Link to a great PbP (not an AP -- but it ought to be considered one) featuring a D-team.
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Because unless you're reading ahead in your own copy of the adventure you can't know that you don't need a cleric. And if you are reading ahead you might just winding up knowing you need a cleric. Remove Disease doesn't do well from a scroll. Neither does Remove Curse, though you could get that from a -- never mind, the D team doesn't have a wizard either. Neutralize Poison is another one that requires a caster level check.Why is the A-Team "necessary" for an open ended campaign with lots of world building?
The best thing about a sandbox style game is that it naturally tailors itself to the characters that exist-- the supposed "A Team" would end up facing different challenges than the supposed "D Team", but in a sandbox they would both naturally be facing appropriate challenges and regardless of which group you had everyone would be having fun.
In my own copy of the sandbox adventure where the players decide where to go and what to do?
Really hard to read ahead in that thing. . .
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anytime you start talking magic items the class competition goes out the window. You may as well say fighters and barbs are crap because they'll never get magic items, either...so it's a fallacy.
Fighters are crap. Barbarians can be good enough thanks to abilities that help them compensate for fewer items, such as Superstition, and because of cheap purchasable magic items that have effects specifically geared for them such as furious increasing the effective enhancement bonus of a weapon by +2 while raging, effectively giving them access to +3 weaponry.
Meanwhile, a traditional team of divine, arcane, martial, and support can do just fine and overcome level appropriate challenges without ever buying or crafting anything beyond 16,000 gp in value.
The rogues and monks get the short end of the stick but I strongly feel the rogues get the better end because they are better at supporting each other in the game. See, for a monk to get really great AC, they need lots and lots of expensive and highly specific magic items suited for their needs. Magic items they are frankly not going to get if you're following the rules.
Since they cannot wear armor or shields they are instantly losing out on +6 AC before factoring in the difference with armor and shields. Likewise they're missing out on special qualities available on those armors and shields which is also a bummer.
Monks can never reliably buy any bracers of armor that are better than a potion of mage armor and they cannot get shield potions. The best ring of protection you can buy is a +2, and an amulet of mighty fists means no amulet of natural armor unless you want to eat the 50% cost increase which means you're looking at a +1 AoMF at best. Likewise, you'll never get more than a +4 to Dex and Wisdom from magic items.
This means at best, the monk's looking at around +17 AC over what he started with over the course of his career, and he starts with a cruddy AC because he's so MAD he cannot effectively split survival vs functional.
Meanwhile the rogues can happily purchase +3 armors which means a +7 to +9 AC bonus. They can also wear +3 bucklers or +3 light shields. This alone nets them a +10-12 AC bonus immediately and takes less time and gear to get their AC up at low levels. They also have no competing items for their neck slot so they grab their +2 amulet and +2 ring with no worries. More than likely a +4 Dex item will also suit them just fine since they're probably going to go for a +3 mithral chain shirt (which is below the 16,000 gp limit). Unlike the monk, they also get Uncanny Dodge so their AC is always functional and they aren't instantly taken apart by anyone ambushing them.
Meanwhile, the rogues can still make use of a variety of great weapons such as bows, longspears, swords, and even maces, morningstars, and clubs, which means they have an easier time golf-bagging and reacting to situations that will utterly shut the monks down (such as having to deal with flying opponents).
Finally, Rogues Can Ignore GP Limits
This is a big one. The rogue talent "Black Market Connections" makes it so that the rogue treats every settlement as a size category larger for the purposes of buying limits and ups the number of randomly generated magic items in a metropolis significantly. However, with a successful DC 35 Diplomacy check, all items are available to the rogue which means suddenly the rogue party has access to 100% of magic items at market value (probably a 10% off, see below).
Suck it monks.
Monks can UMD too. It's only skill points. A trait even makes it a class skill. Rogues are going to have the same money problem. UMD exacerbates money problems. Consumables work for both sides.
This situation is probably the only place a rogue's skill points are going to give it a major advantage but the rogues can tank Int and still have 6+ skill points, allowing them to all very comfortably max Stealth, Perception, Acrobatics, Use Magic Device, Disable Device, and another skill or so of their choice. Monks have half the number of base skill points which means either you invest something into Int or you are trading other skills for it. The free class skill also means they get another trait (which traits aren't core anyway so I don't know why you even brought that up when I said core monks) which means the rogues get something like a reactionary + double starting wealth + 10% discount on purchasing gear, making them better at dealing with consumables as well since the 10% discount equates to +10% WBL which means plenty of extra dosh for consumables.
Monk damage autoscales by level, and multiplies with Vital Strike nicely. Enlarge and similar effects also increase it. What's not freely available to buy, they can commission.
