Shardra Visionary question


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion

Liberty's Edge

I got into a discussion with a member of my group about picking characters for WotR - and he liked Shardra for a power that I don't think made sense.

So now I'm wondering who is right on the power.

Shardra's Visionary role wrote:

__ When you (__ or a character at your location) attempt(s) a check to defeat a barrier (__ or close a location), you may use your knowledge skill instead of the listed skill.

He asserted that that meant that if you take the "__ or a character at your location" option, that Shardra takes over the action and Shardra rolls the defeat/close check using her Knowledge.

I had a problem with this as it seems to break the rule that "you cannot take someone else's turn".

The counterpoint he gave is that other similar powers were stated as "When you (or a character at your location)..., THAT character may use THEIR ..." -- and since this was a different phrasing, that the power clearly allows Shardra to make the check rather than the 'active character' (similar to defeating a bane with multiple checks).

We came up with three possible interpretations - and I'd like to know which is correct/intended.

1. This is an editing mistake, and should be phrased as "that character can use their knowledge skill"
2. That Shardra does indeed "make the check" instead of the acting character
3. That the intent is that the "acting character" may use Shardra's knowledge skill (Wisdom + 2) to make the check using the acting character's Wisdom die.


Good one. I have no obvious answer. Normaly Hawk will have one in the next 3 minutes. Else you enter the weekly contest for the best can o worms.


Hmm... Yeah, there does seem to perhaps be something missing there. I'd guess that it is #1, but I really couldn't say for sure. I agree that it would go against taking someone's turn for them. We've seen other powers that essentially accomplish taking over the encounter for someone else, but they always make that very clear (usually by having letting you choose a character at your location to evade the encounter and then let you encounter it). So, even if the the intent is #2, it would probably spell out the fact that you can take the check for them.


Yes, it seems another case where the "you" isn't clear.

My bet is it should have been something like :

__ When you (__ or a character at your location) attempt(s) a check to defeat a barrier (__ or close a location), THE CHARACTER ATTEMPTING THE CHECK may use your knowledge skill instead of the listed skill.

Would make more sense thematically (Shardra is here to help, so her level in knowledge helps beat the check).


I would be careful about placing to much emphasis on the 'rule' that "you cannot take someone else's turn." After all, Alain and his fancy horse can steal other people's turn right and left, and don't even get me started on the dastardly Ranzak. The issue isn't whether or not one player can take another player's turn, some powers clearly allow it. The issue is that in all of the previous cases it specifically shifts who is 'encountering' the card from one play to another. The problem with Shardra isn't that she takes someone else turn, if she did it would make things simply. It's the fuzzy language of using 'your' knowledge skill.

I would say that the intent is probably #2, if only because its a huge editing error if what they meant is #1. If they intended #1, not only are they missing language, bu the second check box is in completely wrong place, since it needs to be appended at the end of power to give the reader any hope of interpreting it properly.

Hopefully we can get Mike or Vic to give a clarfication on it soon.


I just came across this too and had the same inkling that it let Shardra make the check for the current player.

Which goes against the theme that no one can succeed for you.

I hope this gets an answer. There's a lot of interesting items on Shardra's visionary, especially that she can turn characters around her into divine casters. *Kwazy*


Warning, there is a major difference between :
A- You can use someone else skill (or die) to attempt your check
and
B- Someone else can attempt the check for you

Let's same I'm the character X who initially has to do a check and Shardra is at my location.
In the case A I can play allies or items that refer to "for YOUR check" even if I'm using Shardra skill because I'm still the one attempting the check (I just borrowed the knowledge, I didn't ask Shardra to manage the issue). In the case B I cannot because it became Shardra's check.

My understanding for Shardra's power is it cannot be B because it can never be B per the main "no one can attempt a check for you" rule. Thus I play/recommand (until Mike or Vic jump in) A.
Thus my above proposition of rewording.


Looks like the current can 'o worms winner....


I agree, we are on Friday afternoon in Paris so we have a winner!

Mike, Vic... need your advice on this one (even an unofficial one).

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

You certainly can't make other people's checks for them. Final wording still to come, but the intent is that if you pick another character, he uses *his* Knowledge skill.


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Maybe something along the lines of: "When you attempt (□ or another character at your location attempts) to defeat a barrier that has the Skirmish or the Task trait, that character may use her Diplomacy skill in place of any listed skill for the check."

From the card of a certain smooth talking Bard... ;)


I'm trying to figure out how a power like that would be useful enough to take, especially as a role card feat. The target character:

1. Must be at your location;
2. And not have a better option in the situation;
3. And have the skill permitted by the feat (or have cards to compensate for not having the skill);
4. And not already have the substitution.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

We'd already discussed that. Chad said:

"I think it's ok, because it's an option inside an already strong feat, and it's not the only option. Also, she has ways to make those characters better at Knowledge if she wants. It is definitely situational by party make up, but I don't mind those on feats inside role-feats, especially on a help-focused character."


Ezren would appreciate being with a Shardra with this power. Or Eldritch Savant Enora.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Ashram316 wrote:

Maybe something along the lines of: "When you attempt (□ or another character at your location attempts) to defeat a barrier that has the Skirmish or the Task trait, that character may use her Diplomacy skill in place of any listed skill for the check."

From the card of a certain smooth talking Bard... ;)

I'll be honest, I'm never been thrilled about the fact that when you take out the feats, Siwar refers to you in both 2nd and 3rd person. But it *is* way better than what Shardra says now.

We are contemplating something a bit more radical:

□ When you attempt a check to defeat a barrier (□ or close a location), you may use your Knowledge skill instead of the listed skill. (□ Characters at your location gain this power.)


That wording is so much better, Vic.


Yeah. The strange pronouns in Siwar (and Jirelle's) feats never bothered me so bad I couldn't understand the power, but that seems like the most straightforward option yet.

Shardra's as it is now, I would've assumed it meant she was loaning her skills to that character.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Anybody see any "gotchas" hiding in "gain this power"?


Possibly

"Characters gain this power while at your location"?

Not sure if there is a ruling that makes that unnecessary


"Gain" is usually used to denote something persistently (or permanently) obtained, and someone could argue on those lines.

*Characters at your location may use this power, using their Knowledge skill for the check.


What Onesiphorus said, you need to limit it to only why they are at your location. Without that, I might ask:

1. Gain it forever?
2. Gain it as long as I'm at you location at some point during the scenario?
3. Gain it as long as I start my turn at your location?

I was just thinking about Potion of Heroism tonight (when my Damiel acquired it in Skull and Shackles). I noticed I could play it only someone while they were at my location at the start of their turn and then they could move during their move step and still reap all the benefits. With Shardra' you really want to close that loop. And I think what Onesiphorus suggests does that.

If you didn't want to insert "while at your location" you could probably get the same thing across by changing "gain" to "use" but that might cause the same confusion over whose Knowledge skill they get to use.

Sovereign Court

I think just changing "gain" to "have" works.


I was hoping it was using her knowledge so it could trigger the examine ability, too strong?


Yes I would vote for both the "have" and the "while" options. While not 100% necessary they ensure full understanding for a real small price.


If a character is unable to use her powers due to some exotic encounter, should she be prevented from using the Knowledge skill to defeat a barrier or close the location? (Such a lockdown on either character would deny the power to Shardra's friend.)

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

You're right that I need to limit the duration, but "gain" is the correct word for giving a character a power. See, oh, nearly any character card ever.


Agreed, so a subtle combination of 'gain' and 'while' should do by a more English-native than me.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Added Shardra's Visionary role and Siwar's Manipulator role to FAQ.

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