The D-team; A discussion on adventuring with no full casters.


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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I've heard on these boards that Wrath of the Righteous is mostly underpowered even if you never let the PCs become Mythic, thus requiring upwards adjustment of many encounters. So how about instead of adjusting the encounters up, require that the PCs be a D team?

More Wrath of the Righteous thoughts here and the following post.


PC party at the start of Mummy's Mask:

Paladin Archer
Paladin Sword & Board
Unchained Rogue

By 3rd Level:
Paladin Archer
Paladin Sword & Board
Unchained Rogue
Bard

And now at 5th level:
Paladin Archer
Paladin Sword & Board, dip into Oracle
Bard, dip into Rogue
Synthesist Summoner
Sorcerer (Fire Elemental Bloodline)

They have had it pretty dicey w/o a full caster until recently (two party deaths, one resurrection), but having dual Paladin abilities & Bard to fall back on works for them.

The Exchange

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Ashiel wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
anytime you start talking magic items the class competition goes out the window. You may as well say fighters and barbs are crap because they'll never get magic items, either...so it's a fallacy.

Fighters are crap. Barbarians can be good enough thanks to abilities that help them compensate for fewer items, such as Superstition, and because of cheap purchasable magic items that have effects specifically geared for them such as furious increasing the effective enhancement bonus of a weapon by +2 while raging, effectively giving them access to +3 weaponry.

Meanwhile, a traditional team of divine, arcane, martial, and support can do just fine and overcome level appropriate challenges without ever buying or crafting anything beyond 16,000 gp in value.

The rogues and monks get the short end of the stick but I strongly feel the rogues get the better end because they are better at supporting each other in the game. See, for a monk to get really great AC, they need lots and lots of expensive and highly specific magic items suited for their needs. Magic items they are frankly not going to get if you're following the rules.

Since they cannot wear armor or shields they are instantly losing out on +6 AC before factoring in the difference with armor and shields. Likewise they're missing out on special qualities available on those armors and shields which is also a bummer.

Monks can never reliably buy any bracers of armor that are better than a potion of mage armor and they cannot get shield potions. The best ring of protection you can buy is a +2, and an amulet of mighty fists means no amulet of natural armor unless you want to eat the 50% cost increase which means you're looking at a +1 AoMF at best. Likewise, you'll never get more than a +4 to Dex and Wisdom from magic items.

This means at best, the monk's looking at around +17 AC over what he started with over the course of his career, and he starts with a cruddy AC because he's so MAD he...

Man, you really should get out more.

Do you like, not dip anything with Barb or Fighter or something? Are your Monks and Rogues all pure classed?

I get banned from playing monks at most tables cause people get upset at how unbalancing / effective they are. It's actually funny cause those same people usually just read one of the "monks suck" posts on these forums, and never even new what was possible. Especially if I roll one of the archtypes that can hit Tier 3, like Sensei, Zen Archer, Tetori or Maneuver Master.

FFS you're saying "Fighters are crap"... ummm, right. Lore Warden hits tier 3. Titan Fighter is just... interesting; I haven't fully tested it out, but it opens up some options.

Unchained Rogue is very, very good. Old Rogue? Doo doo. Black Market Connections doesn't do much good if you are dead, or couldn't get the wealth to spend in the first place. Core Rogue is way worse than Core Fighter -- try playing some PFS Core Only and see how it rolls out, it ain't pretty. Sword & Board Fighter, as loathed as it is, actually doesn't lose much being stuck with core since a lot of the shield feats are there. Core Rogue looses pretty much everything that attempts to fix that class.
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HERE'S MY D-TEAM, NO "6th+ SPELL LEVEL" CASTERS AT ALL, AT 17th LEVEL, FTW IN YOUR WITCHWAR PLAYTEST
.

A) SKILL TRICKS Mc'SHANKER -- THE CORPSE v3.75 Unchained edition

Half-Elf Unchained Thug Scout Rogue 8 / Lore Warden Fighter 5 / Strangler Brawler 2 / Bounty Hunter Slayer 2.
-- This guy does massive Sneak OR massive Greater Dirty Trick Checks on every grapple check, and every attack that qualifies for sneak attack -- and he either does sick damage or he's making enemy Shaken, Sickened Blind on hit one and then Entangle, Prone, etc on the rest.
-- Gang Up + Press to The Wall: He flanks with random obstacles and allies, both
-- Scout 8: Gets Sneak when he charges, or even just moves 10' and shoots a bow.
-- Debilitating Attack x2 on sneaks
-- Need to go Non-lethal? Enforcer Feat, 2 saps, TWF and Thug = Everyone's afraid
-- Thug 3, everyone's sickened also
-- He worships Pharasma, for +2 attack and damage on his daggers. He's also a river rat, and Weapon Trained in the close group, etc, etc.
-- Scouting Skills, Social Skills, Ninja Skills ;-) Mobile Damage, Full Attack Damage, Ninja Tricks & Ki pool Talent for a couple SLA's, Debuff the flying f__k out of anything in 30'.
-- Half-elf with Arcane Training, can use all Wizard Wands without UMD. Uses UMD for other items.
.

