Figuring out cohort level for bestiary monsters


Advice


I had a friend bring up the idea of a succubus cohort, and it's not one of the ones on the premade list of monstrous cohorts. The idea seems fine, especially since there's a precedent for monstrous cohorts, but I wouldn't want the cohort to be drawn in at a point where it would be overpowering the rest of the party. Is there any consistent way to figure out what level cohort a bestiary monster should be, or will it just be a matter of comparing it to what's already on the list and going from there? If so, any opinions on an appropriate level?


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In the Cohorts and Companions book, there is a line mentioned in passing that monstrous cohorts often count as cohorts of a level equal to twice their CR. I'd say that's a decent starting point.


We just use CR, subject to GM discretion i.e. veto power.

He doesn't like it, you can't have it.

Simple.

Mostly, things with SLA are out, way too easy to abuse.


alexd1976 wrote:

We just use CR, subject to GM discretion i.e. veto power.

He doesn't like it, you can't have it.

Simple.

Mostly, things with SLA are out, way too easy to abuse.

Problem is, I'm likely to be the GM for the game he's talking about. I'm the one that's supposed to be administering the discretion. :/ The SLAs did seem like the part that could get broken really quickly - would it maybe get more doable if I made the SLAs uses/day rather than at will or continuous?

Lathiira wrote:
In the Cohorts and Companions book, there is a line mentioned in passing that monstrous cohorts often count as cohorts of a level equal to twice their CR. I'd say that's a decent starting point.

Well, at least that gives a starting point. Puts it at level 14, which means he couldn't take her as a cohort until 16, which he'll probably be grumpy with, but oh well.


In the actual Bestiary books, they talk about levels=CR, AND you can buy up half your CR during gameplay as a monster...

I don't see any reason to get more complicated than that, other than veto'ing certain choices (likely ones with SLAs).

I wouldn't just blindly double the CR, or just go by base CR.

I would want to look at what they were taking.

I mean, Leadership itself is often banned just on its own...


An NPC with class levels (like a cohort) has a CR = level -1. As such, the starting point for using a monster as a cohort should be CR +1 = level.

Next you need to look at the monster. If it is a monster with a good racial HD and lots of special abilities such as most Dragons or Outsiders, then HD = level is also a good approximation. A less interesting monster such as a magical beast or an animal can have slightly higher HD than cohort level, but you should be careful if the HD is too far off.

Finally, you as the GM should build the cohort. The player gets input on what role the monster should be built for and what PC class it should take once you start advancing it by class levels. But a cohort is an NPC, even though it is usually played by the player. This means you can adjust the final power level of the monster by how much you optimize it.

At least this is how I would run it if I were the GM. The more official rules approach is probably double CR for monster cohorts, as the sample monster cohorts in the bestiary are more in line with that.


Rennaivx wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

We just use CR, subject to GM discretion i.e. veto power.

He doesn't like it, you can't have it.

Simple.

Mostly, things with SLA are out, way too easy to abuse.

Problem is, I'm likely to be the GM for the game he's talking about. I'm the one that's supposed to be administering the discretion. :/ The SLAs did seem like the part that could get broken really quickly - would it maybe get more doable if I made the SLAs uses/day rather than at will or continuous?

Lathiira wrote:
In the Cohorts and Companions book, there is a line mentioned in passing that monstrous cohorts often count as cohorts of a level equal to twice their CR. I'd say that's a decent starting point.
Well, at least that gives a starting point. Puts it at level 14, which means he couldn't take her as a cohort until 16, which he'll probably be grumpy with, but oh well.

You could have him start the cohort with some template that reduces its CR which can laer be bought off.

CR = Level or level-1 is too strong for many monsters, in my book.
Edit: You could modify it a little depending on how strong the pc is/which class he's playing. For a tier 1 class stick to CRx2, for T4 CRx1.5 might be ok, too.