And since rogues were buffed so that they can sneak attack anything but oozes and elementals, their damage also scales by level and doesn't require anything special, and doesn't require them to trade AC for damage (enlarging the monk means -2 to your already bad AC).
The monk also cannot change weapons to adapt to DRs like /slashing, /piercing, /chaotic, /good, /evil and still get the benefits of their scaling weapon dice, while the rogues can golf-bag bane weaponry which gives them +3/+2d6 vs creatures of various types.
Their defenses are much better, in the form of saves, spell resistance (no casters in the party, so who cares?), and movement, and AC on demand. They can also heal themselves, potentially stun enemies, resist mental attacks better, etc. They just plain are going to be harder to stop.
The movement isn't that great of a buff because boots of speed are a mere 12,000 gp, which means the rogues will all be wearing them and will probably have extra pairs to swap between when their current set runs out. The monks do not have AC on their side but their saves are better. Their healing is a wash since neither class does that well (monk healing is a joke). Monks have better immunities but I'm looking at what they can do to actually function on an adventure and monks are not good at that.
Rogues are also screwed if the enemy moves. It's hard to maintain flanks when the enemy keeps moving around on you. Any enemy with uncanny dodge basically shuts you down...or if they are back to back against a wall. Basically, tactics can obviate flanking even in a team.
Rogues are excellent strike-vanishers. Obtain concealment (such as with a potion of blur) and then Stealth. If an opponent moves away from you, Stealth. Open your next attack up with a ranged attack vs them from within 30 ft., move, Stealth again. An elixir of hiding makes this tactic especially potent.
So the only things that they won't sneak attack to death in a group of four is Barbarians and other Rogues. And then, you're still playing a cat and mouse game while the rogues switch to shooting you with a single fairly accurate shot each round with shots that are probably dealing an extra +2/+2d6 damage on you anyway.
Combine with horrid saves, bad AC, lousy To Hit, conditional sneak attack damage...yeah, I'd give Rogues the short end of it.==Aelryinth
:3
Ashiel, your argument is basically coming down to magic items, not class.
Anything you can buy with a +25 Diplomacy mod on the table you can commission, so it's meaningless. 16k gp is the limit if you want it right NOW.
If DR is an issue, the monk can spend the same amount of money on golfbags of weapons, too. He's probably going to use weapons until 10th, anyways. however, unlike a rogue, you can't take away all of a monk's weapons!
Wis+ Scaling Class AC will get you +4-6 AC by level 5, in most cases, and they get +4 on demand if they like. So, AC isn't an issue, and Wis AC doesn't go away in an ambush, either. Dex limits are never an issue if you don't wear armor, either.
You're still talking about a class that requires the enemy to let them flank to do their best damage.
12k per pair of boots of speed is 12k the monk doesn't have to spend elsewhere, and in no way equals their movement bonus. You're better off sucking a lot of potions of speed, or UMD'ing a wand for everyone.
Monk healing may suck, but the Rogue doesn't have any, and if you combine with the right gear, it's surprisingly good.
And the absolute advantage on saving throws and anti-magic defenses is very important, which you are underplaying a LOT, in counterpoint to your usual focus on it.
I find it very strange that you focus on the Rogue's ability to get access to gear that solves their problems, when gear is basically level across the board. All Black Market does is get it to you faster. As a class, the monk is more well-rounded and stronger because of it.
==Aelryinth
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For the last few years I have been playing in a exploration sandbox campaign comprised of a D-team and It has been my favorite so far (20 point buy full BAB classes only, slow advancement). Our players consist of:
Fighter(Lorewarden) - focusing on tripping with whips (could trip nearly anything large or smaller)
Fighter - focusing on disarming (damn skeletons are more deadly if you disarm them)
Fighter - focusing on archery.
Cavalier - halfling riding on an elephant.
Ranger - mounted, our primary damage dealer.
Using strong tactics, teamwork and making heavy use of attacks of opportunity (everyone but the archer eventually had combat reflexes) we actually tore through more enemies than we thought we would be able to handle. The DM certainly challenged us, often using large amounts of enemies (primarily orcs and undead) over a few more powerful enemies.
The campaign had a reasonable role-play aspect and involved heavily on the town we were helping develop with the downtime rules, which eventually expanded into the kingdom building rules.
While healing was a problem, due to teamwork we tended not to take too much damage and we got by with a conservative amount of magical healing. Magical items were not commonplace and we got by on what we found.
I have not been in any other game that the players have worked so well together or had nearly as much fun.
^Wow, no arcane caster at all-- more like an E team. If they can do all righ5, should be fine for a Day team
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Ashiel, your argument is basically coming down to magic items, not class.
