| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My Pathfinder group is on the cusp of beating Kingmaker Book 2, we defeated the CENSOREDs, dealt with CENSORED and are ready to invade the CENSORED's lair for the crescendo of the book. It is going to be cool.
However, my GM is becoming tired of GMing, so someone else is going to pick up Book 3. However, between the two I am going to run a mega-adventure. We can always just apply the Advanced template to the creatures in Book 3, 4, 5 and 6 if need be.
I learned a long time ago that players will make the absolute worst decisions in any given situation. I also learned that if you don't punish this they tend to keep doing more of it. This is pertinent because my PCs are going to be traveling to a Demiplane wherein a former general of the Whispering Tyrant is hanging out. He is friendly towards them on the simple basis that he wants his wayward apprentice, who has recently betrayed him to found a stronghold in the first layer of hell, dead. This apprentice also just so happens to be the one causing the plague that is beginning to ravage my PCs' country.
So, what should I do when my PCs have accepted the hospitality of this lich, only for one PC to decide that she is going to attack the Lich in his seat of power. Should I turn to her and say,
"Yes. You can ~totally~ take on this lich who is more powerful than the boss of the entire adventure path. I mean, he has only invited you into his fortress to treat with you, and intends to actually trade with you later because of reasons I can't tell you until they happen when he reach level 14 or so."
So, what should I do if one of my PCs make the monumentally stupid decision of attacking this Lich? There is going to be a Hound Archon joining the party up to this point, and he is actually chill with this lich insofar as their agreement is based. Surely, if a celestial is not attacking this lich, the Paladin wont either, nor should the cleric.
I do have some fail safes in place, and some bad things can happen on this demiplane. People can die, and the plane is legitimately dangerous on its own (it counts as a hazard, but only gives XP once for defeating it since overcoming it is incredibly simple) and the effect of dying on the plane is that the PC gains the bloody skeletal champion (CR +2, so -2 class levels) template, but aside from looking like a corpse the PC doesn't become a skeleton until deathless takes effect—at which point the corpse flips onto its belly and the skeleton tears itself from the flesh that once trapped it! Until this happens, raise dead reverses the effect.
Should the Lich perform this on the offending PC? We know how this is going to go down, a level 6 VS a CR 20.
Perhaps the Lich could banish them from his domain, but not tell them where they need to go.
Hmm, I'm not sure. What do you guys think?
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sometimes dumb ideas can work. Sometimes they are so crazy-stupid that the BBEG has no plan to counter it. Sometimes the Kree warrior is about to destroy the world, and you have to challenge him to a dance-off.
*walks forward suddenly, the honor guard step forward, drawing their greatswords as the lich's head lowers forward accepting the challenge even before it is issued.*
"I challenge you!" He announces it, pointing at the lich, "To a dance off!"For a moment the audience chamber is silent. Then, the sound of furiously stepping soles sounds as the lich starts to dance.
"Have at you, then."
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Let the player die gruesomely and brutally. Have the lich reanimate them as an enslaved undead.
You kick a god, they kick back.
Then, here's the thing, continue as business as usual. the Lich shouldn't be upset at all. People challenge him foolishly every day. The deal continues, either with the remaining party members or a new party.
The more important question is why are the setting up a very legalistic Paladin to have to treat with a lich? If the paladin is lawful stupid, then this is sort of a setup.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Uh, so, how about you don't expect PCs to deal nicely with a super evil lich bad guy under any circumstances?
Uh, so, how about you don't expect PCs to deal nicely with a super evil lich bad guy under any circumstances?
There is a Lawful Good Outsider, in the form of the Hound Archon, who is more or less saying, "Its cool, you can trust this guy at least this far. I'll be here, waiting for you to get back."
If the PCs are going to attack them, I'd hope they do it at the first encounter. At that point they'd be disarmed, forced to be civil by the guard, told, "Go here, kill this dude, your plague will be over and I'll actually let your crap slide. Isn't that right, Sigurd the Hound Archon?"
He also has no interest in actually fighting the PCs or harming their kingdom. Well, until the Whispering Tyrant wakes back up, at which point all bets are off.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Have the lich use an agent as a mouthpiece rather than talk to the PCs in person? Honestly, any immortality-obsessed wizard ought to have that much paranoia, and the lack of a lich within charge range may lessen the desire to charge-stab-stab & so save the PCs life.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I find the best way to make PCs play nice with NPCs is to have the NPC casually use up a very high level spell on something very trivial.
