Which Rogue's are better?


Advice


The Ninja or the Unchained Rogue?


Probably Ninja.


Unchained Rogue's Debilitating Injury is BRUTAL, though Swift action Invisibility is more reliable at low levels.


They do different things. Hard to say which one is better now. An unchained rogue can take major magic with Vanish and achieve much the same thing as a ninja with vanishing trick.


which is more worth playing?


Gun Dragon wrote:
which is more worth playing?

Either?

Neither are particularly good, but both at least have merits.

They're about equal though.


From what I've seen in play at levels 10 and 11 the Ninja's swift action access to Greater Invisibility can be really impressive. Combined with his low Will save it also makes the other PCs terrified of him getting dominated. I guess a Rogue could do the same thing a little bit slower with a wand, and relying on invisibility to get sneak attack might end up being a mediocre plan at higher levels anyhow.

At levels 1-9 the Ninjas in two different campaigns pretty much sucked. I haven't seen the Unchained Rogue in action yet, but I suspect that free Weapon Finesse and Dex to damage will help it perform a little better at low to mid levels. Even the now powerful 11th level Ninja was literally a laughingstock at lower levels, and that was compared to a Monk/Fighter (not unchained)

Sczarni

Well, I haven't looked at Unchained yet, but I know an invisible ninja throwing things at close range can be pretty devastating at low levels I don't know what Devilkiller's 1-9 ninjas did, but apparently "hide" was not in their wheelhouse). I mean, level 1 = 1d2+1d6+dex bonus every round, level 3, 1d2+2d6+dex bonus, l5: 1d2+3d6+DB, l7: 1d2+4d6+DB, l9: 1d2+5d6+DB... and that is if they just stay invisible the whole time, and only throw one throwing star... add moving to flank instead and you can dish out 2-3x the damage, or use a bow for a few more d6 and a point blank range damage bonus all the way up. Monks really ramp up at level 4 and 5 (with an extra attack for a ki point). So yay! Now they get 3-4 attacks with their 1d8 strike... um... ok... I'll still take the invisible ninja with 3d6 extra sneak attack damage every attack... who never gets hit because he's invisible... And, honestly, a +5BAB visible fighter can't really be that much better than always hitting flat footed AC's while invisible, can it? Anywho....

I'd say ninja is a decent option. But I always have played just "straight up" rogues from the book. I mean, take Merisiel for instance... I think when my son played her (because we had no lvl 5 characters) she was +19 acrobatics... tumbled past everything... only one mob posed a problem (and that was because we were under water holding our breath) and took three tries to get to flanking position. The "regular" players at our table kept sighing and going "tumbling never works" ... and like I said, with the exception of one mob, it worked every time! So don't worry about the nay sayers, and just have fun.

Grand Lodge

Well, Unchained Rogue works with most of the archetypes for Core Rogue.


Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
They do different things. Hard to say which one is better now. An unchained rogue can take major magic with Vanish and achieve much the same thing as a ninja with vanishing trick.

The ninjas vanish trick is a swift action, which allows for some pretty nasty combos like attacking and THEN going invisible that you can't pull off with just vanish.

Scarab Sages

With built in dex to damage, an unchained rogue does more damage when unable to sneak attack, and the unchained rogue's sneak attack does more with debilitating injury.

Add in that unchained rogue can take archetypes, and it's better than the ninja overall. But the ninja still has some good tricks.


Ninjas can take archetypes. Not many, but scout is a really good one.

Grand Lodge

Unchained Rogue is pretty good now...only thing they should have fixed is give them a small bump to their saves...You can always take the feats for that but it still is not the same.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
They do different things. Hard to say which one is better now. An unchained rogue can take major magic with Vanish and achieve much the same thing as a ninja with vanishing trick.

The ninjas vanish trick is a swift action, which allows for some pretty nasty combos like attacking and THEN going invisible that you can't pull off with just vanish.

The rogue could always take quicken spell like ability at level 11. Granted at that point the ninja gets greater invisibility but it is still something to consider.