Classes and magic items are interlocked. How effectively they use them, acquire them, or produce them, are all measures of power and necessary to actually succeed vs CR appropriate adventures.
Anything you can buy with a +25 Diplomacy mod on the table you can commission, so it's meaningless. 16k gp is the limit if you want it right NOW.
No you can't. Not without GM fiat. Cite me a part in the rules where it talks about commissioning. Begging other people to make you magic items is all well and good, but who is to say that anyone is available to do so? None. It's entirely GM fiat. It might require you to do quests or favors or something to get someone to take time out of their day to do a thing for you, especially when there is no incentive to do so (because they make the same profit whether they're churning out +1 swords or +5 swords).
So...no. Sorry.
If DR is an issue, the monk can spend the same amount of money on golfbags of weapons, too. He's probably going to use weapons until 10th, anyways. however, unlike a rogue, you can't take away all of a monk's weapons![/qupte]So what? Now he's just a sucky martial with little versatility and no class features that actually make him any better at using the god-awful weapons that he's proficient with.
Wis+ Scaling Class AC will get you +4-6 AC by level 5, in most cases, and they get +4 on demand if they like.Hemorrhaging ki points is nice in a pinch but can't be relied on. Likewise, you're talking about an 18+ Wisdom here. That's a joke. And for what? To catch up with the Rogue who has the same AC at 1st level (+3 armor, +1 shield, +2 dex)? Pfft.
So, AC isn't an issue, and Wis AC doesn't go away in an ambush, either. Dex limits are never an issue if you don't wear armor, either.Since Wis to AC is a weaker version of actual armor, I'm not exactly seeing how that's a big plus in the monk's favor here.
You're still talking about a class that requires the enemy to let them flank to do their best damage.Just lose Dex vs your attack. So you can either flank (and you'll all be flank buddies), you fight as well as a monk (better for most levels because you don't have to dump massive points into Dex and Wisdom to avoid getting mowed over by trash) and have better weapons (like longspears that have reach and deal 1d8+(Str*1.5). The monk has no means of actually really pushing damage at all. :|
12k per pair of boots of speed is 12k the monk doesn't have to spend elsewhere, and in no way equals their movement bonus. You're better off sucking a lot of potions of speed, or UMD'ing a wand for everyone.But the monk does have to spend it or else the monk is getting gimped, because haste is the best martial buff that there is and if the monk doesn't he's missing out on +1 Hit, +1 AC, +1 Ref, and an extra attack per round. The speed bonus is a side-effect of the combat buffs (and also makes Stealthing more attractive).
Monk healing may suck, but the Rogue doesn't have any, and if you combine with the right gear, it's surprisingly good.We'll agree to disagree here. Bad healing is better than no healing, but since neither are worthwhile for healing in combat it comes back down to resource management (and rogues win the resource game).
And the absolute advantage on saving throws and anti-magic defenses is very important, which you are underplaying a LOT, in counterpoint to your usual focus on it.This is the monk's best advantage by far. I noted their immunities are great. The problem is, they've got pretty much nothing to bring to the table otherwise. I don't see them actually being capable of handling an adventure very well compared to the rogues.
I find it very strange that you focus on the Rogue's ability to get access to gear that solves their problems, when gear is basically level across the board. All Black Market does is get it to you faster. As a class, the monk is more well-rounded and stronger because of it.
==Aelryinth
Again, you're just wrong on this, or you're calling on GM fiat to make things available that are not. And no, not every GM ever will coddle like that. You do not just walk into a town in my game and find someone who will craft anything you want. You either follow the rules for magic item acquisition, or you beg, borrow, steal, quest, or craft something because that's how it works.
In my experience, once the words "GM Fiat" start being used in a thread its dead. . .
Not really.
Kind of a goofy aside - that all-rogue party can bypass the 16K purchase limit if one of them has the black market connections talent.
Black market connections is pretty funny, but requires being rather wealthy (i.e., higher level) to take full advantage off.
Stuff!
Meh.
It's assumed anyone can bypass the gp cap by commissioning an item through the same people you can buy the 16k gp or less item through. GM Fiat only comes in if the GM says so, and the GM can likewise say to the black market guy 'that item simply is not available' in the same exact way, and be completely blase about it. There's no rule in the book that says its Gm Fiat to be able to commission an item...doing so is a 2E legacy, not PF.
So, the same way magic item shops only exist if the GM says they do, Black Market and commissioning items only work if the GM lets them...but its assumed in the core rules that they do.
So, 'in your campaign' is not the core rules.
Magic items don't belong in a class discussion. They never have. As soon as you introduce them, it becomes about who can allocate GP more effectively, and not about the class.