B) DAMAGE INCORPORATED -- THE BSF v3.75 GH edition
Tiefling (Oni Spawn) Sohei QG Monk 8 / Titan Fighter 7 / Bloodrager (Celestial) 2. Worships James Hetfield and constantly sings "Seek and Destroy!" Ok really he worships Falayna.
-- This guy Flurry's with his Large-sized Adamantine Nodachi +1 (actually +4 for 17 hours a day) Furious Heartseeker Impact at 0 penalty to hit, courtesy of his Effortless Lace. His base dice is 3d8, because of Sohei his weapon counts as cold iron and silver, it actually is adamantine, and Bloodrager makes it count as good.
-- He's a monk, which means he will have an amazing AC unlike what the haters say.
* He wears Mistmail that he turns into mist when he starts each day, for a 20% miss chance.
* OH LOOK, MIST FORM = NO ARMOR BEING WORN NOW?? Yup, he -STILL- gets his Wisdom to AC, and his +2 for Monk 8. And his Dex, AND HIS MAGE ARMOR FROM A WAND. Damn, he's doing way better than full plate, or even the Piecemeal Armor people, AND has a 20% miss chance. Oh and his is almost all Touch AC too, mostly doesn't care about being Flatfooted either. Barkskin QG Monk for +3 or +4 (w/ trait) AC? Sweet. Leaves a nice amulet spot for a Blooded (Destiny) Amulet to make +3 all saves since he takes Fate's Favored trait.
* What's that, Sohei Monk? OH YEAH, Always act in Surprise round.
* What about mobility? Well he's wearing Mistmail... and Cloudstep Slippers. So he air walks all f'in day long. Because he's a Monk, and can afford to do that kind of thing. You know, a 4.5K gp set of shoes, and a 2.25k se of "armor", and he's doing way better than the 12k Haste boots. ...after all, he has his own Imp. TWF Attack routine with a 3d8 base dmg weapon. Hell it's so cheap he buys backups.
* Spend 2 feats on Extra Rage, and your'e covered.
* Monk Perception, sweet.
.

C) SHIDOSHI SENZO TANAKI TEACH YOU THE DIM MAK -- THE "GOD" .MONK. Bloodsport edition
Dwarven Ouat Sensei Drunken Master QG Monk 17, worships Cayden Cailen.
* Effectively Unlimited Ki and Temp. HP, as long as he has a plentiful horn or just a big bottle of whiskey.
* Advice ability like 17th level Bard
* Share any Ki Powers with all allies in a single action... like True Strike. See Invisibility. Shadow Walk (there's long range transpo... from a Monk). Abundant Step (there's Tactical transpo... oh from a Monk)... ...and Restoration with no material component (yup, you guessed it... from a Monk). Rogue magic what??
* Has Ki points coming out his ears from combo of Ouat Ki replacing Stunning Fist, normal Ki and extra high wisdom due to being Ki based attacker, and Drunken Ki on tap. He will not run out in any normal adventuring day or even very heavy ones.
* Take's Touch of Serenity feat because the Will save DC will be very high, and nothing is immune to Touch of Serenity.
* He uses the same exact Mistmail & Cloudstep Slippers combo as Damage Incorporated above, cause hey, he's a monk.

D) ONE
See Porpentine's guide.

Human or Aasimar (Garudakin) or Tiefling (Oni spawn) Zen Archer QG Monk 17, worships his bow.

...then, substitute Paralyzing Fist for Vital Strike, Touch of Serenity for Imp. Vital Strike, and Stunning first for something else. Pickup Mantis Style earlier, and take Quivering Palm Adept. This guy has Ki Focus Bow. He hits, stuns / makes impotent / paralyzes / kills everything that moves. From up to 1600 feet away, around hard corners and over ceilings, ignores Total Cover and total Concealment, and doesn't even need a cyclonic bow to beat Fickle Winds. On the non-damage-requiring debuffs, he uses Tangleshot arrows to target Touch AC, which cuts his max range down to a paltry 800'... shoot. Haha, get it? WTF.

* Oh yeah, he uses the same exact Mistmail & Cloudstep Slippers combo as Damage Incorporated above, cause hey, he's a monk.

=====

Do they have some holes? Sure. Can they rock a mod at 17th with this "D" team? More than most.

If you think they need even more punch, have Shidoshi Senzo Tanaka give up some of his unlimited self healing and switch from worshipping Cayden Cailen to Brigh. He will take Evangelist of Brigh, so he only ever his 16th Monk (losing out on 2 QG powers he could be sharing... that's costly) but he now gets a 1/day Timestop SLA, a 1/day affect a construct with a mind affecting schtick, Jury Rig 3/day or some such, and +4 Disable device. Personally I don't think it's worth it just for 1 Timestop a day, but it's possible if necessary.

Likewise, you could tweak Skill Tricks McShanker by dropping his Grappling backup plan (and the 2 levels of Strangler) to pickup Unchained Rogue 10 and take the advanced ninja Trick "Invisible Blade", for some Greater Invisibility fun. His ki pool is small, BUT SHIDOSHI CAN SHARE HIS KI POINTS SO WHO CARES. Depends if you plan to buy him a Anaconda's Coils and take Final Embrace or not... you know, for "grab & go" combats & missions. If you do stick with grappling as one of his secondary jobs, remember he definitely wants Bushwhack... cause nothing says "Gotchya' sucka'!" like applying the Pinned condition in the Surprise round.

OR, alternatively, you could drop it for 2 levels of... you guessed it, Monk baby! In this case Maneuver Master. Now he can pull the same Mistmail & Cloudstep slippers shenanigans as the rest of the bunch (who needs Fly?), and, he can Dirty Trick (Blind) as a Flurry of Maneuvers, before making any other attacks on a full attack, as just another way of Blinding people and ensuring his sneak attack / chain Dirty Trick routine works.

=====

All this stupid talk about wealth limits, when some of the most OP items in the game cost less than 5K...

Our Tieflings? They got Grasping Tail feat and hold Padma Blossoms. All characters: Slot ioun stone Clear Spindle. Now immune to mind affecting basically.

Everybody owns a Clockwork Key for 500 gold... now Constructs ignore them usually. Slotless item too.

Anyone who ever fights unarmed (like Senzo Tanaka) wears Dustknuckles, for DC 20 reflex or Blind on the first 2 unarmed attacks of every combat... total cost? 25p (that's right, twenty five... gp) for the gloves, and 50gp per combat for the dust.

