Has there ever been a solid attempt at making a believable economy in pathfinder?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Has there ever been a solid attempt at making a believable economy in pathfinder? Though I understand the necessity of game balance the whole dissonance between player wealth, npc wealth, magic item cost and availability is something that frustrates me more then it probably should.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

it would be boring because the players would always be poor or rich


I have not heard of one.

I suspect it would actually be a quest for a "believable economy in a specific country in pathfinder".

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Decimus Drake wrote:
Has there ever been a solid attempt at making a believable economy in pathfinder? Though I understand the necessity of game balance the whole dissonance between player wealth, npc wealth, magic item cost and availability is something that frustrates me more then it probably should.

That's been an inherent issue since the first days of AD+D. There simply is no way of accomplishing what you want without massive changes in both the game assumptions and the world.

Perhaps it might help if you concentrate on the idea that the stories of Golarion are Heroic Fantasy, and that genre at best, gives lip service to Papers and Paychecks, and that much, only when it furthers plot.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

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It's a game, not an economic simulator. A 'realistic' economic engine would be one or more of

1) Still inaccurate
2) Pass the 'suspension of disbelief' buck somewhere else (like the Craft rules)
3) Require tedious levels of bookkeeping
4) Create excessive limits on adventure design, because all of a sudden you need to justify how many guards the evil baron can afford to pay, or how the town manages to afford the reward offered to the PCs for wiping out the Goblins, or who, exactly, manufactured those flasks of alchemists' fire the PCs keep buying.

Basically, any new rule should do something to make the game more fun. Now, depending on how much the existing rules bother you, an economic system might make the game more fun to you, by removing an un-fun element (continually losing your suspension of disbelief). But I think in most cases, shining a brighter light on the economics will make the situation worse, not better.

Or, to use a poor analogy, replacing a cardboard cutout of a house with a block of scaffolding in the shape of a house won't make it convincingly a house - it's just a lot more work to set up.


I believe to have a reasonable shot at this you would need to remove gold as a balancing mechanic entirely. Gold can help give more options to characters but not increase their power directly. This means making gold an unreasonable way to acquire magic items. automatic bonuses are a good start to this as are leveling magic items so that magic items are more rare.

As is wealth by level is nonlinear because four level 5 characters should not be able to pool their wealth to get the gear of one lv. 20 character for level balance reasons.

Without this change PC characters become so rich that they break the economy wherever they go causing massive inflation.

After that you might have a decent shot at it. I just assume 1 gp is $100 and assign thing's close to real world values as an off the cuff metric. Also decrease prices by 25% for local goods and increase by 25% to 50% for imported goods. Not perfect but a start.


There was a discussion on how one would develop a backdrop economy (or different types of economies for the players to interact with at different game tiers) back during the Alpha discussions.

High Level Economics in D&D

Wrecan summarizes how it might be implemented on the second page here

Kirthfinder takes some of what was discussed there and manages to make the game mechanics and magic item rules work alright for that simulation of the game world

Kirthfinder

Note that you need to request a copy of the latest version of Kirthfinder. The ones in the opening post are several years out of date.


I'm not sure you can have a believable economy in a world where some people can generate permanent wealth from thin air (such as Wall of Iron+Polymorph any object:iron to gold)


Eberron had a pretty believable economic balance with all of the magic being thrown around. And adventurers were treated kind of like tourists.


So the core issue here is that a minority of people control the primary means of production, leading to a world of very concentrated wealth. Those with the magic have all the power those without it are poor and can't really do anything about it. Sure occasionally one of them ends up becoming a sorcerer and rising to the ranks of the super rich but for the most part those in power simply grow in wealth and power, they influence governments, manipulate markets, and basically do whatever they want because they are super rich... ... ... can't think of any real world parallels there at all.


What is wrong with it?

I mean honestly, show your work behind your claims. I have.


Bardarok wrote:
I believe to have a reasonable shot at this you would need to remove gold as a balancing mechanic entirely. Gold can help give more options to characters but not increase their power directly.