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If you don't want to just double the cohort level (but, for a succubus, it actually works out almost perfectly for it's power level. It's nearest comparison would be an erinyes devil, which is double it's CR), you can use something already in print to figure out about the appropriate power level to add it as a cohort...

I give you, the Anti-Paladin. Under it's Fiendish Boon:

The second type of bond allows an antipaladin to gain the service of a fiendish servant. This functions as summon monster III, except the duration is permanent and the antipaladin can only gain the service of a single creature and that creature must either have the chaotic and evil subtypes or it must be a fiendish animal. Once selected, the choice is set, but it may be changed whenever the antipaladin gains a level. Upon reaching 7th level, and every two levels thereafter, the level of the summon monster spell increases by one, to a maximum of summon monster IX at 17th level.

A succubus is on the summon monster VI list, so an anti-paladin can gain a succubus's "services" at 11th level. That would be a good minimum starting point to grant a succubus cohort, which would make it cohort level 9.

I think cohort level 9 seems too low though. Somewhere between 9 and 14...


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Start by accepting that the Monster effective cohort levels make NO sense.

A Sasquatch, CR 2 with 3 HD and few abilities, would be a 2nd level PC, but for some reason is a 6th(!) level cohort.

Meanwhile, a Blink Dig, also CR 2 and 3 HD with magic powers, is only a 4th level cohort.


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8th level PC takes sasquatch as a cohort. The PC gains a level, the cohort levels, taking a level of barbarian.

When a monster gain a level in a PC class, it gains a +4, +4, +2, +2, 0, -2 stat array. Of course, those +4's go into Strength and Constitution for a barbarian...

Our cohort sasquatch now has Str 26, Con 20; HP are now 45. We give him a Belt of Giant Strength +4. Now when he rages, his Strength is 34...

Pretty good bodyguard for your wizard PC, =)


I was actually playing around a bit, and discovered that if you decrease the spell-like abilities from at-will to 3-4 times/day, it actually works out fairly similar in power to an 11th level human bard that's spent about 60k (of an 82k WBL) on stat-increasing items and put 3 feats into extra performance.

BAB and saves are pretty much the same, hitpoints are worse, the bard's spellcasting ability covers a lot of the spell-like abilities (without the flexibility of real casting), and it trades every bardic performance but fascinate and suggestion and all other class features (bardic knowledge, etc.) for the energy drain and profane gift abilities and outsider immunities. It does still have ethereal jaunt and teleport that are too high for a bard, but since those are self-only, I'm not too concerned.

Defensively, with outsider immunities, DR, and the aforementioned teleport-type abilities, it is stronger than the bard would be, but offensively, it works out fairly closely. Plus, she'll show up completely unarmed and unarmored, so in order to do more than 1d6+1 at level 11, he'll have to pay to outfit her. (I am making the caveat that +6 of her CHA and maybe +4 of her CON counts as an enhancement bonus, so she can't get a headband and go to a 33 charisma. That would be ridiculous.)

We were also looking at having said succubus taking paladin levels, so while there's good charisma synergy, there's also the requirement of being lawful good limiting how she can be played. I'll take the suggestion out of her energy drain and eliminate the demon-summoning to reflect having to walk the straight and narrow. With all that, I think she'll work out as a level 11 cohort that shouldn't overshadow everyone else.

If she'd been left at full, I think it'd take at least level 14 to be balanced, with all the at-will abilities they have.


Of course, all of that doesn't do much to help sort out the general issue of how to translate monstrous cohorts, but at least I figured out how to make it work for this one. :)


That is a good compromise, it puts her right in the middle of the 9-14 spread and makes her more playable for your player without disrupting the game overly much.


The existing chart tends to make monstrous cohorts very expensive. I'd say that the CRx2 guideline is probably better than the CR+1 guideline. Comparing the succubus to existing monstrous cohorts like the 16th level CR 8 Erinyes certainly seems fair too.

