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Also, as I keep getting misquoted, I have never once mentioned "center" or "middle" of squares. That's not how Pathfinder determines distance. When moving along a grid, you move from square to square. Where you're at in that square is irrelevant. This same line of thinking destroys discussion about reach combat. "Yeah, I have a reach weapon, but I'll just stand at the back of my 5ft square so I can hit him."
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It's interesting to read what people think is "simple and straightforward".
I believe jumping 5ft and landing in your adjacent square is simple and straightforward. Just like walking 5ft.
Others believe that jumping 5ft and landing two squares away is simple and straightforward.
One of these interpretations seems strongly simpler than the other.
You're stuck on squares. You say you need a dc 10 to clear a 5 foot gap. The rules clearly say its 5.
The only contradiction there is if you're stuck in a square paradigm where you CAN"T leap from one corner to another. Think outside the box.
If this has to go on any longer (I didn't think it could after I found the chart) it should probably go to the rules forum.
The chart you quoted reinforces the need to jump extra. If you jump 5ft you only moved 5ft which puts you in the pit. If you jump 10ft you moved 10ft which clears a 5ft pit.
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So, how about them Take 10 rules?
I really like this thread for the first 70 or so posts but now it has become a rules discussion on jumping across pits.
In the beginning it was really interesting to hear about other people's opinion on the take 10 rules as well as the take 20 rules but I've mostly checked out for jumping over pits.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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It's a 15' thing. A DC is given for a 15' jump. It seems pretty obvious that's the DC for making a 15' jump.And yet, how many feet are you actually moving?
20ft.
Why are you jumping from 2.5 feet before the pit starts, and requiring that you land 2.5 feet past the edge to keep from falling in?
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I have been saying this since the days of v3.5, as long as we continue to use both analog (feet) and digital (squares) distance interchangeably to describe the game mechanics, there will always be times when one or the other (or both) fail to adequately resolve the issue at hand. The only solution to eliminate the conflict is to either switch to strictly analog, like a miniatures wargame using tape measures to determine distances, or we go digital, eliminating all traditional references to distance and use the "square" as the base unit of measure. YMMV
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It's a 15' thing. A DC is given for a 15' jump. It seems pretty obvious that's the DC for making a 15' jump.And yet, how many feet are you actually moving?
20ft.
Which only matters if you don't have 20ft of movement to use. Or are you saying I can't take that 5ft of movement after making a 15 on my Acrobatics?
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I'll ask explicitly: If you were GMing and a 15' gap came up, would you tell me the DC for jumping it?
Or would you make me look up the rules and calculate it (simple as they are:) and hope I understood them the same way you did?
I correct people on this all the time, whether I'm GMing or playing. Reading this thread and seeing people getting it wrong is what prompted me to post.
For me, it's simple. How many squares are you moving? 4? So, 20ft? Then the DC to jump that 20ft is found in the CRB. It's DC 20.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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I'll ask explicitly: If you were GMing and a 15' gap came up, would you tell me the DC for jumping it?
Or would you make me look up the rules and calculate it (simple as they are:) and hope I understood them the same way you did?
I correct people on this all the time, whether I'm GMing or playing. Reading this thread and seeing people getting it wrong is what prompted me to post.
For me, it's simple. How many squares are you moving? 4? So, 20ft? Then the DC to jump that 20ft is found in the CRB. It's DC 20.
Absolutely, you need 20 feet of movement. But only 15 of that is pit, so that's how much you need to be in the air for.
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The chart you quoted reinforces the need to jump extra. If you jump 5ft you only moved 5ft which puts you in the pit. If you jump 10ft you moved 10ft which clears a 5ft pit.....No.
... YES!
he base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed (if horizontal)
If you make a 5ft jump you land in the square next you you. If you want to clear the square next to you and land in the next square you're jumping 10ft, thus DC 10.
Because like it or not, your movement is in squares not feet. D20 and it's descended games are tatical wargames. This is why you have rules text that says that speed increases of less than 5 feet are treated as no increase at all.
Descended from tactical wargames, yes, but ones that weren't played on a grid. They were played on a tabletop with distances measured by rulers and tape measures and didn't have to conform to a grid.
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Also, as I keep getting misquoted, I have never once mentioned "center" or "middle" of squares. That's not how Pathfinder determines distance. When moving along a grid, you move from square to square. Where you're at in that square is irrelevant. This same line of thinking destroys discussion about reach combat. "Yeah, I have a reach weapon, but I'll just stand at the back of my 5ft square so I can hit him."
The issue is that your position is centered on the proposition of jumping in a vacuum. I certainly agree that a character making a standing jump from their current square with no other implied movement would fall into an adjacent 5' pit on an Acrobatics result of 5. This situation almost never happens, though. A long jump virtually always occurs in the course of regular movement. What you've described is somewhat space bending if incorporated into regular movement.
As I said, if I'm moving a total of 20' and there's a 10' pit in the middle of that movement, why would 15' of that movement need to be a jump?
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Also, as I keep getting misquoted, I have never once mentioned "center" or "middle" of squares. That's not how Pathfinder determines distance. When moving along a grid, you move from square to square. Where you're at in that square is irrelevant. This same line of thinking destroys discussion about reach combat. "Yeah, I have a reach weapon, but I'll just stand at the back of my 5ft square so I can hit him."
No one is misquoting you or claiming this. However, it is the logical conclusion of how the character is behaving if he must jump 10-feet in order to clear a 5-ft gap. It is also an obvious way to visualize the issue at hand.