Skill Tricks McShank buys 10 doses of Tracking Powder for 30p. Each dose adds +10 to his survival check, which stacks with the +5 from his 3500p sense of detection (that is also upping his Perception by +5). No wealth limit issues here.

Bracers of armor? Pffff, wtf are those...?!
** One --wears Bracers of Falcon's Aim (what, 4k or something?). Hello Crit fishing with a bow.
** Skill Tricks McShank --wears Longarm Bracers (7.2k... ooooh! aaaaah!!) ...-IF- he keeps grappling (I mean, free Reposition) as an option, otherwise frickin' Burglar Bracers for about 1k.
** How about Damage Incorporated?? Bracelets of the defiant Wind for 8k.
** Senzo Tanaka?? Also Longarm Bracers for lunging Touch of Serenities. 7.2k

Everybody has 3 or 4 Swiftrunner Shirts at 1k each. AKA outsourced Pounce. Everyone except Senzo Tanaka that is, he prefers the newer chest slot item that trades Moves for Swifts instead, so he can "Ki it up" more, so he grabs a couple of those (2k each).

The only "expensive" item in the group is a Big F'in Nodachi for Damage Incorporated. And frankly everything on that blade is optional, since he worships Falayna and can Greater Magic Weapon +4 his own sword every day for 17 hours. *shrugs*

Ok I'm done now.

EDIT: Correct some spelling (prob not all of it, I'm tired).


Gohaken wrote:
Our Tieflings? They got Grasping Tail feat and hold Padma Blossoms. All characters: Slot ioun stone Clear Spindle. Now immune to mind affecting basically.

Huh? I wonder what that is. *searches*

Padma Blossom wrote:
This perfect lotus flower formed from pink jade offers purity of mind and spiritual calm. While grasped, the blossom grants its holder a +3 competence bonus on Concentration checks and suppresses the following on its holder: morale bonuses, fear effects, and the confused, dazed, or stunned conditions. Twice per day, the bearer can cast calm emotions.

Aha... ahaha.... AHAHAHA!! *continuous maniacal laughter*

*cough*

Ah thanks I've been looking for something that can grant immunity to daze for awhile, but I'll happily take Suppress. Thank you kindly.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Exploiting items known to be underpriced (and repriced or banned from PFS because they don't follow formulas) isn't making an argument here, it's showing knowledge of loopholes.

The bracers of falcon's Aim and the quickrunner shirts are known to be vastly underpriced compared to similar items, for example.

The mistmail is also providing concealment for everyone the monk fights, isn't it? And if it reforms in the middle of a fight, he's suddenly wearing mail and losing monk abilities because of it.

Archetype leveraging also doesn't say much about the core monk, but you are doing a team design.

==Aelryinth


Haha, so much for Dazing Fireball.


Arachnofiend wrote:
Haha, so much for Dazing Fireball.

As long as you only fight enemies with prehensile tails or the vestigial limb alchemist discovery.


Atarlost wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Haha, so much for Dazing Fireball.
As long as you only fight enemies with prehensile tails or the vestigial limb alchemist discovery.

Hey, if your offhand has a Buckler, grasp it in that hand and you are good to go.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Pretty sure you have to actually wield a shield, even a buckler, to get the AC, but YMMV.

==Aelryinth


Eh...

Our party right now, going through RotRL, is:

A Paladin (me)
An Investigator
An Oracle
An Inquisitor
A Ranger

We're doing OK. Though we have had to synergize a bit to cover each other. Granted, my Pally died last adventure so...


^Oracle alone keeps your party ffrom being a D team, and Investigator + Inquisitor definitely bring it up to B team. Only thing missing is an arcane caster, and Investigator even partially substitutes for that.

The Exchange

Aelryinth wrote:

Exploiting items known to be underpriced (and repriced or banned from PFS because they don't follow formulas) isn't making an argument here, it's showing knowledge of loopholes.

The bracers of falcon's Aim and the quickrunner shirts are known to be vastly underpriced compared to similar items, for example.

The mistmail is also providing concealment for everyone the monk fights, isn't it? And if it reforms in the middle of a fight, he's suddenly wearing mail and losing monk abilities because of it.

Archetype leveraging also doesn't say much about the core monk, but you are doing a team design.

==Aelryinth

...it was late night and I was being a cocky @ss when I wrote, apologies for my tone.

Mistmail is only the 5' cube you're standing in... no concealment penalties for you. Goz mask isn't a bad choice for D team all around anyway, if DM chose to fiat the fog rules that way.

And yes, if they can force you into another suit of armor some how, or force you underwater, it reforms. Still at 2250gp it's an acceptable level of risk. Sohei can still flurry in light armor so he only looses some AC from that problem. ZAM suffers until he offloads the reformed armor, for full attacks. He's by no means ineffectual though even then. Sensei isn't flurrying anyway, but loses AC. Rogue, well, depending on if he took Maneuver Master or not he may or may not rock mistmail... but Flurry of maneuvers isn't stopped by armor anyway, so again its only AC loss.

Actually the biggest loss if Mistmail goes down is the Cloudwalking stops working until you don one of your backup mistmails and reactivate -/which costs actions.

Look... it ain't perfect. But its D Team issues. --like this has to play way different. They probably use 25% consumables, not 10%. They burn a wand of mage armor on every module, maybe more than one. 750gp at 17th level is a reasonable small component of "cost of doing business" for a module-sized quest.

Because reliance on consumables is high, wealth for static items is lower... so the players must maximize their value for their expenses in order to have a real crack at something like Witchwar, with no real casters to deal with, say,

Minor Spoiler...
lots of incorporeal touch creatures and their inevitable after effects??
...

To say nothing of the enemy casters.

So yeah, every dirty trick in the book in terms of low cost, high octane gear would be a pre-requisite for a real shot at a true "D-Team" (like not Inquisitors or Bards, seriously) succeeding in that kind of "fish out of water" setup.

