Superheroes or Novel


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During actual gameplay higher level characters not backed by magic can fall from incredible heights and walk away and survive in fire for a ridiculously long time by normal person standards.
On the other hand even a high level character in a novel would likely die from falling from a very high place or falling in lava.

In your games do you assume a transformation into superheroes or do you use some combination of flavor and/or handwaving certain things that are beyond any human with regard to taking damage?


I dunno, depends on which novels you read. Xp

I generally assume a sort of gradual "heroes are just better" trend. And then try to avoid putting the characters in situations where they're making falls from orbit so I never have to bother with how they survive it.


I do a blend. There comes a point, despite HP or other game mechanics, you just can't withstand it. Lava, for instance is 2000 degrees or so. Enough to melt just about anything on contact. Something like that, yeah, just kiss your keister good bye if you are in it for more than a round. But ymmv, I tend to blend a bit of realism with the fantasy.


Use "exploding dice" for things like really high falls and lava?


Heroes of epics and myths are probably the better source, which is pretty close to being a modern day superhero. Beowulf is a pretty good example. Indiana Jones is a good modern example, and an example of how such things aren't well received these days.

The modern day fantasy hero is almost paradoxically more rooted in reality. We want the modern hero to be like a regular guy while everything around him is extraordinary. These tastes aren't forever and popular heroes will eventually swing back to the exaggerated form, but it probably won't happen in our lifetime.

Shadow Lodge

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Some people have said that the actual intention for falling damage (from way back in 1974) was that it was to be cumulative; ie 1d6 for 10 feet, 1d6 + 2d6 = 3d6 for 20 feet, etc. Which, if you keep 200 feet as the "terminal velocity" means that falling 200 feet or more results in 210d6 damage.


I prefer it being "superheroes" makes it more like myth.

Sovereign Court

We usually call it quits around level 12 so you can get to fantastical but not quite super hero or epic/myth.


I just roll with high level characters being superheroes that can actually shrug off harm that would instantly kill lesser mortals.


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I view most of high hit points being fate/luck that protects a destined individual, not the ability to ignore damage. My favorite example is that a blaster bolt will take out a Storm Trooper with one shot, but when Leia gets shot, it is only a grazing wound to her arm. Same weapon, it does the same damage, but she had more hit points.


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I handwave.

Real people do occasionally fall from great heights and survive.

I try to dissect the experiences of my characters from that of the gaming community as a whole. For me it is an epic story concerning a specific cast of characters and no one else matters.

That, and I also try and avoid situations where it's happening so often that it loses that "epic" feeling.


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Depends on the campaign, really, but mostly flavor / hand-waiving.

Much like the 34 point critical that would have all-but severed a PC's head at 1st level is no longer described as a near-decapitating injury at 9th level, at 17th+ I make sure that the descriptive flavor isn't too insane for what is going on unless there are other factors (ie if the PC is completely immune to fire, then I worry less about the descriptive element seeming too over the top when lava is involved).

-TimD

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

I just assume hit points are mostly magical, and work whatever way is most efficient to shield the character from harm.

If that means the sure shot is just a graze, that's what happens.
If that means it takes your plummet from 200' and feeds the impact back into the ground so you make a dent and impact crater, that's what happens.
If it means that it actually absorbs the 20d6 damage from the lava for a round or two before its overwhelmed, that's what happens.

It helps that I use Health/Soak to differentiate between 'physical' hit points and 'temporary' hit points, and Soak is very explicitly a magical effect tied to character class levels, where Health is tied to Racial Hit Dice.

So, hacking on a demon with 100 hit points, it feels like he's made of ironwood or something, and hacking on a f/10 its nigh impossible to land a decent blow until the very last one.

Gives a more obvious feel to what is magical and what is not.

==Aelryinth

Sovereign Court

I don't think that high HP is meant that you can actually meant to mean that you can take an axe to the face two dozen times. They're all near misses, perhaps scratching you etc - because of how awesome you are, all of them tiring you and wearing away at your awesomeness.

