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I'm writing a module that I hope to publish as a PDF. However, my art budget is very limited. The way I see it, I have 4 options.
- No Art: Pretty self explanatory, the module would be text only.
- Buy Cheap Art: Spend about $100-200 and buy 10-12 B&W pieces and maybe a color cover page. I have never commissioned art before, so IDK what kind of quality I could get with this amount.
- Beg: Hope that there are some philanthropic or beginner artists who would license their art to me for cover credit and maybe a cut of the profits (if there are any).
- Draw it myself: This is probably the least favorable option b/c I am an horrible artist.
What would be more likely to turn you off of a product, Bad Art or No Art?
If there are any artists who are interested in working with me on this project, please drop me a line at radunnam@gmail.com
Thanks.
EDIT: fixed some typos.
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B&W pics of NPCs and action shots of the major encounters. I'm not really sure about any of the specifics yet.
The best case scenario for me would be to get portraits of six major NPCs and 6-8 action shots in B&W and a cover piece in color, for less than $200, but I don't know if this is reasonable.
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B&W pics of NPCs and action shots of the major encounters. I'm not really sure about any of the specifics yet.
The best case scenario for me would be to get portraits of six major NPCs and 6-8 action shots in B&W and a cover piece in color, for less than $200, but I don't know if this is reasonable.
There are some stock fantasy art packages that you can get, I think Owen Stevens uses them and I know Steve from Rite publishing uses them. The quality isn't stellar but it's decent. You can probably talk to them about where to purchase them. You get a fairly large selection of images to sort though.
I can also give you the names of some decent freelancers who are from the community if you want a few unique pieces.
I'm writing a module that I hope to publish as a PDF. However, my art budget is very limited. The way I see it, I have 4 options.
- No Art: Pretty self explanatory, the module would be text only.
- Buy Cheap Art: Spend about $100-200 and buy 10-12 B&W pieces and maybe a color cover page. I have never commissioned art before, so IDK what kind of quality I could get with this amount.
- Beg: Hope that there are some philanthropic or beginner artists who would license their art to me for cover credit and maybe a cut of the profits (if there are any).
- Draw it myself: This is probably the least favorable option b/c I am an horrible artist.
What would be more likely to turn you off of a product, Bad Art or No Art?
If there are any artists who are interested in working with me on this project, please drop me a line at radunnam@gmail.com
Thanks.
EDIT: fixed some typos.
I would go with the 2nd option, and then maybe the 1st option. Last would be the 3rd option with an agreement of X% of the sales or they get a cut until they Y dollars are made. If you can't draw I would not do it, unless the word in question is intended to be comical. In the last situation the people might beleive it was intended and not just bad drawing skills.
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B&W pics of NPCs and action shots of the major encounters. I'm not really sure about any of the specifics yet.
The best case scenario for me would be to get portraits of six major NPCs and 6-8 action shots in B&W and a cover piece in color, for less than $200, but I don't know if this is reasonable.
Probably fine if you're getting artists like myself, and you're not buying exclusive rights to the art, thus the artist retains their IP rights.
Basic B&W Ink for the NPCs? I have time for NPC portraits atm, but not action scenes. I'm not a cover artist, and that's where the biggest chunk will come from.
How are you handling the Cartography?
What about editing?
I'm writing a module that I hope to publish as a PDF. However, my art budget is very limited. The way I see it, I have 4 options.
Check DriveThruRPG for their stock art. There is lots and lots of stock art you can get, for relatively little money. We use some stock art as filler in our products, but rely on original art mostly and it is our number one expense and we have to budget carefully for it.
Robert
4 Winds Fantasy Gaming
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wraithstrike and hunter1828: Thanks for the input. Stock art is someting I hadn't even thought about. Thanks for the tip.
Probably fine if you're getting artists like myself, and you're not buying exclusive rights to the art, thus the artist retains their IP rights.
Basic B&W Ink for the NPCs? I have time for NPC portraits atm, but not action scenes. I'm not a cover artist, and that's where the biggest chunk will come from.
How are you handling the Cartography?
What about editing?