Where I got triggered in the ganging up going on earlier in this thread was the whole "only rogues can buy high wealth items" paradigm, which isn't actually true, and, also isn't actually a game-ender even if it -was- true,

But to speak to the point brought up in those posts that a class/build's ability to utilize their wealth/gear is a contributing factor to that class/build's viability (I'm paraphrasing), well, I agree on the premise sure, but not the verdict in that example. BMC isn't as valuable as being able to utilize cheaper items to greater effect than other classes, -ESPECIALLY- in a scenario like this where your party will need a lot of (expensive) consumables to reasonably operate (a 17th level "high magic" module when you have no full / real casters.). Mage Armor wands maybe cheap, but 3rd & 4th level spell wands not so much, nor mandatory scrolls or their replacements.

Scrying or Greater, other divinations, Stone to Flesh, Break Enchantment, Raise/Rez, maybe even Planeshift and Planar Adaptation, etc... stuff's going to be necessary the way a 17th level mod is written and these guys are going to have to cough up the cash from out of their WBL to do it.

So, they go to the Dollar Store and the Consignment shop to buy their gear, and the players must get real creative.

-Goh


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Gohaken wrote:

Man, you really should get out more.

Do you like, not dip anything with Barb or Fighter or something? Are your Monks and Rogues all pure classed?

Humorously the last time I posted a monk on here, it didn't look much like a monk and it caught a lot of flack from certain people on these boards about it being borderline cheating.

For the record, said monk was in fact a barbarian/fighter/monk wearing lots of heavy armor because the most effective thing I realized I could do with the monk class was to ignore all the flavor and fluff and ignore the armorless stuff entirely, generally fought with weaponry as opposed to unarmed strikes, etc.

Quote:
I get banned from playing monks at most tables cause people get upset at how unbalancing / effective they are.

Congratulations. Please, teach us the ways, sensei.

Quote:
FFS you're saying "Fighters are crap"... ummm, right. Lore Warden hits tier 3. Titan Fighter is just... interesting; I haven't fully tested it out, but it opens up some options.

It's so sad to see people talking about tiers when they don't even know what they mean. :(

Quote:
Unchained Rogue is very, very good. Old Rogue? Doo doo. Black Market Connections doesn't do much good if you are dead, or couldn't get the wealth to spend in the first place. Core Rogue is way worse than Core Fighter -- try playing some PFS Core Only and see how it rolls out, it ain't pretty.

PFS doesn't really concern me as it's a mishmash of house rules and is not wholly compatible with even the core rulebook.

I'm also not very impressed with the unchained rogue.

Quote:
Sword & Board Fighter, as loathed as it is, actually doesn't lose much being stuck with core since a lot of the shield feats are there. Core Rogue looses pretty much everything that attempts to fix that class.

Sword & board is my go-to melee style with most martials. I thought by this point that was public knowledge but I guess I've been away from the boards at the moment.

In any case, I really want to hear about these overpowered monks and fighters. We had another poster who often remarked about their awesomeness. I don't desire to return to those dark times but I am legitimately curious about these fabled things. Unfortunately there's more supporting evidence for Bigfoot than there is for overpowered core monks but I will continue to dream.

The Exchange

Ashiel wrote:


Humorously the last time I posted a monk on here, it didn't look much like a monk and it caught a lot of flack from certain people on these boards about it being borderline cheating.

For the record, said monk was in fact a barbarian/fighter/monk wearing lots of heavy armor because the most effective thing I realized I could do with the monk class was to ignore all the flavor and fluff and ignore the armorless stuff entirely, generally fought with weaponry as opposed to unarmed strikes, etc.

That sounds awesome... I'd love to see it.

One of the sickest monk builds I saw posted here on Paizo was the robocop build with katana, a prosthetic leg, and hungry ghost monk for crit-fishing Ki Leech and HP leech, conductive weapon for dipped Cleric 1 Repose domain to no-save Stagger BBEG's several times a day (monk so high Wisdom so decent number of uses per day).
.

Weapons are great. Ki Intensifying weapons make Stunning Fist and Touch of Serenity lower threshold for effectiveness in terms of getting the DC up.

I don't like armor for defense on a monk though, I prefer it for utility or offense.

I currently run a level 7 Monk-not-Monk in PFS (which I'll differ with you on, I like it and they do a lot of RAW things not just house rules) that's a melee debuffer maxing Dirty Trick and secondary is damage.

Tiefling natural fighting Bloodrager (Steelblood) 1 / Monk (Maneuver Master, Four Winds, Qinggong) 1 / Brawler (Snakebite Strike) 1 / Slayer (Bounty Hunter) 3 / Fighter (Lore Warden) 1.

I posted some of the build outline in another thread a couple days ago, I'll come back and Edit this if I find the link quick enough.

From 8th on build goes to Lore Warden 2, Unchained Scout Rogue 1 (for free Shadow Strike and the 3d6 necessary for Surprise Maneuver), then Monk 2nd up to 5th, then Rogue 2nd up to 4th (for charging sneak and debilitating strike) if I play modules past 12th, then finishes with whatever if I actually run him up to 20th through Witchwar, Moonscar and Race for the Runecarved Key.

Right now at 7th he manages to have great defense fighting unarmored by Mist forming his mistmail all day long for 20% miss chance to stack his Monk Wis to AC on it and Mage Armor from wands, and then air walks all combats using Cloudstep Slippers on his own mistmail. So he moves in 3 dimensions but without needing Fly checks.

Walking around with concealment also nets him effectively HIPS.