Likewise, the speed buff of a monk is not just available for 10 rds a day. The instant you started comparing speed afoot to a combat buff you moved the argument...of course the monk will want Haste. There's other ways to get it, however. Blowing 12k on boots for 10 rds of movement that is still going to fall behind the monk at higher levels is, well, crazy. Especially multiple pairs. Just for the combat buff? That's a different comparison.
And again, its interesting Ashiel how you just compare how the Rogue can potentially surpass the Monk in low level AC, and MAYBE combat ability, but then you don't denote just how much the Rogue would have to do just to equal the base saves of the Monk, his healing ability, ability to dimension door, spell resistance, inbuilt ability to bypass DR/Magic and later adamantine, etc etc.
Once you add that emphasis in, and the fact that the Rogues are going to shrivel up and die the first time they meet a spellcaster, I'm giving the nod to the monks.
So, yes, we're going to agree to disagree.
==Aelryinth
I had a thought experiment a while back where I tried to put together a purely martial group (no one with more than 4th level casting) that could handle CR-appropriate encounters. I relied heavily on using races with SLA's (IE, the Ranger was a Garuda-Blooded Aasimar for see invisibility).
I think a party of Ranger/Paladin/Barbarian/Slayer would fare pretty well.
All four are versatile combat powerhouses.
Paladin can handle healing and condition removal.
Ranger can do...Ranger stuff.
Barbarians can be the debuffer (in the sense that he de-buffs people with Spell Sunder) and "That guy who kills everything in one round flat".
Slayer can be the Rogue.
Though Slayer could really be substituted with a lot of stuff, since Trapper Ranger is a thing.
Paladins with Unsanctioned Knowledge can whip out some decent buffs too.
I did Paladin/Barbarian/Ranger/Monk, actually. The Monk was a Sensei build (best buffer you can get without casting IMO).
Sure, in combat they can do well.
The problem is that, as low tier classes, they really cant... DO MUCH other than swing a sword... Oh need to get somewhere in a hurry? Without Deus Ex Machina suddenly showing up yours kinda screwed. Need to traverse a trecherous chasm? I hope you all bought potions of fly... Things like that... they really cant do much about.
Chasm just needs some rope and a good Climb skill, or a badass Acrobatics.
For the other thing, see my posts about what kind of challenges should be presented to the D-Club.
I've thinking of creating a one-shot module for my home game based on the Seven Samurai, using Rite Publishing Way of the Samurai (PFRPG) archetypes for the seven PCs as 4 with samurai archetypes (kuge, nitojutsu sensei, tajiya, and yabusame), 1 ranger (yojimbo), a paladin (yamabushi), and a fighter with levels in Moso prestige class.
The NPC opposition would include an oni leader with brigand (nobushi) and yakuza henchman.
Both sides D Teams essentially. There won't be a heavy need for level appropriate magic items and still have CR balance - though my encounters are usually at least CR+1 vs. the PCs, as my players tend to be a bit more dangerous than their levels might suggest.
Sure, in combat they can do well.
The problem is that, as low tier classes, they really cant... DO MUCH other than swing a sword... Oh need to get somewhere in a hurry? Without Deus Ex Machina suddenly showing up yours kinda screwed. Need to traverse a trecherous chasm? I hope you all bought potions of fly... Things like that... they really cant do much about.
A Barbarian can pick up Greater Elemental Blood (Electricity) to gain a fly speed and a Ranger can use a Roc animal companion to fly. The other two are going to need items to compensate, but the group isn't entirely up a creek.
You can always climb down the wall of the chasm, walk across the bottom and climb back up the other side. No need to fly to get across. Flying is for the lazy.
What are the benefits of a D-team party
Strong levels 1-12, teamwork exists as more than a fictive thought experiment between bloodbaths. Still useful when out of spells/dealing with antimagic/dispells. Diplomacy exists in the world. Roleplay matters.
-What are the drawbacks of a D-team party
No dominating merchants into giving you their goods or geasing rulers into granting special boons :(. More feat reliant, especially vs hordes. Require teamwork to survive. Tactics exist as something one uses, rather than a fallback option for when you have to recharge spells/day. Poor specialization/rolls/saves influence gameplay to a far greater extent (very hard to come back when you're behind). Flying enemies can really be the bane of your existence.
Start throwing APL+6 encounters at the A-team, and you will start seeing real teamwork.
What makes you think that the D-team can do teamwork and tactics any more than an A-team can. The only reason I can think of why the A-team doesn't do teamwork is because the game is easy enough that they can get away with it. Not that an easy game is surprising. They are the A-team. Bump up the challenge rating, and the A-team will likely start working like a well oiled machine, while the D-team collapses under it's own inflexibility.
