can look at the product descriptions for the RPG adventures to see roughly what the storyline is for each one.

skizzerz wrote:

Scenario Variety: See "Theme" above; the scenarios are straight out of the RPG storyline. When the story throws unique things at the players is when the scenarios get to break out of the norm. When it doesn't, then they don't.

Oh, thank you, that's actually really useful information. I'll take look at them.

skizzerz wrote:

S&S does ramp up in difficulty far more than RotR does as you go onwards, decks 5 and 6 are very brutal.

Is that because of a huge jump in difficulty in AD 5 and 6, or is it more gradual?

skizzerz wrote:
consider also the release schedule. S&S is fully released, you can get it now and play nonstop and finish it in short order. WotR is still being released, with each new adventure deck (5 scenarios each) coming out once a month.

That's a good point, though I'm not sure how fast we'd blaze through the scenarios really. With my GF I'd see 2~week happening, but with our large group it'd probably be fine.

skizzerz wrote:
Also consider if you want the promo cards. If you do, your best bet is picking up a Card Game subscription here on paizo.com as you'll get every promo shipped to you as part of the sub.

I'm in the EU, so I don't think getting the game directly from Paizo would work out, with shipping and customs, sadly enough.

skizzerz wrote:
My recommendation is get both ;)

I knew this one was going to show up :P


MagnificentMagpie wrote:


***Difficulty***
From what I read about WotR, it's pretty hard, but the opinions seem to be divided on whether it's unfairly hard, or just needs more careful management of information and resources than previous PACG adventure paths. Has anyone played through enough of WotR to give a more nuanced opinion on this yet?

I think that some of the assessments about Wrath's difficulty are overblown. What I will say is that the five scenarios in the base game are, as a whole, far more difficult than anything we have seen before. Their are several scenarios that make cornering the villain more difficult or have an incredibly high bane to boon ratio. Some scenarios force you to run a gauntlet of barriers, which makes it more likely to get the potentially show stopping draw of Arboreal blight or demonic hoard.

For me, it took me fourteen games to get two parties through the first five scenarios. Aside from a loss in Brigadoom in my first game, I haven't lost a starter game in wither RotR or S&S.

So why would I question the assumption that Wrath is far more difficult? Because once you hit AP1 things get much easier. You have scenario rules that make it easier to close locations. The boon/bane ratio improves in general, but more importantly you always have a small number of barriers. The new banes don't include anything nearly as tough as Arboreal blight,demonic hoard or corrupted golem, so adding cards actually dilutes the threat of bane overall.

I'm 8-0 in games in AP1. It doesn't seem harder than S&S, if anything it feel easier (though my mind could be playing tricks on me on that front. S&S difficulty ramps up nicely in later scenarios)


So far I'm 3-0 in the base set adventures, however I have to say these are incredibly difficult and have really stretched my brain to navigate. RotR felt like a fun light dice chucker on par with Elder Signs where as WotR gives me the satisfying brain burn of Mage Knight or Robinson Crusoe. It is by no means impossible but sometimes you just have to accept that his is about survival and not dominating the scenario, you can't afford to have junk cards, and every boon is worth going after if for no other reason than to have it in hand to discard later. I'm loving it! Balazar is definitely one of the most unique characters I've used I a game like this, I love that I'm constantly trying to get in fights with him to fuel my monster card engine.

I haven't played S&S yet but if you like challenging coops then you really can't go wrong with WotR. I am looking forward to catching my breath once I start deck 1.


If you had to pick only one, I'd go for S&S. You really can't go wrong with pirates and high seas adventure, and the difficulty does ramp up pretty nicely.

Wrath's difficulty comes mainly from the VERY flavour-appropriate source of sheer randomness. The Worldwound is a crack in reality which is allowing the VERY ESSENCE OF CHAOTIC!!! EVIL to pour into our world, and untamed randomness is always going to be your worst enemy.

That, and the most annoying mechanics (things that do damage before and after you act, unavoidable deck pokes, etc) are hitting you right from the start.

Pathfinder ACG Developer

It is perhaps worth note that there are plenty of Wrath dangers yet to come, in ADs with numbers higher than 1.

Wrath's difficulties do tend to be more slavering clawing mashing in your face damage rawr kinda threats, while Shackles tends to be ships crashing, you're drowning, someone sang away one of your party members kinda threats.

Honestly, they're both pretty cool. I'd say Wrath is slightly more complex and I like the characters in Wrath a little better, so I prefer it. At least half of that is because I got to work on it, and not Skulls and Shackles. So grain of salt.

End of the day, S&S has a very compelling theme, so in a pro-pirates and guns group I'd give it the nod, otherwise I'd stick to the more traditional theme and go wreck some demons.