He fights like Jackie Chan, but with claws, gore and a bite. He gets a dirty trick check on every sneak attack, which is almost every attack since he can flurry of maneuvers - Dirty Trick Blind, before his full attack routine, so all his subsequent attack go against a blind opponent. For most enemies, his CMB is at "don't roll a 1". For BBEG enemies when playing up to Level 10/11 mode, he's usually at "Don't roll a 6 or less" even though he's only 7th lvl right now. He has backup plans for when that's not useful or he needs to move and attack.

He uses Lunge and Grapple to freely reposition enemies before completing his full attack routine, if dirty trick isn't the best call. Often to a flanked/bad position.

His rounds look like one or two enemies at a time Blind, Prone (if applicable), Entangled... and if only single enemy also Shaken and Sickened. If the enemies are all pretty controlled, he stops dropping his Sneak dice for Dirty Tricks and just does damage.

Later he will have Gang Up and Press to the Wall synergizing to make him flank with 2 walls / trees / whatever (like in a narrow hallway, or in a corner), or, 1 actual and the floor, if play testing proves that he needs that. Possibly unnecessary.
.

Most people would say "that's not a monk" because he dips all over. *shrugs* good for them. I wanted to make a Jackie Chan type guy, I just found the mechanics to make it work. He'll be ~45% monk levels by the end of his standard PFS career, and down to 25% monk levels if I actually complete Seeker levels up through 20th.
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Quote:
Congratulations. Please, teach us the ways, sensei.

I apologized for being a cocky @ss when I read back my post today, but it was too late to edit it. Or I would have.

My personal issue is I default to cocky @ss, and have to work hard to reign that in. But hey, I'll admit it. And it doesn't make what I'm saying any less valid.
.

Quote:
It's so sad to see people talking about tiers when they don't even know what they mean. :(

Cute.

.

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PFS doesn't really concern me as it's a mishmash of house rules and is not wholly compatible with even the core rulebook.

We differ on this. I thoroughly enjoy PFS.

.

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I'm also not very impressed with the unchained rogue.

We also differ on this.

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]Sword & board is my go-to melee style with most martials. I thought by this point that was public knowledge but I guess I've been away from the boards at the moment.

I had no idea.

.

Quote:
In any case, I really want to hear about these overpowered monks and fighters

I don't think overpowered is appropriate here. Certainly not my terminology.

But can several Monk archtypes and at least 1 Fighter archetype be built to Tier 3 performance?? Yes, with the current amount of Paizo splatbook resources available.

I posted a rough outline of a 4 person Monk based party using some of those build strategies, over in the "D Team" thread that's currently running... OMFG that's -this- thread! Yeah just a few posts up.

If you want to swap some fully detailed builds I'm willing to do so; I'd -love- to see your armored monk build.


None of those characters has the utility and flexibility requisite of a Tier 3 character.

High Tier 4, perhaps.


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Gohaken wrote:
That sounds awesome... I'd love to see it.

Back in 2012.

Quote:

I apologized for being a cocky @ss when I read back my post today, but it was too late to edit it. Or I would have.

My personal issue is I default to cocky @ss, and have to work hard to reign that in. But hey, I'll admit it. And it doesn't make what I'm saying any less valid.

Don't quit on my account. I find it amusing.

Quote:
Cute.

And true. As Rynjin noted:

Rynjin wrote:

None of those characters has the utility and flexibility requisite of a Tier 3 character.

High Tier 4, perhaps.

Quote:
I don't think overpowered is appropriate here. Certainly not my terminology.
I was confused by your statement here:
Quote:
I get banned from playing monks at most tables cause people get upset at how unbalancing / effective they are.
Quote:
We differ on this. I thoroughly enjoy PFS.

And you may.

The Exchange

Ashiel wrote:
Gohaken wrote:
Cute.

And true. As Rynjin noted:

Rynjin wrote:

None of those characters has the utility and flexibility requisite of a Tier 3 character.

High Tier 4, perhaps.

For the Damage Incorporated guy sure, high tier 4. He's a beat stick with some edges and tricks and extra options. Agreed.

But, the other 3 builds firmly fit the Tier 3 definition.

Ouat Sensei Drunken Master Qinggong monk can break the game with deliberate intent to do so, and is exceptionally good at buffing in his own quirky way, and has other things to do when buffing is not appropriate. He will outshine Tier 5's much of the time.

ZAM with no dipping required, built with the newer splatbook resources and gear and exploiting Trick Shot and Ki Focus Bow as well as his very SADness is exceptionally good at killing everything that moves, and has other things to do when that is not appropriate, and will outshine Tier 5's and heck most Tier 4's and a few Tier 3's much of the time.

You can make ZAM an even higher Tier 3 by double-dipping Wis to Attacks (and adding Wis to damage) via Evangelist of Erastil, snagging Animal Ally along the way and dipping Sacred Huntsman Inquisitor afterwards for Wis to all social skills and Init and knowledges and also over-leveling your AC by RAW back up to full level+1, basically making the SADest Archer ever (who's also got a full level Bird or Small Cat or whatever with Ranger Skirmisher tricks and if you went Aasimar maybe the simple Celestial template too... that he can magically clone for 1 big fight a day or massive additional scouting / puzzle support) with ending abilities of equivalent ZAM 17 (hello Ki Focus Bow & Trick shot) Sacred Huntsman Inquisitor 2 (hello Wis to bluff, intim, diplo, knowledge to ID'ing threats, initiative, access to Divine Favor and Inquisitor list for consumables, and Hunter version of AC) and the full benefits of Evangelist PRC 10. That's ZAM 1 - 6, Evangelist 7 - 16, Sacred Huntsman 17-18, ZAM 19-20. And you still have all the Qinggong utility boosts & buffs (Ki Leech, Shadow Walk, True Strike?, maybe Abundant Step, maybe Gaseous Form, maybe Restoration, maybe Share Memory, maybe Battleming Link, lots of options here.)