Think I'm going to put my money where my mouth is and actually run the "Best of Class D" team through a Paizo module. Make it The Witchwar Legacy; a 17th level adventure that pits you against one of the daughters of Baba Yaga should be an acceptable test to see if this group can handle content where magic is king.
...I'm admittedly expecting this to fail but dog gonnit I am too in love with martials not to make an attempt at it. Once I've got the four character sheets written up and the game ready this will be its own thread.
Now the question is if using an Eldritch Guardian Fighter with a faerie dragon familiar counts as cheating.
Are you maxing UMD and loading up your familiar with scrolls and wands.
If so, then I would be tempted to say yes. Beating these sorts of challenges through heavy UMD use is basically saying "I am not a caster, but I will fake it till I make it, because being a martial just won't cut it". Needing to have a vastly inferior version of a "better" class around in order to get by isn't a swimming recommendation for the D-team.
The Faerie Dragon has casting as a 3rd level sorcerer, so it can use those magic items without a UMD check. On one hand, it basically functions as the Fighter getting a buff bot as a class feature, but on the other hand part of the challenge is to get by without the sorc/wiz spell list.
The faerie dragon still needs to make caster level checks on scrolls with CL>3. UMD gets around this, and lets the faerie dragon be a ghetto A-team all on it's own outside combat with a big pile of utility scrolls picked from all the caster lists.
This is depressing. How does it go? In the land of the mundane, the UMD user is king? I have to admit though, the image of the MVP of a party being the fighter's pet magical butterfly lizard is hilarious.
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GM Fiat only comes in if the GM says so, and the GM can likewise say to the black market guy 'that item simply is not available' in the same exact way, and be completely blase about it.
Hmmm. You may want to read how Black Market Connections actually works.
The entire point of the talent is that it bypasses the normal rules for magic item availability.
If the GM's going to declare "your talent doesn't work in the way it's explicitly supposed to" then he should probably be doing the rogue player the favor of saying "you shouldn't take that because I don't like it and I'm not going to allow it to work."
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Why is the A-Team "necessary" for an open ended campaign with lots of world building?
The best thing about a sandbox style game is that it naturally tailors itself to the characters that exist-- the supposed "A Team" would end up facing different challenges than the supposed "D Team", but in a sandbox they would both naturally be facing appropriate challenges and regardless of which group you had everyone would be having fun.
Perhaps we have different definitions of open ended and sandbox.
To me, sandbox says there's no overarching story and the game is mostly about the PC's and what they choose to do over a series of smaller adventures.
Open ended simply means there's an overarching story, but it's pretty massive in scale and there are many ways to approach it.
Either way, the D-team is pretty limited in what narrative effect it can have. The GM can throw the right sort of encounters at them that will effectively challenge them without stalling them, but it will become repetitive. None of those classes have the story-changing power of a high level wizard. The D-team will overcome the hell out of just about any sort of combat. But once the goals become more esoteric, it becomes more difficult. (Although the Bard, and to a lesser extent the Paladin, will own Social challenges.)
But in the instance the OP described - go here, kill Orcs - the D-team is super equipped to handle it.
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GM Fiat only comes in if the GM says so, and the GM can likewise say to the black market guy 'that item simply is not available' in the same exact way, and be completely blase about it.Hmmm. You may want to read how Black Market Connections actually works.
The entire point of the talent is that it bypasses the normal rules for magic item availability.
If the GM's going to declare "your talent doesn't work in the way it's explicitly supposed to" then he should probably be doing the rogue player the favor of saying "you shouldn't take that because I don't like it and I'm not going to allow it to work."
Exactly. Aelryinth has to have the GM twist and mangle the game into something that it isn't for this point to stand. There is nothing that says you can casually commission any item you want and frankly I've never played nor GMed a game where you could. Since artisans are probably already backed up on orders for low level shwag and receive the exact same profit for crafting low level items as they do high level items (500 gp / day), there's no just pulling one aside and going "Hey, I'd like a holy avenger and a ring of evasion please".
Further, the rogue talent in question is actually a pretty cool ability. It's not as good as actually crafting the items but it's really awesome for a party without crafters in it as it gives you access to high level magic gear that you can buy after selling off the wagon load of +1 ogre hooks you've been carrying around.
A Barbarian can pick up Greater Elemental Blood (Electricity) to gain a fly speed and a Ranger can use a Roc animal companion to fly. The other two are going to need items to compensate, but the group isn't entirely up a creek.Sure, in combat they can do well.
The problem is that, as low tier classes, they really cant... DO MUCH other than swing a sword... Oh need to get somewhere in a hurry? Without Deus Ex Machina suddenly showing up yours kinda screwed. Need to traverse a trecherous chasm? I hope you all bought potions of fly... Things like that... they really cant do much about.
Paladin has access to flying spells, and I think could potentially have a Celestial mount that gains flying? Maybe.