This would be economically nonsensical.


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Abraham spalding wrote:

What is wrong with it?

I mean honestly, show your work behind your claims. I have.

Prices are constant. Supply and demand doesn't exist. All items cost twice the value of their raw materials. (Or is that 3 times for non-magic stuff? - whatever, fixed multiplier.) Bringing 10s of thousands of gold pieces into a village doesn't cause a price boom.

It's not an economy. It's a cost balance system for adventuring.


Abraham spalding wrote:
Bardarok wrote:
I believe to have a reasonable shot at this you would need to remove gold as a balancing mechanic entirely. Gold can help give more options to characters but not increase their power directly.
This would be economically nonsensical.

In an absolute sense yes. Though if you move towards that goal you could lower WBL and magic item availability which were the OP's concerns.

"Bardarok wrote:
Not perfect but a start


If economy was even slightly real all Goblinoids would go extinct in two years. They engage in no real economic activity except raiding and they tend to lose in those raids. They don't farm or herd animals in large number so how do they eat day to day? And they produce nothing to trade to those who do produce food.


Puna'chong wrote:
Eberron had a pretty believable economic balance with all of the magic being thrown around. And adventurers were treated kind of like tourists.

Eberron is also unique in that Goblinoids engage in trade and in farming. When I saw the picture of an Orc farmer in Eberron I became hooked on that world


I dont have a degree in economics but creating a real economic system that is accounting for everything would require several books as big as the CRB. I think a list of things that are willing to be handwaved away would make this much more plausible.
The economy as written is part of the game so to keep the game mostly playable the other rules would also have to be altered.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

If you can accept the Pathfinder ecology, you should be able to accept the economy.


Caedwyr wrote:

There was a discussion on how one would develop a backdrop economy (or different types of economies for the players to interact with at different game tiers) back during the Alpha discussions.

High Level Economics in D&D

Wrecan summarizes how it might be implemented on the second page here

Kirthfinder takes some of what was discussed there and manages to make the game mechanics and magic item rules work alright for that simulation of the game world

Kirthfinder

Note that you need to request a copy of the latest version of Kirthfinder. The ones in the opening post are several years out of date.

A fun reminder :). Sadly, I moved shortly after that and lost all my city statistics. Perhaps I will attempt it again and finally finish the calculations.

Maybe see what is different with some of the Unchained additions, though I have heard they break easily.


We need a deal between Abadar and Nethys first


Ross Byers wrote:
If you can accept the Pathfinder ecology, you should be able to accept the economy.

I don't have a degree in biology or zoology so I'm cool there. I do have a degree in economics though, so it's more difficult for me to look past the economic nonsense of the game.


Xexyz wrote:
Ross Byers wrote:
If you can accept the Pathfinder ecology, you should be able to accept the economy.
I don't have a degree in biology or zoology so I'm cool there. I do have a degree in economics though, so it's more difficult for me to look past the economic nonsense of the game.

So is it th degree or the knowledge that is giving you problems?

Also how much of the game are you willing to rewrite?


wraithstrike wrote:

So is it th degree or the knowledge that is giving you problems?

Also how much of the game are you willing to rewrite?

I'll do a little. I'll adjust prices based on the area the PCs are in. I try not to think about the rest because it'll just make my brain hurt.


Caedwyr wrote:

There was a discussion on how one would develop a backdrop economy (or different types of economies for the players to interact with at different game tiers) back during the Alpha discussions.

High Level Economics in D&D

Wrecan summarizes how it might be implemented on the second page here

Kirthfinder takes some of what was discussed there and manages to make the game mechanics and magic item rules work alright for that simulation of the game world

Kirthfinder

Note that you need to request a copy of the latest version of Kirthfinder. The ones in the opening post are several years out of date.

I think most of the wish economy should be revised. While it's true you can still b+#*#slap efreets in order to spam free wishes, the wish (and miracle) spell itself can no longer generate items up to 15000gp.