...or switch the last 4 levels around if you want Ki Focus Bow sooner for your 800' range vs. touch AC Touch of Serenity --around corners ignore total cover & concealment and pass Fickle Winds-- DC 33-to-35 vs. Will every round, and your 1600' vs. normal AC Stunning Fist DC 35-to-37 vs. Fort every round, and Paralyzing Fist DC 33-to-35, etc.
.

Last year August when Zilfrel started the thread about agreeing on Pathfinder Tier standards, a number of people proposed Tier 4 or in a couple cases even Tier 3 for some archetypes for Monk ...without this level of dipping for optimization and without the more recent splatbooks that make them stronger. Oracle 1 / Sensei X was called out, and ZAM, among others.

Some of the people posting in this current thread over the past days/week, participated in that thread back then.

And JaronK, who stewards the 3.5 Tier system now reposted at Brilliant Gameologists (...even if some argue he's not the "inventor" --whatever that means in collaborative creative space like forums...) also clearly indicated that wherever Tier a class generally fits in, within the normal Tier system, can generally be nudged up or down 1 Tier via optimization. That was 3.5, before archetypes and Paizo splats. And the archetypes change the classes a lot in some cases, or open up unusually advantageous mechanics in others (like Flurry of Maneuvers, or sharing Ki Powers, or Inescapable Grasp, etc).
.

Ashiel wrote:
Gohaken wrote:
I don't think overpowered is appropriate here. Certainly not my terminology.
I was confused by your statement here:
Quote:
I get banned from playing monks at most tables cause people get upset at how unbalancing / effective they are.

Yeah well most tables are not people building characters like this.

They play a base class or archetype out of the book and don't know the Tier system even exists. But inevitably, when one or two of them stumbles across the Paizo forums, they see a pattern of postings that message consistent concepts: "martial vs. caster disparity", "monks suck", "wizards are gods", "blasting is weak", "succubus in a grapple", etc.

For my part, I play a lot of public games, PFS tables or groups getting together of Meetup,com, whatever. And have a couple groups of regularly-gaming-friends that know each other as well. Most people seeing a Monk (that they heard "sucks") operating more capably than their Barbarian or Inquisitor (that they heard are "good") get weirded out or baffled, or sometimes upset.

Anecdotally, in Philly area where I do much of my PFS there's large number of PFS regulars who sigh and complain whenever anyone brings a Zen Archer to the table (now that one was not my fault... that was someone else's. Turns out Trick Shot & a high mobility & perception, and other ZAM-tactics, makes "Chase scenes" largely an auto-win.)

"Zen Archer is OP!!" is a common complaint at those PFS events, because the average player doesn't know what's possible even with the classes they took on their own characters. No idea what the less-informed locals would say if they saw someone bring a fully optimized Exploiter Wizard for high level play, but it'd probably be a a lot of boo'ing and hissing. FYI I love Philly and the regulars I play with there, many of whom I learned from and call friend. I'm not referring to them in all this.

I don't think Zen Archer is OP. Or the monk based builds I posted in this thread, either. But a lot of tables of casual gamers sure would / do.

-Goh
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EDIT: PS - Robocop monk build I saw that I mentioned previously when you brought up your armored, weapon-using monk:

Robocop Monk --reading this build early last year, and the defense of it in the rest of that thread, was what inspired me to look at the monk class all over again. For the first time since Carmendine Monk feat in 3.5 it started to look worthwhile to ask the questions "how can MAD be an advantage?" and "what else can be done to use Monk mechanics for Tier 3 results?"
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PPS - I read over your armored monk build, and the upset one/some people had about wish loops / noble djinni or whatever, and setting aside for a moment the can-of-worms that is dabbling in the Wish economy of high level play, I think your build is pretty Boss. I was particularly impressed with how effective it is at 5th level, let alone the higher level stuff. Errata to Crane Style hurts it now though :-( but re-Errata un-nerfs that some :-)


Yeah the crane wing thing sucks. :|

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Mistmail can be forced to reform by anything which gets rid of the mists.

So, any wind stronger then a light breeze.
RUNNING.
High temperatures/fire (save or not, it still burns away the mist).
Rain or being doused.
Acid breath.
Freezing temperatures (turns to ice)
And, you're looking through just as much mist to see the enemy as the enemy is to seeing you.
Dispel magic.

It's also pretty damn unstealthy (hey, what's with that cloud of mist way over there? There's no fog around here.)

So, I'm pretty sure it's not as effective as you think it is.

But, YMMV.

==Aelryinth

The Exchange

Aelryinth wrote:

Mistmail can be forced to reform by anything which gets rid of the mists.

So, any wind stronger then a light breeze.
RUNNING.
High temperatures/fire (save or not, it still burns away the mist).
Rain or being doused.
Acid breath.
Freezing temperatures (turns to ice)
And, you're looking through just as much mist to see the enemy as the enemy is to seeing you.
Dispel magic.

It's also pretty damn unstealthy (hey, what's with that cloud of mist way over there? There's no fog around here.)

So, I'm pretty sure it's not as effective as you think it is.

But, YMMV.

==Aelryinth

re: concealment going both ways -- While some GM's would run it the way you say, and it sounds logical, that is not RAW, it would be a fiat / house rule.

As a reference point, related to what you pointed out earlier, PFS tries to close off relatively "too powerful" stuff and yet in PFS the Mistmail works as I've described; it is strict RAW.

And in the PF Core book it's pretty clear someone can use the edge of a cloud or darkness effect (or hiding around a corner, in the case of a bow user) to benefit from concealment (or cover) while their enemies do not.
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To quote it from RAW:

Core Rulebook, Concealment wrote: wrote:


To determine whether your target has concealment from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that provides concealment, the target has concealment.

When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has concealment if his space is entirely within an effect that grants concealment.

When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you, use the rules for determining concealment from ranged attacks.

