Help! Tank needed - melee class, no combat maneuver bonuses


Advice


hey there, first post from me!
so my local gaming group is just starting up a pathfinder game, and it's a low / secret magic campaign. I am going to be the only one playing a melee class (just because I like it) and I get the feeling I'll be the only one willing to tank.
the problem is, our DM doesn't really give out a lot of good combat bonuses for trip / disarm / etc... so I need to find a class that does well with tanking without relying on combat maneuvers. I'm not new to gaming, just to Pathfinder.any help would be great!

(this post brought to you by talking into my tablet, apologies for any typos or capitalization I missed)

-CP


What do you mean by "not give out a lot of CMB bonuses"? Unless the GM is house ruling to restrict the style there are plenty of ways to get CMB bonuses in the rules, especially with archetypes that are built for it.

It's pretty difficult to give advice without knowing exactly what sort of house rules you're playing under. Pathfinder is a very high magic system, and one of the reasons tanking isn't really viable is because magic makes it entirely trivial to get around a tank (and there's no taunt system to force an enemy to focus you anyways). What does low magic entail for you?

Scarab Sages

Tabletop RPGs are nothing like what World of Warcraft devolved into (unless the DM doesn't know what they're doing and forces it to be), so you don't need to think of it in terms of specific combat roles. Anything can be made to work (though some party compositions are certainly more or less challenging than others).

That said, if you want to make a warrior who's built like the proverbial brick s**#house and doesn't rely overmuch on combat maneuvers, the obvious choice is a Barbarian - they have more hit points than any other presently-existing class and lend themselves well to have a VERY direct approach to combat. Try a Dwarf or Half-Orc with 18 or 20 Constitution, and fights with a weapon and shield, and you should be a very happy camper.


Paladins being able to self-heal leads to interesting tanking... Plus they get spells and other goodies!


Yeah, it's less about tanking and more about sustain; Barbarians and Paladins are the best for this because Barbarians can negate a lot of damage with their DR and Paladins can self-heal without losing actions. On the flip side, Fighters have the worst sustain of all the full BAB classes (even the Monk has a form of healing, even if it's terrible).

What you should really be looking for in a full BAB class is ways to contribute without depending on your casters to do so; you should be good without them, so you can be awesome with them. Bloodrager is another class that is very good for this, even though they're lacking in damage mitigation they come with their own buffs (especially the bloodlines that give you a major spell buff while raging, like Arcane) so the wizard doesn't need to cast it on you.


Though a Fighter can have the best avoidance (AC) in the game.


The warpriest is also a pretty good damage sponge, but the paladin is probably better. The warpriest does have a nice trick for when he draws too much heat. Take your combat action and fervor Sanctuary on yourself at the end of it. Half of your attackers should fail the will save for attacking you during their turns. And of course, only a few NPCs will succeed on the knowledge arcana check to know that maybe they shouldn't attack you this round.


AC protects against damage, but the Fighter's AC is counteracted pretty heavily against the Fighter's poor saves*. Barbarians, Paladins, and Core Monks have very strong saves so even though their AC is lower their ability to mitigate threats is better.

Also I think the Monk actually has the best AC but don't quote me on that.

*This is assuming you're not playing an Eldritch Guardian, in which case throw everything I just said about Fighters out the window. The Eldritch Guardian is really good.

Scarab Sages

Arachnofiend wrote:


Also I think the Monk actually has the best AC but don't quote me on that..

They are certainly among the best at AC, but if they build for AC they typically suck at damage unless they grab dex to damage somehow.


Not sure I agree. Reflex saves aren't that important for tanking and the Barbarian and the Paladin don't have much better saves.

Will saves matter but once you get Clear Ioun Spindle Wayfinder, you are mostly good.

We should do a build off to see if you can make a Monk with higher AC than a Fighter!

Level 12??