In the same way - I don't think that when your high HP character falls off of a 250ft cliff they're actually plummeting all that way. Instead, they quickly toss out their magic cloak in a makeshift parachute to absorb most of the impact. Or they claw at the rock face every dozen or so feet to slow them to a survivable speed. Or they land in trees at just the right angle for the branches to slow their impact without them being impaled. (Look it up - it's happened a few times where people have survived falling out of airplanes without parachutes.) Etc


Charon's Little Helper wrote:

I don't think that high HP is meant that you can actually meant to mean that you can take an axe to the face two dozen times. They're all near misses, perhaps scratching you etc - because of how awesome you are, all of them tiring you and wearing away at your awesomeness.

In the same way - I don't think that when your high HP character falls off of a 250ft cliff they're actually plummeting all that way. Instead, they quickly toss out their magic cloak in a makeshift parachute to absorb most of the impact. Or they claw at the rock face every dozen or so feet to slow them to a survivable speed. Or they land in trees at just the right angle for the branches to slow their impact without them being impaled. (Look it up - it's happened a few times where people have survived falling out of airplanes without parachutes.) Etc

The issue I see with this interpretation is that is raises the question on how healing magic works.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
wraithstrike wrote:

During actual gameplay higher level characters not backed by magic can fall from incredible heights and walk away and survive in fire for a ridiculously long time by normal person standards.

On the other hand even a high level character in a novel would likely die from falling from a very high place or falling in lava.

In your games do you assume a transformation into superheroes or do you use some combination of flavor and/or handwaving certain things that are beyond any human with regard to taking damage?

There's a reason Pathfinder is referred to as Heroic Fantasy, as opposed to Pettily Realistic Urban. High Fantasy novel characters don't die from slipping on bananna peels or falling off roofs.


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I sorta see the PCs as superheroes and BBEGs and their henchman as supervillains. In any given locatin in my homebrew, be it isolated hamlet or bustling metropolis, anyone above 5th level is rare. I've always felt that if the world was stuffed full of high level characters the players wouldn't feel as special. That's not to say that there are no high level characters other than them; they're just hard to come by.

So yeah. Superheroes.


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I assume transformation into superhero in my games. That way I don't have to reason away everything that happens, and I can still maintain whatever flavour I want to.

GM: "You fall off the 200 ft cliff and take 60 dmg"
PC: "I'm not even at half hp, I stand up and start crawling back up"
GM: "But... you... you just fell 200 ft"
PC: "I know, but I'm not even at half hp. Is that a problem"
GM: "No, it's.... you see, your character didn't really fall all that distance, the damage represents him hitting outcroppings, branches and landing in a mound of relatively soft dirt. All these things hurt him, but they also slowed his fall, which is why he survived"

That works, right up until the character falls off something where the shape allows no such thing. Like doing a Denethor-dive off Minas Tirith. Then reasoning away how you survived becomes hard.

Same thing happens when you fight a dragon with the Snatch feat. Normally you get a reflex save so it goes like this:

GM: "The fire licks across the ground, you throw yourself for dear life..."
PC: "My character hasn't moved from his square though, right?"
GM: "...no. Now, you throw yourself for dear life, bringing your shield up to guard against the flames"
PC: "My character doesn't carry a shield"
GM: "....... in an astounding display of speed, your character swings his cloak around him, and empties his waterskin over himself. The flames, amazingly only singe you"
PC: "I left my cloak and waterskin in the backpack outside the cave"
GM: "Look... you... your character gets lucky and is not dead"

But once Snatch enters the equation, where you take the full blast of dragonfire directly to the face(No reflex save allowed), because the dragon is holding you trapped in its mouth, then you have to reason away why the PC is alive, but every building in a 60 ft cone behind him has been reduced to molten rock, charcoal and scorch-marks.

In my games, you rise to herculean levels of fortitude and strength. A martial with a high damage output, swinging a warhammer at the ground is gonna shake the dust off every nearby building.

Getting stabbed with a dagger and collapsing on the ground, slowly bleeding out is reserved for the level 1 NPC classed people, who make up around 99% of the world's population. So there's plenty of novel-realism IN the world. The heroes just rise above it, becoming more akin to superheroes, demi-gods or warriors of ancient mythology.