.

Ergo:

1. when making a ranged attack or a melee reach attack against an enemy, you choose any corner of your square (I recommend choosing whichever corner is closest to the enemy). Draw all four line from that corner to each corner of the enemy's space. If any of those lines pass through the mist then your target gets concealment.

So... assuming you are at the edge of the mist and didn't pick a corner behind you, none of the lines will pass through any mist.

2. And if you are inside the mist making a melee attack against an adjacent enemy, he only has concealment if HIS space (not yours) is completely in the area. It is not.

Therefore, no concealment.
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Now with regards to your mist getting forced back into armor, yes it's more vulnerable than say a minor cloak of displacement's effects (to which on Dispel Magic could suppress or Antimagic stuff or whatever). It's also less than 10% of the cost, and has more utility.
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* Dispel Magic can suppress magic items effects and cause problems for anyone, that's not unique to Mistmail. Not particularly convincing argument to avoid Mistmail unless you're avoiding all items.
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* If GM rule's it's vulnerabilities are like Obscuring Mist (less favorable to the PC, though reasonable given that's the spell used in creation --however the spell description does -not- match the description of the item's FX in terms of the fog being thick, and, moving with the PC...) then yes Fireball effects will kill that suit's mist form for the day and PC will have to don another one or just deal with it. As mentioned above, that's not a game ender for any of these guys; it does however reduce their AC and mobility forcing them to use backup mobility options or waste actions in combat. But alas, these are D Team problems.

At 2250p a pop, backup suits are very realistic (and it's dumb not to have them actually). Since we're D Team and we need a lot of consumables and stuff, we probably need to deal with this level of risk given the amount of power you can squeeze out of this item in exchange for accepting that level of risk. You may find some ways to protect against a blast AOE or two each combat, as well, if you're creative.

** On the other hand, if GM rules it's vulnerabilities are like Fog Cloud instead (more favorable to PC, and matches the description of the fog created specified in the item text whereas Obscuring Mist's description does -not- match as indicated above), then you do not have the vulnerability to fire FX at all. It's not clear in the RAW, depends on GM, you're correct on this point for sure: YMMV.
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* Freezing temperatures -- that's entirely DM fiat if played that way, it's not suggested in the item description or either of the candidate spell descriptions.
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* Rain or being doused -- that's also DM fiat; not specified in item, nor in either spell description Obscuring Mist or Fog Cloud. The item description specifies "Underwater," a game term meaning the terrain type as selectable by Rangers for a favored terrain. Rain is not sufficient for that, nor is Create Water.

By strict RAW, even a Decanter of Endless Water on geyser mode would be insufficient --you got soaked, but you're not in "Underwater" terrain. Going for a swim however would kill it, even if you're at the surface (assuming you're not Water Walking).
.

* Acid Breath -- I looked up both the Undine racial ability Acid Breath, and the Dragon's Breath spell that lets you breath acid. I also looked up sorcerous bloodline FX for Draconic, and actual dragons that breathe acid. I did not find an "Acid Breath" spell or analogue besides those 4 things. In all four of those cases I saw no mention of dispersing fog or creating a blast of wind along with the acid damage. So these, along with any element other than Fire, would be entirely DM fiat / house rule.

...And as mentioned above, even the element Fire causing problems is assuming an unfavorable ruling by a DM; one which does not match the item's description in its text. Fog Cloud is closer than Obscuring Mist. Again though, for Fire only and assuming a RAW DM, as you said: YMMV.
.

* Wind Effects (spells, naturally occurring, certain Su / other abilities) -- well yes, these just suck for the Mistmail user. D Team problem, which requires bringing backups. Yes, enemies who know how it works will be able to nerf these guys. Then again, enemies who know how this works can probably nerf other D Teams too, so, I'm not seeing how this is problematic enough to say "No" to the 2250gp cost (or even triple that if you buy two backups for the day), especially not at Witchwar level for the proposed scenario in this thread.
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* Running -- this is not specified in the RAW, and is counter to the item's description. It explicitly states "This mist moves with the character." and does not specify any speed limit. And as logical as it may seem, there is no RAW ruling stating that a running creature is subject to wind effects. That would make things interesting for fine/diminutive creatures, among other things.

This one is also a DM fiat / house rule.
.

=====

EDIT: The point of the Stealth checks is for combat uses: getting sneak attack for the Rogue, or even just screwing their targeting against you and get yourself the +2 to hit their flat-footed AC for them not Perception'ing you in your square.

=====

Look, at the end of the day, I've directly admitted/agreed earlier in the thread that for this D Team challenge vs. a 17th level high magic mod (Witchwar in this case) that I'd pull out all the stops; every dirty trick I can find that's RAW legal. Some people won't play that way, and I don't -usually- play that way, but this is an unusual scenario.

It doesn't seem like fair play in this discussion to disqualify an unusual/extraordinary approach to handling an unusual/extraordinary circumstance, based on the merits & flaws of the approach's "unusual-ness".

If we were discussing making a standard balanced party with casters and stuff then yeah this level of min-maxing and corner-casing would be excessive. But that does not seem to be the point of this thread, quite the opposite.

-Goh

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

THe mistmail is going to act like normal fog. Anything which disperses fog will disperse the mist.

If it's not dispersed...it's a 5' radius cloud. You can hide IN the cloud, and not be seen...but that's completely different then hiding the cloud itself! (just like you can hide in magical darkness, but a big black globe in the middle of the street trundling along is terribly easy to see.)

Running is generating your own wind effect, in effect. Walking isn't a problem...it's less then a light breeze. Running? That's more like a sustained gust of wind.

You got me on the concealment rules there, I'll bow to that, for the other person.