Lich: "Hello Adventurers, welcome to my realm. I apologize, please forgive my lack of hospitality, would you care for refreshment?
*Casts Wish, copying Unseen Servant to float a tray of drinks and hors d'oeuvres over to the PC's.Lich: "The stuffed veal cutlets are really quite good."
Having a low level archon "vouch" for a super bad guy is not enough reason for a Paladin to obey. The Paladin has spent levels watching wizards casually summon hound archons and force them to murder things.
In your mind, the hound archon is enough. It's the player's mind you need to worry about.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You show the characters from the start that this guy is not to be messed with. The guards are combat-beasts. The PCs are escorted through a well-defended lair where they feel the anti-magic zones, feel the energy from the crackling magic traps, see the sturdy defenses, and hear the cries of those who have slighted the lich. The characters should also be shown a few of the victims of the lich's displeasure (like a Pit Fiend who has conspired against him or a Dark Elf who tried to steal). Show the PCs that the lich has an iron grip and the resources to carry out whatever he wishes. In fact, since he is in his own plane, give him the power to alter existence as he likes. don't even worry about trying to qualify his abilities into spells or abilities. In essence, he can do whatever he likes. Show them that in his domain, he is more than well beyond them.
And then if they press him, decide what the reaction will be; an annoyed stare that inspires nervousness in the guards; or worse. Until you want to have a fight, no matter what they do, always have the lich be cool and collected like the players actions are noting more than a distraction. His power is so complete that they are ants.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've always found that if a single player is intending to do something monumentally eh... poor in judgement, such as this, I step on that player but leave the rest of the party alone.
*Player attempts to kill the lich*
*The lich uses wish to transport the offending PC into the Negative Energy Plane* "That was odd. So anyways, as I was saying, I want you to help me deal with my apprentice."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Adding to RDM42's suggestion, perhaps said lich has a bit of the old Snake Style in his feat repertoire, using it to block the few attacks that might otherwise connect. He uses the gob o' AoO's he has to paralyze offending parties via his lich touch and/or a stunning fist feat.
"Why yes, the lich is so bad a$$ that he invested (3-5) feats into whuppin' punks without expending even a cantrip. Why do you ask?"
I really want to use this alias more.
Anyway, I like RDM42 and Turin's ideas. Let them live.
For now.
EDIT: Forgot to tyrannize.
Explain at the beginning that the players do not have plot armor. If some still does something stupid then do what must be done. I would also have them know in character that this lich is well beyond them in some form or another just in case living in Hell is not enough.
Edit: I don't know where the hell idea came from. I clearly misremembered some but it might not be a bad idea.
Have an in-game way of telling them you absolutely cannot take this thing in combat. The hound archon seems like a good choice of whom should do it. I think they are pretty knowledgeable. Perhaps even have him inform the paladin that he will not be at fault for treating with this being for now, as it is for the greater good, and that the gods will find a way to deal with this being in time, and that they totes know you would die and a dead servant is a useless one... Perhaps be less demeaning about that bit though.
If this is this lich's own personal pocket dimension, then EVERYTHING in it should be a weapon and defense.
That chair your in, those swords and shields on the wall, the table your sitting at, the knives, forks, spoons and dishes on the table? All animated. Those 12 statues you passed in the foyer? Stone Golems. Those Unseen Servants bringing your delicious food and drink? Actually Invisible Stakers. The back wall of the dining hall? Actually an illusion that hides 40 men at arms waiting to attack if the lich is threatened. The 4 suits of armor flanking the liches throne, Iron Golems.
And make sure they know that this lich has something they NEED BADLY and ONLY he can supply it. Without it then the forces of good will take a severe beating or loss of some kind. All the lich wants is for you to do him a favor that happens to also advance the cause of good and he will give you the macguffin. Yes the lich is evil but his goals and the goals of good double coincide in this mission.
Oh and that carpet under your chairs at the dinner table? Teleport circle with a conditional activation that send anyone in it back outside the keep/hall/portal/whatever this place is if they attack anything inside the room.
Or you could also sit the lich behind multiple permanent walls of force.
Game of Thrones it and flat out murder the one dude that tries to fight the guy. The skeletal champion thing sounds too cool to waste and who WOULDN'T want to be a bloody skeleton?! After that, just let the deal go on as normal. The rest of the party should be good after they know this guy isn't to be messed with.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There is a Lawful Good Outsider, in the form of the Hound Archon, who is more or less saying, "Its cool, you can trust this guy at least this far. I'll be here, waiting for you to get back."