That is just my way, though. :)

-Nearyn


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Milo v3 wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:

I don't think that high HP is meant that you can actually meant to mean that you can take an axe to the face two dozen times. They're all near misses, perhaps scratching you etc - because of how awesome you are, all of them tiring you and wearing away at your awesomeness.

In the same way - I don't think that when your high HP character falls off of a 250ft cliff they're actually plummeting all that way. Instead, they quickly toss out their magic cloak in a makeshift parachute to absorb most of the impact. Or they claw at the rock face every dozen or so feet to slow them to a survivable speed. Or they land in trees at just the right angle for the branches to slow their impact without them being impaled. (Look it up - it's happened a few times where people have survived falling out of airplanes without parachutes.) Etc

The issue I see with this interpretation is that is raises the question on how healing magic works.

The first 50% of your health is you parrying or barely blocking, being lightly grazed or having to roll out of the way; the blow that you deflected with your shield makes your arm ache. The second 50% of your health is you getting hacked, stabbed, or otherwise seriously injured because your stamina is gone. You are still somewhat blocking, but it's harder, and you're tired.

Above 50% healing magic is just giving you back stamina, refreshes you, and acts as a complete restoration of your muscles and cardiovascular system. Below 50% healing magic knits wounds supernaturally fast, to the extent that days or even weeks of healing occurs in seconds.

My group plays with this as our paradigm, and it works well. Much easier to explain that you're not just constantly being stabbed by things all the time forever.

Sovereign Court

Milo v3 wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:

I don't think that high HP is meant that you can actually meant to mean that you can take an axe to the face two dozen times. They're all near misses, perhaps scratching you etc - because of how awesome you are, all of them tiring you and wearing away at your awesomeness.

In the same way - I don't think that when your high HP character falls off of a 250ft cliff they're actually plummeting all that way. Instead, they quickly toss out their magic cloak in a makeshift parachute to absorb most of the impact. Or they claw at the rock face every dozen or so feet to slow them to a survivable speed. Or they land in trees at just the right angle for the branches to slow their impact without them being impaled. (Look it up - it's happened a few times where people have survived falling out of airplanes without parachutes.) Etc

The issue I see with this interpretation is that is raises the question on how healing magic works.

*Shrug* - that was actually one of the things that I really liked about 4th ed - all healing was % based. It made better sense from a fluff perspective - and it made a mediocre defenses/high HP character something other than a drain on party resources.

Edit: Actually - Puna'chong above explained my theory better than I did..


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Novel or superhero....

Neither....action movie hero.

Think Bruce Willis in the Die Hard movies.


Puna'chong wrote:
Much easier to explain that you're not just constantly being stabbed by things all the time forever.

Isn't it actually easier to not handwave stuff and just have them all as meat-points? It might damage some individuals immersion, but it's still easier .


Milo v3 wrote:
Puna'chong wrote:
Much easier to explain that you're not just constantly being stabbed by things all the time forever.
Isn't it actually easier to not handwave stuff and just have them all as meat-points? It might damage some individuals immersion, but it's still easier .

Mostly it's easier not to think about it too much. Accept it as an abstraction and run with it.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

To quote Ultimate Combat's prelude to the Wounds and Vigor subsystem...

Ultimate Combat wrote:
Hit points are an abstraction. When a fighter gains a level, his body does not suddenly become more resistant to damage. A sword's strike does not suddenly do proportionately less damage. Rather, hit points suggest that the fighter has undergone more training, and while he may have improved his ability to deal with wounds to a small degree, the hit points gained at higher levels reflect less his capacity for physical punishment and more his skill at avoiding hits, his ability to dodge and twist and turn. Each loss of hit points, in this case, suggests that he is becoming progressively less nimble over the course of combat—in other words, that the decreasing hit points are a marker for his overall endurance and condition. It's not quite as satisfying, however, to roll a critical hit and then tell a player that his opponent ducked out of the way, but that the sword's slash made the enemy a little less lucky.