A water effect that completely encompasses your square is basically immersion, and acid breath (5' wide) is basically that, as is the soaker effect from a Decanter. Mist is water, and in frozen conditions will instantly precipitate, so no 'fog' unless it instantly transmutes to snow and is still considered 'ice mist' or something.

Swapping in magic items for powerful effects at reduced prices, like a Quickrunner's Shirt, is pure cheese. :)

==Aelryinth

The Exchange

Aelryinth wrote:
THe mistmail is going to act like normal fog. Anything which disperses fog will disperse the mist.

Reasonable interpretation, but it doesn't use the term "normal fog" in the description does it? Room to argue, as we have been. We disagree here... I think it would act as either Obscuring Mist with the bonus of moving with the user, or preferably, Fog Cloud with the bonus of being able to move with the user.

.

Quote:
If it's not dispersed...it's a 5' radius cloud. You can hide IN the cloud, and not be seen...but that's completely different then hiding the cloud itself! (just like you can hide in magical darkness, but a big black globe in the middle of the street trundling along is terribly easy to see.)

No argument here at all. I'm not suggesting that mistrial allows your to hide the cloud. Enemies will know your square if they know you exist and can see/detect you, and you'd need to be hiding in actual fog or something to hide the mist.

But that's not what I was suggesting as the value add here. I was talking about HiPS for combat uses. Do you know my square? That's nice. If my stealth beats your perception, on my next attack I still get +2 to hit your flat-footed AC (and sneak attack if applicable), because you don't see -me- or what -I'm doing- in my 5' cube of misty fogginess of awesome. Or if it's your turn to attack me and my stealth beats your perception, then despite knowing my square you will have a 50% miss chance.

Either way, I'll take it.
.

Quote:
Running is generating your own wind effect, in effect. Walking isn't a problem...it's less then a light breeze. Running? That's more like a sustained gust of wind.

Again, we disagree. While what you're saying is reasonable given real-world physics, that's not the actual RAW. There is no written rule for movement subjecting creatures to wind effects. Should there be? Maybe so, but there isn't one. And it would cause problems in some cases if there was:

* Are basically all diminutive creatures not allowed to take the Run action, because they get checked by wind?

* What about diminutive fliers with a high base speed? Can they not fly?

* How does their base speed interact with prevailing wind conditions (e.g. running into a headwind vs. running with a tail wind?) Is it like the interaction of Reverse Gravity and Gravity Well spells? I mean, there's some logically reasonable interpretations possible, sure, but hats what they are: interpretations.

Not RAW.

Also remember, the wind rules vs. fog is "disperses in 4 rounds" or at worst "disperses in 1 round". So even with a horribly unfavorable interpretation or house rule for "Movement = Wind effect", you could still manage the problem in tactical combat by always keeping your "moderately fast" movement to 3 rounds at a time or less (avoiding the 4th round that causes dispersal) and your "balls-to-the-wall fastest movement" to less than 1 round... like say, a single move action... from your Quickrunner shirt... and then you Full Attack the enemy which requires no additional continuous high-speed movement.

That whole thought exercise, however, is moot by RAW. Movement does not equal wind fx unless GM house rules that.
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Quote:


You got me on the concealment rules there, I'll bow to that, for the other person.

Cheers -- however I'll be bowing back for your ending comment/argument in a moment...

.

Quote:
A water effect that completely encompasses your square is basically immersion, and acid breath (5' wide) is basically that, as is the soaker effect from a Decanter.

Again, we disagree, and the RAW sports my view.

Your interpretation is certainly real-life physics reasonable, but it's not RAW and the game mechanics allow for "magic" that defies physically reasonable interactions.

Also in this specific case, your argument runs into a definitions problem. The term "underwater" as referenced in the item's description directly, and in either of the spell FX that it may draw from, is a game-specific term-of-art indicating a Terrain type. The evidence for this is in the sentence in content:

"...or entering a place where the fog-magic doesn't function (such as underwater)"

The phrase 'Entering a place' references a location, which in PF / d20 terms indicates a Terrain. Acid Breath, geyser mode decanters, Hydraulic Push and all other "water soaker" FX do not produce the Underwater Terrain type.
.

Quote:
Mist is water, and in frozen conditions will instantly precipitate, so no 'fog' unless it instantly transmutes to snow and is still considered 'ice mist' or something.

Same as above, your interpretation is certainly real-life physics reasonable, but it's not RAW and the game mechanics allow for "magic" that defies physically reasonable interactions. (off topic: even if we were going to "common sense" some physics on this point, it's quite possible to have mist at low temperatures... if the pressure has changed enough to move the freezing point, or the liquid in question has a different freezing point than one assumed, etc, etc...)

.

Quote:

Swapping in magic items for powerful effects at reduced prices, like a Quickrunner's Shirt, is pure cheese. :)

==Aelryinth

Well here, you got me. Yes, it's pure cheese.

Mozzarella melted on top of fontina to make a big f'in mess, kinda cheese.

You -can- pull off some of the stunts I'm proposing without the PFS banned items (e.g. Quickrunner, Padma blossom, Dustknuckles). This is because a good amount of the cheap but awesomely OP items actually are totally PFS legal: Mistmail and Cloudwalking Slippers, Clockwork Key (500gp for a slotless "all constructs, regardless of their HD or intelligence, avoid me" item should -not- be legal, but, it is...), Spring-loaded wrist sheaths for 5gp a pop, etc. Also in terms of feats and traits, Celestial and Deific Obedience feats are legal and part of this craziness, as are all the races/archtypes I've described (you'd need a season 5 or earlier character to field a tiefling, but there's a LOT of those around).

But dude at the end of the day, you are right: This is cheese. Maybe 85%-90% PFS legal cheese, but that doesn't make it "not cheesy". So, yeah, time for a pizza party.

-Goh


If you are the only target, then the construct attacks you, and only if you worship a good god. It doesn't seem that overpowered.

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