I am not a fan of incredibly difficult games, so I'm coming at this from a much different angle, so here's my 2 cp. At this point I feel Wrath has been harder (only played the base set, though). However, it feels more 'fair' so to speak. S&S, especially certain later scenarios, can be very RNG dependent (The Bell Tolls, Bizarre Love Triangle, and Admiral Thune immediately spring to mind), and the game itself, especially with large groups, is already heavily RNG dependent (You have less time per location, so Henchman/Villains near the bottom are especially painful in 5-6 player groups). We failed 4 times on the base set, though at least a few of those can be directly attributed to poor play (exploring a location with someone that had no hope of closing it being the big one), and the rest are highly bad luck (not getting a 5 on 2d6 twice in a row, the aforementioned 'all henchman on the bottom' situation).

I believe the end result is that they're about equal in difficulty, though I hope Wrath will continue to feel less like it's less up to the whims of fate.


My 2 cents, wrath is super duper hard as solo with Balazar. I've been stuck on scenario three in the base set for awhile now. It took me 3 character deaths on scenario #2.. so yeah. I'm kind of shocked that its so hard. My hope is that after I get through the base set and get to deck 1 it gets better. Also, is it me, or are the spells harder to recharge than in earlier sets?


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My solo strategy is to play 2 or 3 characters instead of just 1, helps even out the checks by picking characters that complement each other and allows me to get past otherwise nearly impossible things. That said, if you are soloing with 1 character and you do come across something that is literally impossible for the character to do, remember the rule that allows you to replace that thing with something doable but (roughly) equally challenging. For reference, I've reproduced it below:

WotR rulebook, pg 18 wrote:
Some cards are particularly difficult in solo play. If you're playing Enora by herself, and you pick up a Telekinesis Trap, you may be making impossible Acrobatics checks until you die. When you encounter a card your character just can't deal with, remove it from the game and replace it with another card of the same type that roughly matches its power level but isn't quite so impossible to overcome.


I checked out an indepth description of the WotR adventure path, and that got me pretty excited about how the card game would turn out. Especially Adventure 5 sounds like it'll be pretty amazing! So then I started considering going for WotR after all.

However, following comments on the difficulty (and looking at the amount of adorable animal allies in SnS), made me switch back to SnS.

Specifically:

Keith Richmond wrote:

Wrath's difficulties do tend to be more slavering clawing mashing in your face damage rawr kinda threats, while Shackles tends to be ships crashing, you're drowning, someone sang away one of your party members kinda threats.

DROWNING! CRASHING SHIPS! SCARY SONGS! That sounds more like my cup of tea than icky demons. Keep that walking worm thing away from me!

In addition

Joshua Birk 898 wrote:

So why would I question the assumption that Wrath is far more difficult? Because once you hit AP1 things get much easier.

and

isaic16 wrote:
At this point I feel Wrath has been harder (only played the base set, though). However, it feels more 'fair' so to speak. S&S, especially certain later scenarios, can be very RNG dependent (The Bell Tolls, Bizarre Love Triangle, and Admiral Thune immediately spring to mind)

Made me think on the nature of difficulty in a PACG, and in WotR specifically. One of the ways they (will) compensate in WotR for the more difficult checks is with the mythic paths, ie making you roll d20s. That pretty much means that you'll be more at the whims of bad luck than when you roll smaller dice to make smaller checks.

A lot of the game and it's difficulty is working around RNG, and that includes the shuffling of the decks and the rolls of the dice. The scenarios mentioned by isaic16 have a heavier shuffling RNG, but WotR will probably have an higher roll RNG overall. I'm actually more comfortable with the first kind than with the second as a tool to increase difficulty (and I'm pretty sure WotR will use its fair share of it too). Dice to decide outcomes are fine and exciting, but manipulating decks is a bit more interesting to me.

Anyway, thank you all for your insights! As a sidenote, I'm also pretty interested in the upcoming set. Mummies and tombs and ancient treasures? Count me in! I might even try that subscription thing after all when it comes out. As long as I get the big box locally, shipping/customs is actually fine.


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If you've got a lot of time to commit, I'd say S&S purely because it's all out now and you can burn through it. When you're playing the game deck to deck, five scenarios don't spread well across an entire month, and Wrath will always be there waiting for you when you're done. If you really get into it, you've also got the option of paying a little more and getting all the Seasons of Shackles scenarios, which is a pretty good way to extend the life of what you already own and try more characters without running them through the same scenarios over and over again.