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Milo v3 wrote:
Puna'chong wrote:
Much easier to explain that you're not just constantly being stabbed by things all the time forever.
Isn't it actually easier to not handwave stuff and just have them all as meat-points? It might damage some individuals immersion, but it's still easier .

It's 0% handwaiving. And when I have new players that try to understand combat with 30-some hitpoints, it's easy enough to have them imagine it this way rather than tell them "OUCH! You got stabbed! But you still have 28 hit points, so no worries! You'll probably get stabbed eight or nine more times, instead of blocking or dodging anything like how a real living thing would!" Older players have no trouble with it either.

I've played this way for years, and it was actually how Puna'chong Sr. taught me when I was a wee witch doctor. My new groups actually use a version of Wounds/Vigor that I've been tinkering with that even gives the Heal skill more time to shine (every point above 15 the check rolls is a point of Vigor back, usable once per encounter), and even though absolutely nothing changes about how durable characters are there is a distinct difference in how the players are imagining combat.

It's also nice as a DM to be able to tell a player that, even though their attack did 50 damage, the enemy still blocked it with his shield with a resounding *clang*. Just saying that they know the enemy isn't "bloodied" yet, and that the dude is pretty durable.


Isn't it possible in RL for a normal person to fall out of a second story window and survive? That would be like a 1d6 hp damage for a commoner right? They have about 10 hp or so? Maybe more? Heroes have more and therefore can deal with falling damage better.

I suppose one could play a game of Commoners with no magic and no hero anything where life is boring. But that would be GURPS right? :D


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I tend to in the case of falling in lava, or even falling from the back of a flying creature at extreme heights that the character will die. That is provided they do not have some sort of spell like feather fall, or fly, and even some item to let them glide to safety they are given a chance to survive a fall from great distance. My players enjoy that aspect becaise they know that even at higher levels they aren't yet gods.

Obviously others have different playing styles as posted above, in the long run it's about the playing style that a person enjoys.


ngc7293 wrote:

Isn't it possible in RL for a normal person to fall out of a second story window and survive? That would be like a 1d6 hp damage for a commoner right? They have about 10 hp or so? Maybe more? Heroes have more and therefore can deal with falling damage better.

I suppose one could play a game of Commoners with no magic and no hero anything where life is boring. But that would be GURPS right? :D

The average human commoner has between 4 and 6 hp. :)

They have 1 HD and a d6 for their hit die. Since they're NPCs, by default you assume average result on all HD so 3 hp. Since they are probably physically active, giving them the melee-NPC stat array nets them a 12 con which would mean they get +1 hp, coming up to 4. Then the human stat-bonus gets factored in - for those who have that bonus to con, the hp increases by another +1, to 5. The last variable is whether or not they use their favored class bonus for +1 HP or +1 skill point. Commoners are not very durable :P

-Nearyn

EDIT: Well, I say that, but let's see how beefy we can make a level 1 human commoner. Non-heroic NPCs use point-buy 3, so we could make an NPC with:

9 STR, 7 DEX, 18 CON, 7 INT, 7 WIS, 7 CHA

Then add the human ability bonus to con for 20 con. Use the favored class bonus to add another HP, and then take toughness for a level 1 feat.

This will net us a level 1 commoner with 12 hp. I don't know if they come any tougher than that :)


Make the falling and lava damage dice be 'higher denomination' if you want to increase the likelihood of dying from that sort of event but leave a chance of living.

Or have a fort save or reflex save(pick best of two) against let's randomly say 18 DC and increasing by one for every height increment. Failing it, you are reduced to half hit points, then on top of that take the damage.

Or something like that.


Nearyn wrote:
ngc7293 wrote:

Isn't it possible in RL for a normal person to fall out of a second story window and survive? That would be like a 1d6 hp damage for a commoner right? They have about 10 hp or so? Maybe more? Heroes have more and therefore can deal with falling damage better.

