Eldritch Heritage Draconic for a sorcerer to become a Dragon Disicple

[TPK]

Will the Eldritch Heritage feat meet the requirements to become a Dragon Disciple. For those of you looking at me like I am just crazy here is the basic mechanical premise...

Toppling spell feat and STRENGTH from every option available...

Crossblooded Goblin/Orc blooded with the magic missile Magical Lineage trait to add toppling spell for free and later add things like Intensify spell and Quicken spell to get multiple trip attempts on a level 1 spell. Wield a Long spear for AOO, combat reflexes and the trip feat tree. Greater Trip will allow all tripped opponents to get a smack from the other PCs, even if this is done by spell. I am buying the minotaur Eldritch Heritage as well so between Orc and Minotaur blood lines and Dragon Disciple the PC is getting strength and constitution bonuses from everywhere. I will trip on every AOO and if someone ever gets to close combat I drop my long spear and use the claws, bite and gore from the various level 1 abilities from all the different bloodlines.

So, am I crazy or is this genius?

[Korlos]

Monsters get better CMD faster than your trip check increases. On top of that, Intensify spell doesn't add more missiles to magic missile. How are you getting a third bloodline?

[Dragonchess Player]

Core Rulebook wrote:

If the character has sorcerer levels, he must have the draconic bloodline. If the character gains levels of sorcerer after taking this class, he must take the draconic bloodline.

(emphasis mine)

Ultimate Magic wrote:

You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline.

(emphasis mine)

The two are not the same.

[TPK]

Korlos wrote:

Monsters get better CMD faster than your trip check increases. On top of that, Intensify spell doesn't add more missiles to magic missile. How are you getting a third bloodline?

With toppling spell you get to use your caster level and spell casting stat to determine CMB as well as you can add the improved trip and greater trip bonuses to the check (greater trip makes it crazy cool to give AOO to other PCs). And, yes intensify will add additional magic missiles to the spell one past the max if 9th level. The 3rd blood line is through feats if the Eldritch Heritage feat allows for an additional bloodline (assuming ST approval because it is a grey area).

[Gisher]

As Dragonchess Player points out, the Eldritch Heritage feats do not grant you a bloodline. They only give you a few bloodline powers. So Eldritch Heritage (Draconic) will not meet the prerequisite for Dragon Disciple.

[TPK]

Gisher wrote:

As Dragonchess Player points out, the Eldritch Heritage feats do not grant you a bloodline. They only give you a few bloodline powers. So Eldritch Heritage (Draconic) will not meet the prerequisite for Dragon Disciple.

It can be done just as readily as a crossblooded dragon and orc. I was really just trying to get that extra +1 dam per die through the goblin blooded. I wonder if my DM would be OK with me doing a Force Dragon. I am certain I saw that in a 3rd party book somewhere. That would allow me an addition +1 dam per die on all force spells. Then I just buy minotaur eldritch heritage to get another strength boost.

[kestral287]

You have a lot of issues with that setup:

1. While it's only a problem for the original setup, you can't take Eldritch Heritage twice. Feats have to note that you can take them multiple times, otherwise the general rule is that they can only be grabbed once.

2. Minotaur is an Inherent Bonus to Strength, so is Orc. They don't stack. They also don't stack with Tomes/Wishes, incidentally.

3. Toppling Spell doesn't use your Str bonus for its Trip attempt. It's going to fall off fast and hard.

4. Intensified Spell can't be applied to Magic Missile. The feat only increases the damage dice cap, which Magic Missile does not have, and explicitly states that "no other variables of the spells are affected, and spells that inflict damage that is not modified by caster level are not affected by this feat".

Short of going Mythic or 3.5, you're stuck where you are on your number of Missiles.

[TPK]

kestral287 wrote:

You have a lot of issues with that setup:

1. While it's only a problem for the original setup, you can't take Eldritch Heritage twice. Feats have to note that you can take them multiple times, otherwise the general rule is that they can only be grabbed once.

Number 2 removed this concern.

kestral287 wrote:

2. Minotaur is an Inherent Bonus to Strength, so is Orc. They don't stack. They also don't stack with Tomes/Wishes, incidentally.