Slayer, yeah, needs gear.
==Aelryinth
GM Fiat only comes in if the GM says so, and the GM can likewise say to the black market guy 'that item simply is not available' in the same exact way, and be completely blase about it.Hmmm. You may want to read how Black Market Connections actually works.
The entire point of the talent is that it bypasses the normal rules for magic item availability.
If the GM's going to declare "your talent doesn't work in the way it's explicitly supposed to" then he should probably be doing the rogue player the favor of saying "you shouldn't take that because I don't like it and I'm not going to allow it to work."
Well, since you're already house-ruling that people won't make items for you, it's hardly a stretch to house rule that specific magic item X isn't available, despite the purchase limit being so high. There simply aren't any...if there were, you could sure buy it!
i.e. you're already telling people you can't buy something that's assumed in the core rules. It's hardly a stretch to say you can't buy it immediately, either. House rules FTW and GM Fiat to cover a hole in your explanations!
Seriously, most magic item shops might sell a magic item a week or a month, because the price level is so high. Most of them are probably skimping by on 1st level potions and scrolls since that's all most people can afford to buy.
Along comes adventurer X willing to pay you 100,000 gp and assure you 50k of profit and max gold/workday for 50 days?! That's like going into a Lamborghini dealer with a showroom and wanting to buy a custom tailor-made model, and them turning you down because they only sell off the floor models. "Sorry, we don't have anything in canary yellow with white interior. Would you like the red with black interior? If not, take your million dollars to the door, please!"
Eesh. Any crafter worth his salt would LEAP at the chance to be guaranteed that much profit. Gold coins would be rolling up in their eyes, and squirting out their ears as they desperately tried not to wriggle in gleeful anticipation of making FIFTY THOUSAND GOLD - GUARANTEED! Those guys wanting potions can take a hike while I make some REAL MONEY. The reason they make so much money is because they are probably lucky to get that kind of a commission once in a lifetime!
So, no, that explanation doesn't hold water. Money talks, and that much money SCREAMS for attention! "Butros Fine Cars wouldn't take your money?! That scoundrel, that fiend! My friend, I can assure you of a canary yellow model with white interior with only a minor delay of two months for delivery! Are there any other custom features you'd like on your own hand-made custom personal vehicle? Simply sign here and put down your deposit and let us do business!"
Or you can go down to Shifty Steve in the Purloined Taps and see if there's any canary yellow Lamborghinis with white interiors that might have fallen off a boat somewhere available for sale in just 1-2 days, no questions asked, no refunds.
But there's no way you're going to be able to tell me that if I plop 100k in gold down on the table, that the merchant involved isn't going to find someone to fulfill my commission and take his cut of the profits, he'll move heaven and earth to make it happen. That's what merchants DO. He'll probably have to avoid wetting himself, and watch the drooling. I mean, seriously...it's okay to buy 16k gp of stuff and guarantee him 8k of profit, but it's not okay for him to arrange 100k worth of stuff and 50k of profit?
When it's assumed by the book that buying and selling magic items is basically easy? The 16k limit is only there for buying stuff immediately...there's no limit on commissionable items quoted in the rules! If you're willing to pay, someone is willing to take your money.
===Aelryinth
The faerie dragon still needs to make caster level checks on scrolls with CL>3. UMD gets around this, and lets the faerie dragon be a ghetto A-team all on it's own outside combat with a big pile of utility scrolls picked from all the caster lists.
This is depressing. How does it go? In the land of the mundane, the UMD user is king? I have to admit though, the image of the MVP of a party being the fighter's pet magical butterfly lizard is hilarious.
I agree with you, so I'm going to stick with my original plan and make the team's "caster" a Sensei/Ki Mystic/Qinggong Monk. Throw in Racial Heritage (Gnome) for Bewildering Koan and now our buffer can potentially keep an enemy daze locked forever.
trio of bards would likely be a B team. Full power 6-casters? Topped off with skills, and buffs to let them work full melee? yeah.
==Aelrynth
Well, since you're already house-ruling that people won't make items for you, it's hardly a stretch to house rule that specific magic item X isn't available, despite the purchase limit being so high. There simply aren't any...if there were, you could sure buy it!
Citation needed. There is no rule that says people will. This is something that falls under category of story questing and such. If you want to go try to find someone willing that's fine, but there is no way of counting on that unless it's just the fiat of your GM. There is no house ruling that away because it wasn't there to begin with.
You keep basing your argument on a lie. Some of us are just calling you on it.
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And just for fun, there actually are rules for wizards wandering into a town and paying for other wizards to let them copy their spellbooks. There is nothing however for commissioning magic items, and if it were such a common certainty that was a standard part of the rules I'm pretty sure it would be in the core rulebook. It isn't.