I suppose one could play a game of Commoners with no magic and no hero anything where life is boring. But that would be GURPS right? :D

The average human commoner has between 4 and 6 hp. :)

They have 1 HD and a d6 for their hit die. Since they're NPCs, by default you assume average result on all HD so 3 hp. Since they are probably physically active, giving them the melee-NPC stat array nets them a 12 con which would mean they get +1 hp, coming up to 4. Then the human stat-bonus gets factored in - for those who have that bonus to con, the hp increases by another +1, to 5. The last variable is whether or not they use their favored class bonus for +1 HP or +1 skill point. Commoners are not very durable :P

-Nearyn

EDIT: Well, I say that, but let's see how beefy we can make a level 1 human commoner. Non-heroic NPCs use point-buy 3, so we could make an NPC with:

9 STR, 7 DEX, 18 CON, 7 INT, 7 WIS, 7 CHA

Then add the human ability bonus to con for 20 con. Use the favored class bonus to add another HP, and then take toughness for a level 1 feat.

This will net us a level 1 commoner with 12 hp. I don't know if they come any tougher than that :)

Isn't it 15? 6(hit dice) +5 (con)+1(favored class)3(toughness at first level)

Edit: (Ah, I saw your assumed average die results, my bad.)

But the theoretical maximal commoner would end up fifteen if everything had landed just right at level one.


@RDM42: A commoner could retrain his HP to get the 3 hp from his hit die up to 6, I guess. So could most NPCs if they'd put their minds and cash into it. As it stands though, assuming the NPCS populating the world are made with the rules governing NPC creation, all their HD come out to average.

Creating NPCs wrote:
Determine the character's total hit points by assuming the average result.

But yes, you are absolutely right, theoretically they can get half again as many hit points out of their their HD.

-Nearyn


wraithstrike wrote:

During actual gameplay higher level characters not backed by magic can fall from incredible heights and walk away and survive in fire for a ridiculously long time by normal person standards.

On the other hand even a high level character in a novel would likely die from falling from a very high place or falling in lava.

The mistake in this reasoning, in my opinion, is that those characters in the novels that die from falls, aren't really high level.

Beowulf wouldn't die falling from a cliff, neither would Achilles or Cu'Chulain. Aragorn would, but that's because, in Pathfinder terms, Aragorn is low level, and the whole Lord Of The Ring Story is low level. Going through the films:

They face undeads with fancy names, called Nazghuls, and they run for their lives (Wraiths are CR5, incorporeal, can't be really damaged without magic items, and drain your life when they touch you, so they do the right thing fleeing, because they are low levels)
They face a swarm of crows, called the Crebain and they hide themselves because they can't kill swarms without AOE.

Then they kill a bunch of goblins and orcs, and face a baby rock troll, which almost TPK them. They kill some more orcs (the ones riding worgs give them a run for their money, almost killing Aragorn), then part of the group almost die against a elephant sized spider called Shelob

So yes, it's normal than Aragorn and his friends die if they fall 200', because they are lvl 5 characters facing CR5 encounters. I'd like to note that the only real high level guy, the GMPC wizard, fought a Balor and fell from a mountain, and didn't die.

Cuchulain, Beowulf, Gilgamesh, etc, wouldn't die if they fall from a cliff. Only low level characters do


Do you kill the level 20 Fighter on the spot if he fails the Ref save against a Fireball? I mean, fire burns people


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I have always liked the original description for HP advancement. It showed the players exp for taking damage. Learning to turn or flinch at the right time so the stab only grazed or atleast missed vitals. Plus learning to push through minor wounds that would debilitate someone who has never been hit before. And I don't remember where but in many systems I have found caveats to the rules that state just because the dice show you can fall 2000 feet and survive some times common sense needs to prevail

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Hit points are as magical as fireballs.

Look at any anime. The ability to take massive attacks and just come back into them is part and parcel of the fantasy genre. If you have magic, you have the ability to withstand damage.

It's also assumed that higher level characters have DR thresholds that lower levels just can't surpass without great luck. The ability to even damage a high level character is a sign of power and talent.

or as Han Jee Han notes, looking at the huge golem of the Blackrock Alchemists, "Its at least 50 levels above me. Can I even hurt it?"

The 'real world' lives in the wounds system. The magical world lives in the Vitality system.