And I don't believe for a second that a lawful good outsider would be cool trusting a lich.
Basically, I object to the fact that you are hanging your entire game on the notion of dealing politely with pure evil just because the evil guy wants the same thing as you this one time. I'd far rather the PCs encounter the lich's agents helping them in the field or whatever and deal with it there, rather than relying on an LG outsider acting out of character to convince the Paladin.
He also has no interest in actually fighting the PCs or harming their kingdom. Well, until the Whispering Tyrant wakes back up, at which point all bets are off.
That doesn't matter. Evil is evil! If you're a hero, you don't only care about evil that's coming directly for you and the ones you love, you care about evil in general. You don't say, "Oh, no, it's cool, lich, you can slaughter the next town over, that's cool, just not my village, ok?"
He also has no interest in actually fighting the PCs or harming their kingdom. Well, until the Whispering Tyrant wakes back up, at which point all bets are off.That doesn't matter. Evil is evil! If you're a hero, you don't only care about evil that's coming directly for you and the ones you love, you care about evil in general. You don't say, "Oh, no, it's cool, lich, you can slaughter the next town over, that's cool, just not my village, ok?"
This.
Even if the lich has no interest in killing the party, the paladin might still have an interest in killing the lich."I'd rather die in battle than make a deal with a lich" IS a thing.
"I'd rather all the people in that town died than make a deal with a lich." It's more complicated when the equation doesn't only include your own life.
He also has no interest in actually fighting the PCs or harming their kingdom. Well, until the Whispering Tyrant wakes back up, at which point all bets are off.That doesn't matter. Evil is evil! If you're a hero, you don't only care about evil that's coming directly for you and the ones you love, you care about evil in general. You don't say, "Oh, no, it's cool, lich, you can slaughter the next town over, that's cool, just not my village, ok?"This.
Even if the lich has no interest in killing the party, the paladin might still have an interest in killing the lich."I'd rather die in battle than make a deal with a lich" IS a thing.
But in this case it does include his life. He can either make the deal or attack the lich and die.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It includes his life, yes. But not only his life. Since when is it the purview of the paladin to selfishly think only about how the situation effects only His own life or honor?
That's why I wouldn't put him in such a situation.
Either the celestial could do the bargaining or they could find other ways to find the one responsible.Forcing the paladin to deal with a lich is a jerk move.
"I'd rather all the people in that town died than make a deal with a lich." It's more complicated when the equation doesn't only include your own life.He also has no interest in actually fighting the PCs or harming their kingdom. Well, until the Whispering Tyrant wakes back up, at which point all bets are off.That doesn't matter. Evil is evil! If you're a hero, you don't only care about evil that's coming directly for you and the ones you love, you care about evil in general. You don't say, "Oh, no, it's cool, lich, you can slaughter the next town over, that's cool, just not my village, ok?"This.
Even if the lich has no interest in killing the party, the paladin might still have an interest in killing the lich."I'd rather die in battle than make a deal with a lich" IS a thing.
Deciding to fight an evil that is out of your league is tantamount to killing yourself in some other silly way. This lich isn't an active threat, it exists on a demiplane and the reality it is offering is that if it so wanted, it could attack and likely conquer the PCs kingdom as it exists.
He isn't, as far as the PCs are aware or have heard, being dangerous to the world at this moment. He isn't interested in fighting them, but it just so happens that they are useful to him.Summoning and binding a hound archon to to serve his purpose, gaining the trust of the PCs and giving them the information he wanted them to receive, didn't come cheap for him. Of course he is leaving things out, such as the plane being terribly deadly and inhabited by monstrosities that will likely try to kill the PCs on their trek through it, but that is nothing to him. If the PCs succeed, they will deal with a problem that he has. If they fail, he will know that he'll have to attempt a surgical strike against his apprentice or hire devils to do the job the next time he is in Dis. If the PCs die before or after killing his apprentice while on his plane, he might gain a few more skeletal champions to add to his army.
He doesn't have much to lose that he really cares about. When you have an army of tireless immortals who can mine indefinitely on the plane of earth for gold to smith into money it tends to lose all value: especially when you've had over 1,000 years of free time.
He doesn't want common villagers. They tend to want to escape, and at the end of the day they are usually only good for being animated as skeletons. On top of that the vampires under his rule would have long since maxed out on their HD of vampire spawn. He is written to be an evil that the PCs can ignore until the AP is over. After that ,if they so wish, they can try to take him out.