As was touched on, there really isn't "tanking" in Pathfinder per se. There's very little that will direct a motivated enemy NPC from beating up a squishier class like an archer. You really only have two options:
1. Have a character that is in the right place at the right time (usually in the enemy's face) and gives a reason for the NPC to hit them rather than just provoking the AOO and moving on to squishier targets. An example of this is a Reach- build with Improved Trip, or a heavy hitting barbarian.
2. Have a character that reduces enemy damage without actually taking the blow. This usually relies on magic of some kind, so I'm not sure how well that works for your campaign. An Oradin (Life Oracle multi-classed with a dip of Paladin) is a good example of this.

Liberty's Edge

I've been doing a pretty good job of tanking through stuff as a Paladin/VMC Oracle. I can only Lifelink one ally at a time at the moment (only level 6), but I put it on the only other melee guy in the group, and it's working great. Thanks to Fey Foundling combined with 8 Lay on Hands per day and 7 Channel Energy per day, and a decently high HP to start, I can heal through almost anything that gets thrown at me. And with a Grayflame bastard sword and a rather dangerous "mount" fighting beside me, I can put enough pressure on the enemies that they can't afford to ignore me, either.

I'm also covering the group's primary healer role, since I can both area heal with Channel Energy, and use Lifelink to take their wounds onto myself after battle and heal myself (which is far more efficient thanks to Fey Foundling).


Secret Wizard wrote:

Not sure I agree. Reflex saves aren't that important for tanking and the Barbarian and the Paladin don't have much better saves.

Will saves matter but once you get Clear Ioun Spindle Wayfinder, you are mostly good.

We should do a build off to see if you can make a Monk with higher AC than a Fighter!

Level 12??

Erm... Barbarian and Paladin saves are insane. You are really undervaluing Superstition and Divine Grace. Not to mention the Barbarian can just spell sunder through no save spells like Maze.

I'm not really interested in doing a build off, a large part of the point of my last post was that AC doesn't matter as much as people give it credit for and it alone does not mean a class has good defenses.


Dear OP,

Arachnofiend wrote:

What do you mean by "not give out a lot of CMB bonuses"? Unless the GM is house ruling to restrict the style there are plenty of ways to get CMB bonuses in the rules, especially with archetypes that are built for it.

It's pretty difficult to give advice without knowing exactly what sort of house rules you're playing under.

That.

I have a whole lot of martial build ideas, but I need to know what sets of rules are allowed and what aren't. It's low magic, but can you take levels in Alchemist? Can you take levels in Ranger or Paladin, and if you do, will the get spells?

And what do you mean by the "DM doesn't really give out a lot of good combat bonuses for trip / disarm / etc..." Is he limiting your character build choices, or is he just going to be stingy with treasure?


If he's referring to magic items to boost CMB, then I don't think there are very many of those anyway.


Meanwhile, here are some

Interesting Tank Builds


Wow, thanks for all the advice so far! Let me see if I can clarify a bit...

The DM doesn't want to mess with CMB/CMD he wants to more heavily rely on a story/RP game where things like improved trips and sunders dont exist. you can still do regular trips sunders feints, etc. But just the regular ones, and you dont need to "know" how. You just roll to hit. I think he bas too many twinks in the group who would bog down every combat otherwise with 200 pages of rules.

By a low magic setting, I meant that the world we are playing in is very magic-phobic. This game takes place a hundred years after a setting he ran several years ago which was super magic heavy everywhere. All of the other gamers in our local group are playing a caster class, but I went with brawler. Due to the actions of the previous game's players the general populous of setting is very much "burn the witch" on sight/discovery.

I have a feeling I will have to be making a noble sacrifice of my character here shortly, so no more brawler. He is the sworn protector / bodyguard of our group's summoner and I don't see him lasting very long.

so because we have the casting angle covered, I would happily play another melee class. I just use the word tank to get the general idea for what I'm going for: basically a hit point Sponge. also, we have sneaking taking care of as well.

A paladin is intriguing, what's the 411 with them? I have played your standard paladins to death. anything fun come to mind (keeping in mind the CMB thing?)