@maouse - One of the Ninjas is a catfolk who does TWF with claw blades or a claw blade and a wakizashi. His big tricks in low level combat were missing a lot and getting dropped to below 0 hit points since he had a crappy AC. At 11th level he uses a wand of Shield before combat and he's usually invisible. Suddenly he's a melee powerhouse. The other Ninja is a goblin who uses Spring Attack. Maybe that's a dumb plan, but while he hasn't been impressive in terms of damage output he also hasn't been unconscious repeatedly.

Obviously moving into flank to slice and dice is an option, but that's one the Unchained Rogue has too, and at low levels sneak attack damage doesn't end up being more than what a Fighter with a high Str can churn out with a big weapon and Power Attack. I seem to recall that around level 8-9 the TWF Ninja was hitting for around 20 damage per attack. My Monk 2 / Fighter X was doing around the same damage per hit, hitting more consistently, and making around as many attacks using stuff like Vicious Stomp, Enforcer+Hurtful, and Greater Trip. Eventually the Ninja will gain Claw Pounce and be a DPR superstar, but in the meantime I've still got more versatility when unable to full attack since I can usually generate at least two attacks to his one and perform some debuffs while I'm at it.

Dark Archive

I'd say go Unchained Rogue and grab some ninja tricks if you like them, or ask your DM if you can combine Unchained Rogue and Ninja with the scout archetype and then you have a viable class I.E. you get Ninja Tricks, access to the new better rogue talents, and the debilitating injury ability along with dex to hit and damage of the unchained rogue... It's like a full class.


The unchained rouge has several advantages over the ninja. First is that they get weapon finesse and DEX to damage automatically. Their sneak attack is better for 2 reasons. First they get debilitating injury at 4th level. Second and actually more important is that they can sneak attack anything that does not have total concealment. The ninja on the other hand cannot sneak attack if the target has concealment. Which means a ninja without some dark vision cannot sneak attack target in dim light. This is a major advantage for the unchained rogue.

Many of the rogue talents got upgraded so they are no longer useless. Combat swipe now allows the rogue to pick up greater steal without having to meet the prerequisites. Minor magic now allows you to cast a cantrip unlimited times per day, and major magic also allows for multiple casting of a spell. Certainty gives you the ability to reroll a skill check after you roll and take the better result. It may be limited to a single skill, and have limited uses but is still decent.

Skill unlocks finial give the rogue something unique. While other classes can pick up a single edge with a feat the rogue gets multiple unlocks. While some of the skill unlocks may not be that impressive some are pretty good. Perception unlock are probably one of the better ones. Bluff is also good at 15 ranks and above. Sense at 10 ranks motive allows you to read creatures thoughts. The abilities are not magic so function in an antimagic shell, and are not detectable by magic.

While the improvements to the unchained rogues are nothing really earth shattering they do mean the rogue can at least contribute something to combat. More importantly since they no longer have to spend as many feats for basic combat competency they can now use those feats for other things. Now instead of having to spend all your feats on combat you can actually use them for other things. Now a rogue can actually be a thief without having to be a liability.

If you are focused only on combat the swashbuckler is probably better than either the ninja or the unchained rogue. If you are looking for an assassin type character that is more focused on combat the ninja is probably the way to go. If on the other hand you want to play the classic thief the unchained rogue is probably the best choice.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Unchained with Ninja tricks. Still subpar IME though. All of my Pathfinder Rogues are deceased :)

Last game was a 3rd level Unchained Halfling. Had Trap Spotter and high Perception/Disable. Elven Curve Blade user. Failed to spot both traps, failed disable, failed reflex saves against trap, was critted by boss ( love that Rogue AC :D ) and then channeled to death while unconscious after the boss 1 rounded him. In an AP. (RotR)

Pretty much like every other Pathfinder Rogue. Skills don't affect game significantly, weak defenses and go squish when stepped on. The offense 'boosts' did not really come into play since he had the exact same issues as prior rogues of positioning.


My best advice, which might seem pretty lame, is to invest in UMD and use a wand of Shield. It is dirt cheap AC.

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