Also many infamous creation spells like wall of iron have been changed by explicitly saying that the quality of the wall itself makes it unworkable and unsellable.

Still you can print money with fabricate.


Xexyz wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

So is it th degree or the knowledge that is giving you problems?

Also how much of the game are you willing to rewrite?
I'll do a little. I'll adjust prices based on the area the PCs are in. I try not to think about the rest because it'll just make my brain hurt.

Ok, I see. Most Fantasy settings assume a global economy. That is why every nation does not print its own money, and everything is always the same price. I guess you could look at certain nations and guess at what they might import/export. Well actually I don't think most settings even look at that.


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Meh, I take the complaint with a huge grain of salt until he writes the rules to do the same for the real world. People have been trying that for literal centuries, with at best (and generously at that) mixed success.


I don't know about Golarian, but an attempt at emulating feudal Japanese economics is being put in place for the Rite Publishing Kaidan setting of Japanese horror (PFRPG). Like feudal Japan, Kaidan has a rice based economy, although there is a GP conversion table for the purchase of items, coinage is measured in amounts of rice. All social castes are expected to pay an annual 45% tax rate which forces the poor to become even poorer and the empire immensely wealthy. Also like Japan, however, Kaidan is both gold and metal poor, with lower quality metals than in other regions of the world. The nobility and samurai social castes possess the bulk of the nation's wealth, though the commoners aren't peasants as they own the land they work.

Contrarily, the lowest social caste possesses large amounts of wealth due to monopolies on certain jobs considered taboo by the rest of the population, like the touching of dead flesh, which not only includes grave diggers, but butchers, surgical physicians and leather workers as well (meaning crafters of saddle and armors are only members of that lowest social caste, the Eta.) Of course gambling, prostitution, and the black market is controlled by the Yakuza who are also members of this caste, and they too are immensely wealthy.

Because the nobility controls the majority of wealth in Kaidan, and the fact that the entire nobility is undead, means that PCs aren't nobility and will never tip the economic scales in the realm due to adventure profits.

Note: whichever social caste your PC belongs limits what one can legally own and possess, though most illegally possess things just to survive in Kaidan. Weapons and magic items are practically controlled substances. Most artificers of magic items are breaking the law - and Kaidan can certainly be described as a police state.

Kaidan is very different than your typical Pathfinder economies.


I have, and it seems to work marginally well. I would be interested in anyone's opinion.

All standard gear costs the same as the CRB.
All magic items cost 1/10th the listed cost
All items based on a service (lodging, spellcasting, food, masterwork item) cost 10x the listed cost.
All characters get an income per month using a modified version of the PFS day job table. (Increase DC by 5 [or 10, we are also working with a modified skill system so you may play with how much you raise the DC here] multiply gp payout by 10)
From that remove the lifestyle cost of the character. The PC's add that to their inventory for every month of gametime. Also, lifestyle cost is lifestyle cost, no shenanigans with "I have 2 jobs or Bob gives me fish on the side so I don't have to pay. The check represents the total combined output of effort in earning money and mitigating costs, then you subtract lifestyle.
That amount is also the "purse" money that an NPC may have on them.
I also reduce all treasure hoards by 1/10th (of coins and jewels) and remove big six items.

I also have an inherent system for replacing the big 6. (Including a change to what "masterwork" means and a new quality category called "good.")

I find that this allows the PC's to have a good amount of wealth to spend on consumable items and gadget type items but not so much to be taking over the world. It also means that when they roll into a major city they don't disrupt the economy with their hoard dump.

This system also puts a lot more cash flow into the economy. So it makes more sense that a random low level NPC may have a minor magic item.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Entryhazard wrote:
We need a deal between Abadar and Nethys first

Every time Abadar gets Nethys to sit at a table, things go swimmingly for awhile, and then Nethys switches to his psychotic state, and burns all the papers AND the table.

It just doesn't work.

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