He is a plot device. If some of the PCs want to throw their lives away, they are welcome to do so. You don't get an audience with Asmodeus, walk into his palace and declare, "Now, villain, you shall die," and expect to survive.
A simple knowledge check would tell the PCs that only powerful spellcasters can become liches (Caster level 11 and up), and therefore the PCs meager level 6 or 7 would likely be hard pressed to defeat a lich at minimum qualifying level. Add in the army of skeletal champions and the fact that he is so unconcerned about the PCs knowing he exists, and it becomes implied that the PCs would have no chance to win even if they tried.
Someone might be stupid, but that is normal. When he casts a 9th level instant death spell to deal with the offending person, the rest will realize that putting their weapons away and being courteous is the best possible decision.
YMMV but I'm glad I'm not part of your party. I would not want to play that kind of plot and if a GM surprises me with it I might either just walk away or first kill my pc by attacking the Lich.
Form everything you tell you only need the lich to show the PCs how weak they are and that they need him to help them.
It includes his life, yes. But not only his life. Since when is it the purview of the paladin to selfishly think only about how the situation effects only His own life or honor?That's why I wouldn't put him in such a situation.
Either the celestial could do the bargaining or they could find other ways to find the one responsible.
Forcing the paladin to deal with a lich is a jerk move.
This, if a paladin like character have any place in a World that World need to support this place, the paladins code should in the end always leed to good things, not nessesarily for him but in the Big picture. In a World where good is good and evil is evil, saying no to evil should be a valid choice for good People.
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions" and all that.| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
To me it sounds like the lich is a GM pet, that is Best left out of the story.
So a Paladins Code should never, ever under any circumstances be tested, and making him make choices is evil?
If you ask if you shouldent make the palandin, or any character really, decide between:
1)Playing the character how they like to play and die.2)Going Against how they Think the character should act and live.
Then yes the answer is no this should never happen.
Of you dont like a character concept dont allow it. There is no Reason to try to force some sort of underdevloped constructivist moral Ideas on others. Not in a game and not outside:)
This is not a nonsensically stupid decision in a serious situation. It looks more like a misreading of the situation.
If you put a sign on a door that says "Do not enter, very dangerous" any PC worth his salt will kick in that door. And these characters are apparently pretty badass if they are expected to curb stomp some critter who has set up a fortress in Hell.
So then you shouldn't ever mention that a more powerful evil even exists until they are ready to deal with it, because they might possibly want to just charge off and attack it immediately. It's how they want to play their character. And making a cleric live up to the ideals of their God in any way whatsoever? Ridiculous.So a Paladins Code should never, ever under any circumstances be tested, and making him make choices is evil?If you ask if you shouldent make the palandin, or any character really, decide between:
1)Playing the character how they like to play and die.
2)Going Against how they Think the character should act and live.
Then yes the answer is no this should never happen.
Of you dont like a character concept dont allow it. There is no Reason to try to force some sort of underdevloped constructivist moral Ideas on others. Not in a game and not outside:)
There is a distinct difference between knowing that an evil exists and having tea with it.
So then you shouldn't ever mention that a more powerful evil even exists until they are ready to deal with it, because they might possibly want to just charge off and attack it immediately. It's how they want to play their character. And making a cleric live up to the ideals of their God in any way whatsoever? Ridiculous.So a Paladins Code should never, ever under any circumstances be tested, and making him make choices is evil?If you ask if you shouldent make the palandin, or any character really, decide between:
1)Playing the character how they like to play and die.
2)Going Against how they Think the character should act and live.
Then yes the answer is no this should never happen.
Of you dont like a character concept dont allow it. There is no Reason to try to force some sort of underdevloped constructivist moral Ideas on others. Not in a game and not outside:)
A GM that create situations, that Can only leed to players going Against how they feel there PCs should be played or death, is a bad GM. How you reach to the other stuff, you seem to Think i am saying, is anybodys guess.
YMMV but I'm glad I'm not part of your party. I would not want to play that kind of plot and if a GM surprises me with it I might either just walk away or first kill my pc by attacking the Lich.
Form everything you tell you only need the lich to show the PCs how weak they are and that they need him to help them.
Cool, and your character would rise as a skeletal champion. A quick will save vs his channel energy save DC would decide if you're his agent or actually free willed to do as you wish.