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Not really, the A-team still just spams save or suck until they win, and the summoner(s) just spam whatever to buy time until things fail their save. The difference between A-team vs APL and A-team vs APL+6 is that at APL+6 you might have to cast more than one save or die spell because things make their saves. The rest is static.Start throwing APL+6 encounters at the A-team, and you will start seeing real teamwork.
What makes you think that the D-team can do teamwork and tactics any more than an A-team can. The only reason I can think of why the A-team doesn't do teamwork is because the game is easy enough that they can get away with it. Not that an easy game is surprising. They are the A-team. Bump up the challenge rating, and the A-team will likely start working like a well oiled machine, while the D-team collapses under it's own inflexibility.
Seriously, what level are you thinking of here?
There is no way a party is going to be able to spam SoD or even SoL spells until they are fairly high level. Not unless they don't mind running out of spells 1/3 of the way into a day.
What you just described is a nova tactic, and is horrifically inefficient compared to using BFC instead. It would be great if you are expecting a single CR+8 encounter, because you need to wreak the encounter as hard as possible as quickly as possible, but if you intend to pace yourself and do 4 encounters you have to aim for 2 of your top level spells each encounter from the entire party. Add on 2-3 of the level below that, and you are only looking at around 4-5 heavy hitting spells per encounter. If there are non-combat encounters between this you should be aiming for even less so that you have spare slots to devote to utility.
Given that the usual time for powerful spells is ASAP, you would be expected to have the encounter shut down or close to after the first round. The rest of your time will be spent cleaning up by casting minor stuff and hitting things (if your class can do that). You literally do not have enough spells to do anything else in most cases without running out and dying horribly.
There is a lot of factor to account into.
I vote for the D team overall.
They have a paladin that his immune to most debilitating attack and has insane saves, he can even bypass DR with his smite evil and can heal himself in combat with a swift action, on top of that he has auras going on helping most of the party. He get most of that is at level 4.
shield and board this guy can tank like a god.
The fighter is one of the most versatile combat class in the whole system, for all we know this one has taken a lot of specialization with firearms and has outright more feats than a gunsligner at level 4. You have in your hands one of the most fearsome ranged character ever made in your hands.
The ranger could be built into 2 handed weapon specialist, can use wands of CLW, got an animal companion to help the paladin flank and defend the bard.
The bard with the detective archetype can be the party face, trapfinder, information gatherer, he help keep the party initiative up. He can also specialize himself using whips for combat maneuvers. He has a lot of buff spells, can heal and UMDs with relative ease with the right setup.
Well, since you're already house-ruling that people won't make items for you, it's hardly a stretch to house rule that specific magic item X isn't available, despite the purchase limit being so high. There simply aren't any...if there were, you could sure buy it!Citation needed. There is no rule that says people will. This is something that falls under category of story questing and such. If you want to go try to find someone willing that's fine, but there is no way of counting on that unless it's just the fiat of your GM. There is no house ruling that away because it wasn't there to begin with.
You keep basing your argument on a lie. Some of us are just calling you on it.
Now, now, name calling and insults mean you've lost the argument.
The rules assume you can go into a town and buy what you like up to the GP purchase limits.
The per-item limit is what is available NOW. That's why its there.
It's not an arbitrary limit saying you can't buy anything above that figure. That's not how it's defined. That's what the "CITY LIMIT" is. The only reason the city limit exists is to let people know that their custom +10 doohickey of wonder is not immediately available, they have to commission it, and even then they can only commission so much.
This is also the problem with Black Market Connections. Just because your wealth limit popped up a notch doesn't mean the item is available. When you look at Shifty Sam and say "I want a +1 Holy Axiomatic Thundering Merciful Guarding Defender Greyflame Returning Shortspear, give!" the DM is perfectly within his rights to say not only has nothing like that been stolen in the past 50 years (what, what do you think Black Market Connections actually means?), but probably nothing like that has ever been made, ever!
So, Black Market Connections isn't the Band-Aid for the custom gear problem, either. And at higher levels, huge portions of it are basically custom gear. Can you imagine the look on your fence's face when you tell him you want a set of +3/+7 Nunchakus? And the rules say "right now?"
So, your role-playing "Eh, I don't want your money and a huge payday, go bother someone else, I'm happy making 20 gp a week putting potions together" is all house rule, and commissioning items up to the city limit is definitely a part of the purchase rules. That's why there is a clear difference between the single item 'now' limit, and the total purchase power.
Not being able to commission stuff is the house rule. You're just messing with the core buying assumptions, no different then any GM who doesn't like a magic mart.