-CP


If your party is relatively good aligned, and you often fight against evil aligned bad guys. Then Paladin is probably good choice. You can take a look at the Paladin Guide and see what you like.

In general I think a big two-handed weapon plus power attack, and relying upon heavy armor, hp and lay on hands to keep you safe from hp damage is a better option than weapon + shield. An archer paladin can be very deadly if you want to go that route. You also want to look at options like Oath of Vengeance as well as the various litany spells from ultimate combat.

For a more spellcasting paladin, Sacred Servant is a good option.


If even Paladin magic is frowned upon in your world, then you should probably just go Barbarian. Sadly, the Brawler loses too much in a game without maneuvers. Brawler doesn't have much else going for it. It's the lowest damage of the full-BAB classes.


So, it sounds like your DM isn't exactly not letting you use a combat maneuver character, he just wants combat maneuvers roleplayed rather than enumerated. So, you might be able to have sword-and-board character who pushes opponents around the battlefield with his shield, he just doesn't want the mechanics of the Bull Rush Combat Maneuver.

Your Brawler might be a good wrestler, so if you are in a situation where wrestling makes more sense than beating on someone, he might go, "Yeah, ok, he's grappled." Or maybe, "All, right, I'll let you knock him down." And will he let you jump from the hippogriff's back with a coil of rope around your arm onto the back of the flying red dragon, twist its claws behind it's back, tie them together, muzzle it with more rope and bear it to the ground? Maybe, if makes a good story...

It sounds like a way for him to keep the game from being more high-powered than he wants it to be, though, maybe he's even simplifying the combat rules because he wants the game to be more about roleplaying and less about combat.


Im not complaining about the Brawler. I went Mutagen just to be extra underpowered. I just dont think im going to end up living long due to my "bodyguard" status, so im rolling up number two for when the day comes.

Liberty's Edge

I am very good at protecting my allies from conventional attacks (attacks against AC), without magic items I would only lose +1 currently on my ability to grant AC.

Click on the Profile to see a more detailed break down.

Edited: I can currently provide up to +17 to an ally's armor class (though to get this high can't happen until I have taken my 3rd swift action)

Round 1: Swift Crane Style, Move Authoritative Command, Standard Fight Defensively (Adjacent Allies have +3 luck bonus to AC, Allies following Authoritative Commands gain +1 competence to AC)
Out of Turn Self and Dog bodyguard adjacent allies +10 AC (see profile break down for how this gets so high)

Round 2: Swift Challenge (pick weak ally as ward), Move Authoritative Command, Standard Fight Defensively: As last round but you take -1 AC and ward gains +1 untyped AC

Round 3: Swift United Defense (ward ally), Move Authoritative Command, Standard Fight Defensively: As last round but you take 21 AC and ward gains +3 untyped AC

Total AC bonus for Warded Ally +17 (when bodyguard hits)


If your GM allows 3rd party OGL classes, you might want to check out the armiger from Rogue Genius. It's a class designed to be a tank. The class provides many class abilities used to protect adjacent allies, gives TONS of hit points, and is balanced by having a medium "to hit" advancement track. Basically, the armiger soaks up damage while protecting an ally.


tanking one at a time isnt like tanking load of monsters.
1 a time a grappler druid or monk is the best.

i got several weird tanks that can work here.

1) the scary one .
lore warden 9, thug rogue 3.
eldritch heritage shadow and spring attack, max out acrobatics.
move in, attack and disappear - foe is scared and running.
stand and dirty trick him \ sicken \ shaken \ dancing spear (dazzle) and rogue talent to add -10 to the opponents attack.

The Exchange

see DR-based character builds, because I like making characters that don't do what most characters do and you may like that too.

These builds all have little offence, however, because all the feat slots are filled up trying to get as much DR/- as I can, and a -2 to attacks for Fighting defensively

You could take out the entire class levels of Cav4/Ftr3 because all they do is give you one more DR. take whatever class levels you want, as long as you eventually get Stalwart Defender so you can get 14 DR/- with adamantine armour.

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