My wife and I share the opinion of "ick, yucky" when it comes to Wrath. When you go through a sequence of encounters like Worm Demon, Worm Demon, Giant Maggot Swarm, Giant Fly you start to feel a little put off. Like come on, there has to be a few greater demons that aren't centrally based in slime and vermin. At this point we'd even endure an overly sexualized succubus or two just to get a little variety! :D

(Giant Amoeba is super cute though)

(but that Giant Fly needs to stop screwing up Adowyn's carefully managed scouting >:|)

The determination of S&S as "fun" was the biggest pull for us. Even though it's been repeatedly said that Rise of the Runelords isn't meant to just be "generic fantasy scenario," that's what naturally springs to mind when you're wading through goblin hordes. There was a lot more interest for us in opening a new set of S&S to "wow, eel people!" because it was something we hadn't experienced in an RPG setting before--we've played a lot of Diablo, we know from demons. S&S is rich with flavor. Characters like Jirelle (half-elf swashbuckling pirate queen!) ring with a little more novelty than the stock archetypes of RotR so, at points, it really felt like playing a brand new game. I mean, the first Loot card you get in RotR is some mythical enchanted medallion (whatever!) and the first one you get in S&S is a magical tricornered hat (hell yes!)

S&S's Plunder smoothed out a lot of issues I had with loot distribution in Runelords. It's still random, but some scenarios give you so much plunder that you're bound to see something interesting. Or, at least, you get the pleasure of flipping over a pile of mystery cards at the end of a scenario. Maybe it's the lapsed Magic player in me, but the thought of sifting through 14+ unknown treasure cards kept me interested until the end of every single scenario. Where, judging all-too prematurely, I look at Mythic Paths and think, "that looks like another fiddly bit to keep track of in our very small NYC apartment with its laughably tiny dinner table" My guess is that Wrath is going to have a lot of things you really don't want to fail (if someone dies in the Family Tomb, everybody dies?) and that's what the d20 is about. That can be neat! But it remains to be seen if it's as rad as throwing every Blessing of Abadar you have at a Goblin Keelhaulin' and coming out the other side eight cards richer.

Don't get me wrong, it's not like we didn't play through Runelords 3-4 times, but coming to S&S was this cavalcade of fun-to-say names, places, and things--"Goose in the Rigging," "Tot Flask, ""Geffer Tibbs," and the #1 All Star "Barefoot Samms Toppins(!)"--where, sometimes, you'd hit a new RotR of like "so these grotesquely obese ogres are really hitting that weird X-Files theme episode, huh...?" And just have to grin and bear it.

Though, as a fan of creepy cults and the undead, I don't think I've liked the theme of any AP as much as I did The Skinsaw Murders. That really concreted our love of the game. I would play a whole PACG set about Scarecrow Ghouls and similar; I really hope there's some kind of Gothic Horror Pathfinder AP waiting in the wings for them to explore.

MagnificentMagpie wrote:
A lot of the game and it's difficulty is working around RNG, and that includes the shuffling of the decks and the rolls of the dice. The scenarios mentioned by isaic16 have a heavier shuffling RNG, but WotR will probably have an higher roll RNG overall. I'm actually more comfortable with the first kind than with the second as a tool to increase difficulty (and I'm pretty sure WotR will use its fair share of it too). Dice...

I've said it a lot of times on the forums, so I hope I'm not being boring by repeating myself, but we play with an extra location or two in our games; partially to increase difficulty, but also just to make the game last longer (5 scenarios stretched over 4 weeks, after all). S&S did a lot to make the challenge more interesting than RotR--causing us to ease back on our increase-difficulty-through-brute-force method--by forcing your characters out of rote specialization. Like, in RotR you'd never use a skill feat on anything but your primary combat skill until that was maxed. If something in Runelords was going to give you trouble before combat, it was almost always solved by a Ring of Protection or a buried Armor. S&S's diversified barriers, especially, made you go "wellll... maybe I should put that second skill feat into Wisdom, because I need to murder some ships and ~maybe~ crash into rocky shoals a little less often. I love the Temptation barriers in Wrath (especially since they go away without a fuss!) but there's a high % of "directly murder this group of monsters" with a distinctly un-Runelords rider of "and you'll be REALLY sorry if you don't."

As people have said, the difficulty in AP1 of Wrath slacks off a lot after the murderous first few scenarios of the B set. B scenarios are always weird in Pathfinder, their difficulty nudged a little harder than that's written on the cards because you're forced to deal with RNG a lot more--no skill feats or good blessings to buffer bad rolls--before your decks have gotten a few upgrades to smooth out rough patches (and, if you're using the Suggested Decks in the manual, maybe you're doing it with some really non-optimal Basic cards (like Potion of Anything)). Combine that with some notably mean-spirited banes (Arboreal Blight and Carrion Golem) right out of the gate and Wrath wouldn't be my first choice to introduce someone to the game. Between RotR being very straightforward, sometimes to the point of error, and Wrath's initial outlay being pretty grueling, S&S strikes the right balance of difficulty, interest, and fun. And, as the sophomore set, it provided what was missing in RotR: diversity. I loved item-based Merisiel to death, but she had more than one Magical Spyglass in her deck just because there was nothing as versatile to fill the slot. S&S gave us a lot of things that operated outside of the category norms Runelords had trained us to expect--Guns that add to your Wisdom check! Spears that aid your Constitution! Bandanas of Swashbuckling! Potions of Flying!--and that was just so fresh. It perfectly hit that feeling of "gosh, what will they think of next?" RotR character advancement decisions often boiled down to "okay, what gets me more dice on my combat check?" S&S was about "I think we need to keep this Ring of Fortitude, and Jirelle should put her first point in Constitution, just so the Sea Caves stop murdering us."