It is kind of cute that everyone is throwing a fit over something that should only take 30 minutes. A quick:
"Hey, welcome, I'm glad my friend here *fist bumps hound archon* brought you here like I asked. I'm aware of a plague that is accosting your city since I've been tracking the activities of an apprentice that has betrayed his oaths to me. If you kill him, you end the plague, and it just so happens I can tell you exactly where to go. Of course, the only major issue is that he seems to be using a natural portal to hell's top layer that exists in Orv.
"With my magic I can obscure you from the worst of what exists in the Darklands, but it just so happens that my agents have traced his minions path. *He presents a detailed map for the PCs, complete with possible shortcuts and a general time frame for travel.*This should be enough, but I can't tell you exactly what you will find on the way. However, with my magic around you, he'll be unable to divine your location, purpose or intentions through whatever magic he wields.
"The Archon will stay here. *he hands them a mirror.* You make speak to him through this if you wish, and should you require it, he may be able to aid you in some way if you find yourself unable to progress. However, I implore you to keep it covered, in a bag of holding if you can, for our enemy may use it to spy on you directly when his magic fails to offer him the insight he so desires."
Or, if the PCs wish, they can leave the way they came, travel to the darklands or hell in some other manner and defeat the BBEG of this side adventure in some other manner.
Adventure is about surprises, usually unwelcomed ones. You may not like the people who choose to do you favors, you might even think the world would be better without them, but if you're fighting for something your priorities need to be straight. The PCs start on a goal to save their kingdom, that should be at the forefront of their motivations. If something evil decides it wants to help them, so much the better. When they think they're powerful enough, they might even decide to try and eliminate that evil, but today the kingdom needs them.
Just think about how absolutely boring novels would be if everything went as planned. Billy goes to kill Bad Man! He packs the supplies he will need, and begins his trek. The weather is quite hospitable, no landslides, complications or unexpected things happen. He gets there, Bad Man gives his speech, they fight and Billy strikes him down. Billy win! Good win! Yay!
*gets 1 star reviews*
"This is the most boring trite that I have read in decades. How in the world did this even get published! I mean, wow, Billy is not challenged at all with any moral complications, we don't see how he adapts to things going wrong and the adventure is just so boring. He succeeds at every step, and there are no disasters at the ends of scenes. I mean, is this supposed to be satire?"
A GM that create situations, that Can only leed to players going Against how they feel there PCs should be played or death, is a bad GM.
Cute. I'm a bad GM if my players decide to be idiots. Yup, totally, indubitably. The next time I'm playing a Paladin and we play a game where we are in an evil nation, I'm going to attack the evil king, die, and then say, "but according to Cap. Darling this makes you a bad GM because I had my character act like and idiot."
I ignore the Paladin's code, by the way. This isn't me saying the rules are guidelines, this is me saying that within the first chapter or so of the Pathfinder Core it says, "Hey, don't like a rule? Throw it out." I write my mega adventures and modules so that they are interesting, put PCs in interesting situations and allow them to sort out whatever moral obligations that want, then I add things that enable the PCs to interact with it.
If instead of a Hound Archon it was a Solar, would that please you? How about Sarenrae herself? In these situations I can, as the GM, turn and look at the Paladin and say, "this will not effect your paladinhood in any way shape or form, be it now or in the future, though your character might feel some guilt about it."
The PCs have tons of options. The stupid ones get them killed. The neutral ones, such as walking out and finding their own way to the adventure while making plans to come back and kill this guy in the future, can be beneficial to them in some way shape or form. The ones that go along with the content the GM has written is going to help them. Full stop.
I mean, it is almost as if the GM has written a content for you, and is working with the system to make it work with and for you to tell a cool story. Going along with it and having fun tends to make everyone happy.
And to the OP let the lich work via a middel man or a whole chain of middle men. To let him show up like evil Elminster is a bad move even with out the risk of the PCs attacking him. Evil meddeling immortals dont go shopping for there own stuff they send a minion or a minions minion.
Edit: and the Fist bumping lich Sound so painfull, that it alone would make me question, my precence at the table and my sanity:)
So if I understand this correctly, a 6th level PC thinks he can take on a lich?
Let him.
One shot the guy (as a lich would) and have the NPC act like it was nothing, because it was.
I've never employed 'plot armor', if PCs do something stupid that gets them killed, they die.
If they don't learn, they keep dying, I guess that's how they like playing the game?