If you would like the PC to have access to the cohort before 16th level you could get a little more creative. Here are some options which come to mind:
#1 - Play a Summoner or variant multiclass as one and have a succubus-like eidolon instead of an actual succubus
#2 - Allow the PC to get a "basic" succubus at a lower level but without most of the big SLAs.
#3 - Similar to #2 but have the succubus be the PC and pick up the originally planned PC as a mortal cohort somewhere between levels 3-7 via Squire, Torchbearer, or Leadership

The advantage of #3 would be that you could probably allow the player to unlock the more powerful succubus abilities faster without throwing off game balance. How the relationship is roleplayed would really be up to the player, and maybe the mortal character thinks he or she is "in charge". If options 2 or 3 sound interesting I'd guess that you can find a "monster class" for succubus somewhere which tells you how many hit dice and which powers a monster PC should gain at each "level". You could easily back that into the standard Leadership model for cohort levels.

There was a 3.5 book called Savage Species which had a bunch of monster classes. I'm sure a gazillion homebrew succubus classes are also available on the web. For some reasons folks really like the succubus.


Devilkiller wrote:
For some reasons folks really like the succubus.

Oh, I know exactly why people like the succubus - he's already flat out said he has the standard succubus armor-kini in mind. ;) I did find some succubus classes, but they all seemed a little too powerful, too early for what it felt like.


Devilkiller wrote:

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#3 - Similar to #2 but have the succubus be the PC and pick up the originally planned PC as a mortal cohort somewhere between levels 3-7 via Squire, Torchbearer, or Leadership

Actually, its funny but this IS the best way to get a Succubus "cohort."

A Succubus PC is level 7. So take Leadership and get a human cohort.


I'd bet that you could monkey around with a succubus class and get the abilities to come online at a time you think is reasonable. Looking at how many levels you'd need to roughly simulate the powers with an eidolon might not be unreasonable way to gauge things.

As an aside, if the player is talking about making the succubus a Paladin maybe there's a chance he really just wants a sexy cohort with horns and wings. If so then a re-skinned strix with class levels might work out almost as well. Maybe she's a "half-succubus" (Dad cast Death Ward). Actually, there's a somewhat less powerful monster like that called an Alu-Demon which might make a less disruptive cohort.

Pops was a Good aligned preacher man, but he just couldn't resist a tryst with Succubus Vergara. Now their daughter is the hottest half-fiend in town but has a heart of gold and wants to smite the Evil Pimps who have oppressed her and the Girls for so long. Only our brave hero the PC can satisfy her Abyssal cravings and help keep the Girls on the narrow but not necessarily completely straight path to redemption. Remember, folks, Paladins are immune to disease.


Remember an 11th level Anti-Paladin won't just pick up a Succubus as a companion, he gains an Advanced Succubus as a companion. So if your player were to get an Anti-Paladin as a cohort at 13th level, he would have a better Succubus as his companion for that level plus a 11th level Anti-Paladin.

Further, a Succubus is a very specialized monster. It's only real threats are the enchantment spells (it is very bad at melee, and its CMB and CMD is way to low to grapple anything but 1/2 BAB characters).

As such, I think it would be more fair to compare the succubus to an Enchantment specialized Sorcerer than to compare it to a Bard. Your typical 10th level Kitsune sorcerer would have a DC 25 (+5 Cha, +2 Fey, +3 Kitsune) before counting +Cha items or Spell Focus, and she can cast it more than once per day. The sorcerer is also protected by Emergency Force Sphere and thus survivable, has more spells, and scales much better. This Enchantment DC is the same as a succubus cohort who placed a +4 from a PC level into Charisma.

If you want the succubus to be balanced compared to a similarly leveled PC class, then I would put it around cohort level 9. This means your PC can pick it up at 11th level, the same level Wizards can use Planar Binding to get a succubus minion, Anti-Paladins get the advanced version as a class feature, and they show up on multiple spell lists as a Summon Monster option.

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