(also, thematically, you're encouraged to say "Yo ho!" a lot!)

MagnificentMagpie wrote:
However, following comments on the difficulty (and looking at the amount of adorable animal allies in SnS), made me switch back to SnS.

If you're looking for cute animals, S&S definitely has it in spades. I mean, look at this AP6 heavy hitter! In my estimation, she should make the choice for you.


+1 to everything Dave said. That was one of the best postings I've read on the Paizo board.

Yo ho!


Aw, thanks!

Though, looking at it now that it's posted and formatted, I apologize profusely for the wall of text. m(__)m


jduteau wrote:

+1 to everything Dave said. That was one of the best postings I've read on the Paizo board.

Yo ho!

Seconded! In all honesty, that wall o' text really sums up my experience with the three sets so far. Shackles really got me with the sense of fun and diversity.

Don't get me wrong, I love the distinctly Diablo feel of wading through the demonic legion, but it's missing the Shackles factor for me at this point. But hey, I'm feeling good about it: we have 5 more APs to go!


Haha, yeah. I don't want to take away from the sentiment that I am distinctly enjoying Wrath, it just hasn't clicked in the same way yet. As it is, we've stopped being "boardgamers" and now essentially only play Pathfinder while several sets of Descent, Lord of the Rings, and Netrunner linger on our shelves (I haven't even bought Manor of Ravens when, as mentioned, Gothic Horror is my #1 thing). At the rate we're going we'll play, and love, PACG until either Paizo dies or we do (from wasting away into nothing due to a lack of new Pathfinder).


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Dave Riley wrote:
[A bunch of awesome words about how he feels about Skull and Shackles]

Thank you! I had kind of made up my mind, but reading your post pretty much took all doubt away. I immediately went ahead and placed the order.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Dave Riley wrote:
Though, as a fan of creepy cults and the undead, I don't think I've liked the theme of any AP as much as I did The Skinsaw Murders. That really concreted our love of the game. I would play a whole PACG set about Scarecrow Ghouls and similar; I really hope there's some kind of Gothic Horror Pathfinder AP waiting in the wings for them to explore.

It's called Carrion Crown.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

He is talking about the card game, though.


There's some story guides for Rise of the Runelords and Skull & Shackles I worked on with BGG user Kittenhoarder that might sway your opinion. I created supplementary guides for the Blessings Deck and the Hero Origin stories that will assist you in picking up the Pathfinder lore within the context of the card games (I assume of course you have general D&D Monster Manual knowledge, because I didn't do a guide for the creatures.)

You can find these projects registered under the Community Use section of Paizo's website. It contains the necessary links to Boardgame Geek so you can download the files.


Theme: Sounds like you know what you like.

Characters: Sounds like you know what you like.

The cohorts are ally cards that provide a boost to help you overcome the significant challenges in Wrath. They're still cards that are in your hand.

Difficulty: Wrath isn't just an increase in numerical difficulty, it's a different way of thinking.

There are more interesting effects on the creatures and locations. The challenges have increased but you'll also have lots of tools that will help you meet these challenges (mythic paths, cohorts, loot).

When I was playing, the only times we came close to failing was when someone made a strategic mistake in either deck building or play. At least the possibility of failing is there. Haven't failed yet however in AD 1/2. I believe it will get more difficult in AD 3+ unless Paizo gets unnerved by the difficulty feedback in the B set.

Scenario Variety: I think the scenario variety is good in both products. They're just different flavors.


Autoduelist wrote:

There's some story guides for Rise of the Runelords and Skull & Shackles I worked on with BGG user Kittenhoarder that might sway your opinion. I created supplementary guides for the Blessings Deck and the Hero Origin stories that will assist you in picking up the Pathfinder lore within the context of the card games (I assume of course you have general D&D Monster Manual knowledge, because I didn't do a guide for the creatures.)

You can find these projects registered under the Community Use section of Paizo's website. It contains the necessary links to Boardgame Geek so you can download the files.

As a matter of fact, we're already using the story guide for SnS! Thanks a lot for your work on it, we feel it really adds to the experience.

We're really enjoying SnS, and I'm very happy with my choice. From what we've played of SnS and from what I've seen from WotR, SnS was definitely the right choice for us, both thematically and difficulty-wise.

Also, I must have been drunk when I said I liked the SnS characters less than the WotR ones. DRUNK ON DAMIELS AWESOME POTIONS THAT IS.

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