A big part of things to consider is that a level six or so PC has, generally speaking, left peak human potential behind them. The strongest hero that ever lived on Earth was probably a level five or so warrior. The majority of people are level one or two commoners and experts.
With our single-digit HP, a single shot from a pistol, slice from a sword, or a bad fall is the end for us. PCs are not made of the same stuff we are. Even relatively early in the game, there is no human frame of reference for how good the Brawler is at fist-fighting or the fighter is with his weapon of choice. There's no human to point to to compare how tough they are; once you've cleared Rusty Dagger Shanktown, what's dangerous to US and what's dangerous to OUR CHARACTERS are two very, very, very different things. If you're not playing them as superheroic/legendary once you're out of the first couple levels where you are realistically killed by a single bad hit, you are playing the wrong system. This is a high fantasy game, you are only going to lessen everyone's enjoyment of it if you try to shoehorn realism in. It doesn't really belong here, and as some classes can attest, all it does is get in the way most of the time if you don't have out and out magic to become immune to people trying to crowbar unnecessary realism into describing what you can do. You're not realistic. You will never be realistic if you gain more than a couple levels in this game. Dragons and giants exist and function in PF's laws of physics. Magic is real, abundant, and easy. Realism packed its bags and LEFT.
"Well, this would obviously kill you" is a path I do not recommend. That way lies madness. Once you open the door to that when a dude takes a power-dive but the fall damage isn't so bad, you've opened the door to "OK, smart guy, how did the wizard survive the T-Rex taking a bite out of him and swallowing him whole just because he had Greater False Life up? I think we've established after the mountain incident HP isn't enough." There's way too many...
There is no need to even bring real world into this, Golarion is not consistent with itself at all.
This page particularly is a good example. If you were to use this as reference, PC lvl 1 Rogue would be as powerful individual as Golarion-based common pickpocket. You were right to say that Golarion humans are not Earth humans, but to say that you get few levels and you become a hero is very much false. Well, heroic in your power at least. Anyone can be a hero if people decide so, even against the will of the one. Looking at this chart, it seems a standard viking is a lvl 8 NPC, and we are talking about PC classes here. Are you saying vikings in general are superhumans by Golarion standards? Or are they merely very strong humans by Golarion standards? Hell, while this page states generic General as lvl 11 Fighter, I have faint memory of APs where it was definitely not that. PC are not even close to being a notable people at lvl 5.
Also as a reminder, HP is not Meat Points. HP is a massive abstraction, to the point that damage and hit points have almost no narrative power. Something that runs out of hit points is dead and something that has no run out of them is not-dead. Yes yes, dying and stable, but that is beside the point. You do not get more meatier with each level, but tougher in some abstract sense. There will always be a moment where the abstraction punches immersion, that no way out of that.
A 20th lvl fighter can grapple a whale.
Even that's selling a 20th level fighter short. A 20th level fighter with some focus in grappling can grapple a creature that can swallow whales.
A 20th lvl fighter can grapple a whale.Even that's selling a 20th level fighter short. A 20th level fighter with some focus in grappling can grapple a creature that can swallow whales.
Yep, probably I wasn't clear with the example. I'm not talking about a 20th lvl grappler with feats like improved grapple and weapon training unarmed strikes.
I'm talking about an average sword and board fighter, with exactly 0 feats devoted to grappling, doing it naked: STR 15 +2 racial +5 lvl = 22, or +6 STR modifier. Plus 20 BAB, that's 26 CMB, which grapples a CMD 37 whale with 11 in the die roll
Heck, probably even an *archer* fighter could do it, specially with items :).
Had I known this thread would have died shortly after I posted in it I would have waited later.
Falling rules I see as a necessary evil. If during the course of a sweet battle atop a silly high structure my villain gets pushed off I want him to survive and get away. Likewise I would rather the PCs survive a fall than not.
So in my group it's one of those things that doesn't make sense but remains true as long as no one calls attention to it.
Lava on the other hand is a problem.
- Torger
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That reminds me of that movie "The Other Guys". The first 10 minutes is basically about what happens when the heroes start taking their danger for granted.
Falling rules I see as a necessary evil. If during the course of a sweet battle atop a silly high structure my villain gets pushed off I want him to survive and get away. Likewise I would rather the PCs survive a fall than not.
So in my group it's one of those things that doesn't make sense but remains true as long as no one calls attention to it.