And I don't need 'citation needed.' I can turn that argument back around on you, demanding you point out the rule where crafters refuse your business, because you're the one that made it a thing, Ashiel. You're basically arguing that crafters will refuse to take your money and get a huge payday, which flies completely in the face of common sense, and even the rules for running a magic shop (magic shops don't average any more money a day then any other business, by the rules!).
Seriously, I'm going to walk up to this guy who can make or order magic items, and blow his sales figure for the entire year, and you're telling me "Nope, the rules don't allow you to buy anything that is not currently in stock, and even then only below number X, unless you're dealing with stolen goods."
Which is nowhere in evidence, flies completely against the purchase rules as they stand, and totally smacks of GM Fiat.
==Aelryinth
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Now, now, name calling and insults mean you've lost the argument.
I don't think that means what you think it means.
The rules assume you can go into a town and buy what you like up to the GP purchase limits.The per-item limit is what is available NOW. That's why its there.
It's not an arbitrary limit saying you can't buy anything above that figure. That's not how it's defined. That's what the "CITY LIMIT" is. The only reason the city limit exists is to let people know that their custom +10 doohickey of wonder is not immediately available, they have to commission it, and even then they can only commission so much.
This is also the problem with Black Market Connections. Just because your wealth limit popped up a notch doesn't mean the item is available. When you look at Shifty Sam and say "I want a +1 Holy Axiomatic Thundering Merciful Guarding Defender Greyflame Returning Shortspear, give!" the DM is perfectly within his rights to say not only has nothing like that been stolen in the past 50 years (what, what do you think Black Market Connections actually means?), but probably nothing like that has ever been made, ever!
You might want to read the rules. GM fiat aside, if it falls below the GP limit, there is a 75% you can find what you're looking for in the community.
Meanwhile, I'm still waiting on a citation for your claim. It seems like, again, you are grasping at straws and describing a game that is not the one we're talking about.
I'm still waiting at a citation for yours that you can't commission items up to the limit of the city if something is not immediately available. And that you "must" roleplay the thing out and bow to GM fiat, and not just use the general purchase rules with an appropriate time delay to get what you want, limited by the GP value of the city.
Get back to me on that. Because your rule is basically saying nobody can get items over 16k anywhere, which means only people with Black Market Connections who can get stolen stuff from Axiom will ever have pricey items, and that items above 16k basically shouldn't exist.
I'm not refuting the 75% chance of the 16k limit at all. That's a different football field. I'm not playing on that one, the game is already over there, why are you trying to make it seem like I'm trying to change the score? You're making a Straw Man argument.
And yeah, calling me a liar when I'm not is definitely an insult. So, I don't think you know what it means to insult people, since you do it so freely whenever someone disagrees with you.
==Aelryinth
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Meanwhile, I'm still waiting on a citation for your claim.
I'm still waiting at a citation for yours that you can't commission items up to the limit of the city if something is not immediately available.
So basically, this whole argument boils down to another case of "The rules don't say you can" vs "The rules don't say you can't."
Good luck with that.
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If I may put my $0.02 in, as a dm myself I feel that you are both kind of right.
Ashiel is right about black market connections. Think of it like this, yes the city you are in may not have the +10 whatsit, but someone somewhere knows of either someone who can craft it for you or someone who has one. The black market extends beyond the city limits and could in fact span countries. Nothing about that talent says it has to be a stolen item, it simply increases the amount of items for sale.
Aelryinth's argument is a little more tricky since his argument, while not written in stone, requires common sense. Yes there is a base limit and yes there are random items for sale, however who makes those items? Obviously merchants with the required skills and feats, in fact you can see the base level of spell casting available on table settlement statistics here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/settlements. If your DM is half decent and/or has any basic knowledge of store management or economics they should be able to put two and two together and say "Hey, people here can craft items with a caster level of ____. Someone could probably get an item commissioned." Don't agree with me? What about getting your sword enchanted? That requires craft magic arms and armor. Yes you can go and enchant your normal sword, but that same person is also qualified to create new enchanted weapons. So what if the settlement doesn't have a +1 keen scimitar on the market right now, the fact that it has a +1 returning dagger AND you can get a +1 scimitar enchanted proves that someone has the capabilities to craft it for you.
Even still, it comes down to your gm. The gm is the final arbiter of anything in their world. If you come to my game and argue RAW and what you are trying to use is broken or overpowered I will probably say nope. Nothing you can do about that, and if you don't like it then find another game. Likewise if you come to me with an idea for a new spell, a unique weapon, or a custom race and I find it to be acceptable I will integrate it into my game. The fact is unless you are playing PFS negating GM fiat is pointless since EVERY gm has fiat.
BTW, thank you both for your cross discussion. You guys are like 25% of the posts and a big reason why this thread is still going strong.