One thing Pathfinder does fail to do is recognize that warriors have almost always had toughness advantages over casters. The ability to weather magical attacks and keep coming is part of the magical warrior trope. Since Hit Dice are far less important then COnstitution for HP in the Pathfinder system, this doesn't hold true very well.

IMC, full casters with 9 levels of spells get d6 hp, and limits on Con bonuses (yeah, old school, I know). Melee-Casters like bards and Inqs get d6+2's and restrictions on Con bonuses.

Full Martials with lesser magic get d6's +4. Barbs and Fighters get d6's+6. And unrestricted Con bonuses to HP.

So the more a fighter you are, the more absolute HP advantage you have over non-Casters. Casters defend themselves in other ways. HP is the big way martials do it.

==Aelryinth


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gustavo iglesias wrote:
I'd like to note that the only real high level guy, the GMPC wizard, fought a Balor and didn't die

Well, he kinda did.

But then he remembered he was a wizard and got over it.

:P


gustavo iglesias wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

During actual gameplay higher level characters not backed by magic can fall from incredible heights and walk away and survive in fire for a ridiculously long time by normal person standards.

On the other hand even a high level character in a novel would likely die from falling from a very high place or falling in lava.

The mistake in this reasoning, in my opinion, is that those characters in the novels that die from falls, aren't really high level.

Beowulf wouldn't die falling from a cliff, neither would Achilles or Cu'Chulain. Aragorn would, but that's because, in Pathfinder terms, Aragorn is low level, and the whole Lord Of The Ring Story is low level. Going through the films:

In D&D/PF novels if someone is taking on things that are CR 13 and higher they are high level. You don't just solo nightshades, take on liches, pit fiends and balors, and tag team dracoliches, and not be high level.

I mostly certainly think Beowulf would die. He would definitely not just brush himself off and walk away. Achilles is alive because he has DR vs anything not attacking his ankle. I don't know who Cu'Chulain is.


Cu Chulainn is an old Irish hero who's really, really awesome. If you've ever seen Fate/Stay Night, he's Lancer.


I will put it on my too watch list. :)


While it's not perfect, I like to use a modified Wounds and Vigor system (with Vigor having a con modifier). For falls, lava, and other applicable damage types, I have the damage apply as normal, with one damage per die applied to wounds. This kills normal people and severely wounds the incredibly tough. It's not a perfect system, but I like unabstracting some of the health and damage stuff.


As a GM I'm a handwave it/superhero kinda guy. I like the action adventure, over the top heroic feel. Realism is for mooks not Heroes.

As a player I'm not a big fan of a GM who just tells me "you die" when the rules tell me I should be fine. I'd be a lot happier with the massive damage rule imposed. Only issue is that, if that kind of thing bothers you, at that level the save DC is maybe a little low so maybe scaling saving throws (scroll down a little).


dragonhunterq wrote:

As a GM I'm a handwave it/superhero kinda guy. I like the action adventure, over the top heroic feel. Realism is for mooks not Heroes.

As a player I'm not a big fan of a GM who just tells me "you die" when the rules tell me I should be fine. I'd be a lot happier with the massive damage rule imposed. Only issue is that, if that kind of thing bothers you, at that level the save DC is maybe a little low so maybe scaling saving throws (scroll down a little).

Really, falling off a building (or from space, for that matter) and falling into lava are probably the most legit "You're just dead" scenarios I can imagine.


Albatoonoe wrote:
Really, falling off a building (or from space, for that matter)

There are documented cases of normal people surviving falling from terminal velocity though.

Shadow Lodge

Entryhazard wrote:
Albatoonoe wrote:
Really, falling off a building (or from space, for that matter)
There are documented cases of normal people surviving falling from terminal velocity though.

Yes but those didnt just get up and walk away, they usually spent months to years recovering.

The problem with straight HP in PF is that your character could fall from space and take all but 1 hp and get up and walk away.

If this isnt a problem for you, great have fun, but it can be a problem for others.


Thing is - while GMs and players everywhere can tell whatever story they like and have fun in whichever way suits them, surely you'll need to take, at least a few steps back from reality when playing in a game such as this.

Pathfinder isn't really written for super-realism, the laundry list of trouble that would arise from trying to maintain a realistic feel while playing by the rules, is really quite amazing.