Yeah, it's one thing for the hero to fall from the cliff, pick himself off the ground and go "Wow, that was a lucky fall. Can't believe I survived it. Healing, please."
Another entirely for him to internalize that he can't be killed by 200' falls and act on that knowledge.
Exactly that, and my group is pretty good about maintaining that implicit gentleman's agreement.
- Torger
We have certified cases of real humans surviving falls at terminal velocity, yet it's less realistic than enduring a dragon blast in the face. Go figure.
Most of them don't follow up that fall with a fight to the death against a horde of orcs.
Spending months (if not years) in traction is the more likely follow-up.
Still the dragon blast in the face. Or the fireball. Or the critical hit with a Scythe.
The terminal velocity survivals ARE freakish accidents. I believe that, without exception, they all ended up falling onto snow-packed mountain slopes that could absorb some of the momentum of their fall, and all of them still wound up with broken bones.
That's a mite different then cloud-diving onto a stony plateau, open desert, or bustling plaza below. Furthermore, KNOWING you'll absolutely be able to get up and walk away.
==Aelryinth
But almost no different than taking an high level evocation spell in the face.
Meteor Swarm deals slightly more damage yet you don't make the Fighter die on the spot on a failed save.
I didn't think it was about breaking the game. I thought it was purely about "realism".
We know things about mundane threats - so when it's a legitimate, tactical choice to swim through lava or fall from orbit it seems silly. Nobody knows how hot a dragon's breath is - so it doesn't seem silly to think about expecting to survive it (even if in-game, it's basically the same thing).
I think it's an emotional response, not a logical objection.
Nobody knows how hot a dragon's breath is
A CR19 Red Dragon can melt stone.
As in becomes molten lava
That was kind of my point - "even if in-game, it's basically the same thing". The jarring isn't a logical thing, it's that our imagination baulks at the thought of swimming through lava (which we can picture in the real world) but not at shrugging off a dragon breath (where we have no real world experience/knowledge).
It's an emotional reaction to the image, not a logical objection to the result.
Swimming through lava is an overstatement anyways. Without some protection from fire damage even a 20th level Fighter endures a couple of rounds at most.
Even a falling damage with an average of 70 and capping at 120 can be crippling without some investment in Con.
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Did I post my hybrid Wounds and Vigor/wound thresholds system in this one? Eh, no matter. The point is, it divorces "meat" and "not dying" a bit so it's a bit of an easier pill to swallow.
I like to think of less like "surviving a torrent of flame that can liquefy rock" and more like "that was a close one, but you're definitely feeling the battle fatigue".
Swimming through lava is an overstatement anyways. Without some protection from fire damage even a 20th level Fighter endures a couple of rounds at most.
Even a falling damage with an average of 70 and capping at 120 can be crippling without some investment in Con.
Sure. The specifics aren't really important. But to answer kestral287's question of "what's the difference?" between fantasy hazards and real world hazards - my point is that it's not about breaking the game, it's about our emotional response to imagining possible things versus impossible things.
Sure. The specifics aren't really important. But to answer kestral287's question of "what's the difference?" between fantasy hazards and real world hazards - my point is that it's not about breaking the game, it's about our emotional response to imagining possible things versus impossible things.Swimming through lava is an overstatement anyways. Without some protection from fire damage even a 20th level Fighter endures a couple of rounds at most.
Even a falling damage with an average of 70 and capping at 120 can be crippling without some investment in Con.
If you have ever met a level 20 person, then you would know they can swim in lava with no problem so it's very possible. If you can't imagine it, the issue I think is that you have never met a level 20 person.
I certainly think that there's no such thing as level either - just like hit points and experience points aren't analogs to anything real.
That doesn't change the point though - people respond to the game's modelling of mundane threats differently from fantastic threats. I think the different response is emotive, not rational. If you think that's wrong, why do you think they respond differently?
Well, it's probably because most mundane threats are not from an enemy. A dragon's fire breath, no matter how hot it is, is still its attack. An exertion of its power to try and destroy you. It's kinda the nature of a power struggle to resist it. Lava and falling, however, are not something trying to kill you. It's something dangerous you die to.
Ah Queen of the Demonweb Pits. What a memory. The penultimate module to the first real 'adventure path' TSR ever made.You think you know what that word means, but you're wrong.
You are correct sir. Thank you for pointing out that mistake.
I should have used the word ultimate or pinnacle.