Thanks for pointing this out. I missed the stacking issue. And, I didn't realize the tomes and wishes issue as well. Good info!

kestral287 wrote:

3. Toppling Spell doesn't use your Str bonus for its Trip attempt. It's going to fall off fast and hard.

No, it would be based on my caster level and the Cha bonus plus the improved trip and greater trip feats if I can work them into the build which means it levels nicely. The reason I was aiming for the Str bonus was for AOO received when people close to hand to hand with the caster since I was wielding a long spear. And, when I pop claws, bite and gore if I was able to work out how to make that happen in the build which since the Str bonuses don't stack is probably not going to happen.

kestral287 wrote:

4. Intensified Spell can't be applied to Magic Missile. The feat only increases the damage dice cap, which Magic Missile does not have, and explicitly states that "no other variables of the spells are affected, and spells that inflict damage that is not modified by caster level are not affected by this feat".

Actually "For every two caster levels beyond 1st, you gain an additional missile—two at 3rd level, three at 5th, four at 7th, and the maximum of five missiles at 9th level or higher." That sounds like a die cap according to the PRD. So, intensify spell just lets it keep going for higher level play. But, if it doesn't all that did is remove intensify from the metmagic feats I would want. Can anyone confirm the Paizo ruling on this?

kestral287 wrote:

Short of going Mythic or 3.5, you're stuck where you are on your number of Missiles.

Thanks for your input. Love this community!

[Bandw2]

TPK wrote:

kestral287 wrote:

4. Intensified Spell can't be applied to Magic Missile. The feat only increases the damage dice cap, which Magic Missile does not have, and explicitly states that "no other variables of the spells are affected, and spells that inflict damage that is not modified by caster level are not affected by this feat".

Actually "For every two caster levels beyond 1st, you gain an additional missile—two at 3rd level, three at 5th, four at 7th, and the maximum of five missiles at 9th level or higher." That sounds like a die cap according to the PRD. So, intensify spell just lets it keep going for higher level play. But, if it doesn't all that did is remove intensify from the metmagic feats I would want. Can anyone confirm the Paizo ruling on this?

it's not because it makes additional missiles it doesn't actually increase the damage.

[kestral287]

On #4: "An additional missile" is not a dice cap. A dice cap is Fireball's "1D6 per caster level, maximum 10D6".

One of those is actually saying "this is your maximum number of dice". The other is saying "this is your maximum number of missiles". Thus Magic Missile falls squarely into the unaffected category-- that's the RAW.

On #3: level+Cha+4 isn't going to get you all that far, honestly. It'll work fine in the early game, but it'll fall off hard as CMDs go up. And that's even assuming you can keep up full caster levels through Dragon Disciple.

For an example, here's a scattering of CR10s' CMDs (picked at random: I didn't even know what half of these were):

Shield Archon: 30 vs. Trip (and can fly, and you can't trip anything in the air)
Cryohydra: 26; can't be tripped
Derakni: 44 vs. trip (and can fly)
Brachiosaurus: 44 vs. trip
Einherji: 30
Gargiya: 35; can't be tripped
Fire Giant: 31
Clay Golem: 30 (can't be Magic Missile'd)
Myrmecoleon: 32 vs. trip
Nue: 39 vs. trip

Again, these were picked at random. We'll ignore for a moment how many of these are immune to trip and just look at their numbers.

Being generous, and assuming you have a 24 Cha at level ten and drop a trait on Magical Knack for full caster levels, you have a CMB of 21. On an average die roll you'll be able to trip the Cryohydra, Einherji, Fire Giant, and Clay Golem. You can't possibly trip the Derakni or Brachiosaurus.

So: by level 10 you're effective against one creature in three with your Toppling Magic Missile. That's what I mean by it falling off.

Your straight trip attempts are actually worse. Assuming 28 Str and Sorc 5/Disciple 5, you have a CMB of 9 (Str)+5 (BAB)+4 (feats)=18. Even if we figure Sorc 6/DD 4 for that extra point of BAB, you're only at +19. Average roll can trip... the Cryohydra and that's it.

Tripping is an awesome low-level strategy but it scales miserably. There are a few classes that are good at it, like the Lore Warden Fighter, but once you get out of the low levels it just gets exponentially harder. That's really what Korlos meant.