We could also take this from a different perspective and not center the gap in a square. What if the gap was off center with half in one square and half in the other? Now all of a sudden that same 5ft gap only needs a 5-ft jump (DC5) rather than a ten foot jump (DC10).
I have issues with a system that changes in DC depending on how the obstacle lines up with an arbitrary grid.
I much prefer that the 5-ft gap requires a DC5 check no matter how its oriented.
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I'll ask explicitly: If you were GMing and a 15' gap came up, would you tell me the DC for jumping it?
Or would you make me look up the rules and calculate it (simple as they are:) and hope I understood them the same way you did?
I correct people on this all the time, whether I'm GMing or playing. Reading this thread and seeing people getting it wrong is what prompted me to post.
For me, it's simple. How many squares are you moving? 4? So, 20ft? Then the DC to jump that 20ft is found in the CRB. It's DC 20.
Will you correct me or give the DC before I roll or decide to Take 10? I think you're saying you will, but it's not entirely clear.
That's why I'd rather just be given the DCs for such things rather than hope I'm remember the rule correctly.
I don't know what you question really is, here.
I'm not some vindictive, punitive GM who's just waiting for a player to slip up.
If any player incorrectly recalled a rule, and rolled dice thinking the DC was X, I'd correct them if I caught it, and give them a chance to reevaluate their action.
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Nefreet, I'm sorry but I can't consider that interpretation even acceptable table variation, much less something you're correcting someone else on. You could not accomplish anything with a DC 5 jump check by your interpretation, and yet there is one there.
You can jump to the square next to the one you're in. Now if you need or want to do this isn't all the time, but it's what you could accomplish.
I'll ask explicitly: If you were GMing and a 15' gap came up, would you tell me the DC for jumping it?
Or would you make me look up the rules and calculate it (simple as they are:) and hope I understood them the same way you did?
I correct people on this all the time, whether I'm GMing or playing. Reading this thread and seeing people getting it wrong is what prompted me to post.
For me, it's simple. How many squares are you moving? 4? So, 20ft? Then the DC to jump that 20ft is found in the CRB. It's DC 20.
The point is that your entire movement doesn't have to be that jump. No one (I think) disagrees that you're moving 20 ft. But the question is how far are you jumping. If there's a 1 ft wide river of lava, how far do I have to jump to clear it? I'm on board with an extra foot, but not the full 5 ft.
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Nefreet, I'm sorry but I can't consider that interpretation even acceptable table variation, much less something you're correcting someone else on. You could not accomplish anything with a DC 5 jump check by your interpretation, and yet there is one there.
You can absolutely jump 5ft. Trip wires come to mind. And the DC would be 5.
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Suppose there is a 4-foot gap. Not 5 feet, but 4 feet. The way the map is drawn, this gap extends 2 feet into the square your character is standing in, and 2 feet into the next square.
Your character wants to standing broad jump this 4-foot gap (no running start). He only needs to land in the square next to him. What is the DC for this jump?
Now the character faces another gap, this one is 5 feet. It extends from the midpoint of the square he's in to the midpoint of the adjacent square. What is the DC for this jump (with no running start)?
Now the character comes to a third gap, this one is identical to the second gap. The only difference is that the grid lines are aligned to the edges of the gap, so the gap begins at the edge of the square your character is standing in and ends at the far edge of the adjacent square (the one with the gap). What is the DC for this jump (with no running start)?
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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I'll ask explicitly: If you were GMing and a 15' gap came up, would you tell me the DC for jumping it?
Or would you make me look up the rules and calculate it (simple as they are:) and hope I understood them the same way you did?
I correct people on this all the time, whether I'm GMing or playing. Reading this thread and seeing people getting it wrong is what prompted me to post.
For me, it's simple. How many squares are you moving? 4? So, 20ft? Then the DC to jump that 20ft is found in the CRB. It's DC 20.
We aren't getting it wrong. We are interpreting it differently. We look at the table and see '5 feet' as the distance to be cleared. You look at the table and see '5 feet' as the distance you jump.
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Nefreet, please consider my post above, especially examples 2 and 3. What would you rule the DCs to be for those examples?
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Nefreet, please consider my post above, especially examples 2 and 3. What would you rule the DCs to be for those examples?
I feel the odd numbers only distract from the discussion. Grid lines are also irrelevant. All that matters is the distance crossed with your jump.
Grid lines don't exist in game. We as players need them to judge distance, but a 4ft gap to a PC is a 4ft gap regardless of grid lines. I would also rule that diagonals would be irrelevant, but that's more a general rule of movement, and I wouldn't fault a GM for counting 2 diagonals of a leap as 15ft.
Whether it's a pit or flat land, all that matters is the distance you're traveling. When the Olympics count how far a person jumps, it's their total distance, not their total distance minus 5ft.
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Any further discussion about the DC for jumping across a gap I'm going to start flagging for off-topic. I'd rather not have to do that so if you could continue any further such conversation HERE it'd be much appreciated.
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I'll ask explicitly: If you were GMing and a 15' gap came up, would you tell me the DC for jumping it?
I would tell you if you asked. ;)
Some players don't want to know - the mystery of the number they need is part of the fun for them. For everyone else, sure.And then I'd let you take a 10 unless you're in combat or otherwise threatened. :)
Or would you make me look up the rules and calculate it (simple as they are:) and hope I understood them the same way you did?
Hell no! PFS is a 'game' right? And games are about having fun. I'm pretty sure that the most fun to be had at my table will NOT be arguing over whether you can make that jump. In 30 years of GMing I've yet to come across a scenario whose main drama or story comes from jumping a 15' pit...