Heroes falling off an airship and dropping a clean, uninterrupted 800 ft, before hitting unyielding flagstones. Then stand back up and brushing the dust off.

High-level martials destroying an iron-golem with a soup-ladle.

Characters outrunning horses.

Characters standing in lava.

Characters doing more damage with a chair-leg than a dagger on an equally clean strike.

The worlds greatest archer misses the broad side of a barn 5% of the time.

A character just punched through a solid-oak door.

A character just eviscerated a stone-collumn in 6 seconds flat.

The list goes on, but it seems impractical, to me, to try to reason away everything the system permits. Surely, if you wanted to run realism you could use the Storyteller system or somesuch. I remember Dark-Ages vampire Chronicles I've played in. Combat tended to be over in one or two solid hits.

-Nearyn


Nearyn wrote:

The list goes on, but it seems impractical, to me, to try to reason away everything the system permits. Surely, if you wanted to run realism you could use the Storyteller system or somesuch. I remember Dark-Ages vampire Chronicles I've played in. Combat tended to be over in one or two solid hits.

-Nearyn

Or I could slap two optional rules together and call it a day. It's not really all or nothing. People can be dissatisfied with realism in particular parts of the system without needing realism in all parts of the system.


Albatoonoe wrote:
Nearyn wrote:

The list goes on, but it seems impractical, to me, to try to reason away everything the system permits. Surely, if you wanted to run realism you could use the Storyteller system or somesuch. I remember Dark-Ages vampire Chronicles I've played in. Combat tended to be over in one or two solid hits.

-Nearyn

Or I could slap two optional rules together and call it a day. It's not really all or nothing. People can be dissatisfied with realism in particular parts of the system without needing realism in all parts of the system.

Uhoh. You are denying the "but dragons exist therefore any nod whatsoever to any form of realism whatsoever can go hang" 'argument'.


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I want to get on the soapbox.

To me, the problem was never that the fact that Pathfinder and DnD in general is superhero system in fantasy disguise. Low levels are like origin stories and then you go off to save the world or multiverses as you get higher level. You become a hero, a superhero!

Fine, but unlike all good origin stories, Pathfinder has no good codified REASON for becoming superhuman. What exactly did the rogue do to become a superhero? Wizards and other casters have always had the ease of explaining their rise to power, it is after all magic and they do not have to explain feces.

Paizo's attitude seems to be that each story has to come up with their own means for character growth. Some of their APs do this well enough, some of them do not care at all.

And I do not want people to tell me to come up with the reasons myself, the radioactive bear's bite that makes the fighter into unbreakable magical slab of meat. Because the power progression is systematic, reasons for said growth should be systematic reasons too. For some classes this is already the case. Sorceresses grow closer to their bloodlines. Shamans grow closer to the spirits. Witches grow closer to their patrons.


And being snatched by a red dragon and taking a face full of fire isn't a justifiable "you're dead" scenario? If my GM said "you're dead" in that scenario I think you'd justifiably have an issue as a player, right? How is falling 200' and being told "you're dead" any different?


Envall wrote:

I want to get on the soapbox.

To me, the problem was never that the fact that Pathfinder and DnD in general is superhero system in fantasy disguise. Low levels are like origin stories and then you go off to save the world or multiverses as you get higher level. You become a hero, a superhero!

Fine, but unlike all good origin stories, Pathfinder has no good codified REASON for becoming superhuman. What exactly did the rogue do to become a superhero? Wizards and other casters have always had the ease of explaining their rise to power, it is after all magic and they do not have to explain feces.

Paizo's attitude seems to be that each story has to come up with their own means for character growth. Some of their APs do this well enough, some of them do not care at all.

And I do not want people to tell me to come up with the reasons myself, the radioactive bear's bite that makes the fighter into unbreakable magical slab of meat. Because the power progression is systematic, reasons for said growth should be systematic reasons too. For some classes this is already the case. Sorceresses grow closer to their bloodlines. Shamans grow closer to the spirits. Witches grow closer to their patrons.

Do we need a reason?

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