I am open to anything that gets art in my module, so stock art and licensing (opposed to buying) art sound like my best options.
I will post a description of the pieces I'm looking for in the next couple of days so that you are any other interested artist can see exactly what I am looking for.
As to the maps, I'm decent enough at cartography and pretty good with Photoshop, so I don't think that will be an issue. However, I will post a description of the maps for the module in case any cartographers are interested.
Thanks again to everyone for the input.
I was looking through some of the possible stock art awhile back, and some of the comments had me worried. On some of them, there seems to be some confusion on the person's right to use the purchased artwork in a professional product. So make sure you get as much information as you can before making any purchases.
Also, talk to the art department at your local college, you may be able to find some art students willing to (1) work for cheap, and (2) looking to get some credit in a published work so they can put it on their resume.
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Also, talk to the art department at your local college, you may be able to find some art students willing to (1) work for cheap, and (2) looking to get some credit in a published work so they can put it on their resume.
That is a GREAT idea!
Back when I was in art school, I would have jumped at a chance like this!
I would say bad art is worse than no art. Mind you, my definition of bad art is "no connection or relevance to the source material." More than anything though, bad layout is a huge turnoff for me. Bad layout kills any chance of a sale for me (unless it's really on my ZOMG GOTTA HAVE list).
I would say bad art is worse than no art. Mind you, my definition of bad art is "no connection or relevance to the source material." More than anything though, bad layout is a huge turnoff for me. Bad layout kills any chance of a sale for me (unless it's really on my ZOMG GOTTA HAVE list).
I would agree with this entirely. And if you just have straight text down the page, it is bad layout. Too much text can easily make a page overwhelming. Break it up, however you have to, to convey the information efficiently. Tables and things are your friend, and art helps a lot.
How is it that you have the opinion that $200 won't get you good art???
In my one and only published adventure (so far) Kaidan: The Gift - Part 1 my coverart is full color and cost me $75, another artist provided both color and b/w art for $50 - 5 pieces. My one pro illustrator (Mark Hyzer who paints Magic the Gathering art) charged me $400 so far for over 20 pieces of high quality b/w art, of which 3 pieces are in my adventure, and that cost me $60. So for total expenditure in Adventure 1, I have $185 invested - and it all looks top quality.
I needed a few extra pieces, which I created myself, however I am a decent artist - note I'm a pro cartographer, so all the maps were done by me, and the adventure features 12 maps in all.
I have even used a few - three I think of public domain art (Japanese Ukiyo-e prints that are 200 plus years old), but then my setting is feudal Japan based, so the art worked. Except for these few public domain works, all my art is original top quality stuff - and didn't cost me a fortune.
You should look for prospective artists you like at DeviantArt.com, ConceptArt.com and a few other similar sites - ask for pricing. You'd be surprised. You will find those who charge too much (relatively speaking), but you can just as easily find reasonably priced artists who can give you a deal.
To prove my point, here are links to some of the art in my adventure...
Cover Design by Jan Pospisil:
Cover art
B/W interior piece by Mark Hyzer - Same-bito (Shark Shape-changer):
Shark man
Simon Turnbull - a Samurai piece:
Samurai
One of my maps for the adventure - Agoya Shrine encounter scale map:
Shrine
GP
I love the cover on the The Gift.
Lucky for me, because I am a graphic designer with years of layout experience, the layout was done completely by me - didn't pay a dime for that. Same is true for my cartography, but that's a more rare skill.
GP
PS: thanks Kaidan Booster - you are my most solid fan! :P
I'm writing a module that I hope to publish as a PDF. However, my art budget is very limited. The way I see it, I have 4 options.
- No Art: Pretty self explanatory, the module would be text only.
- Buy Cheap Art: Spend about $100-200 and buy 10-12 B&W pieces and maybe a color cover page. I have never commissioned art before, so IDK what kind of quality I could get with this amount.
- Beg: Hope that there are some philanthropic or beginner artists who would license their art to me for cover credit and maybe a cut of the profits (if there are any).
- Draw it myself: This is probably the least favorable option b/c I am an horrible artist.
What would be more likely to turn you off of a product, Bad Art or No Art?
If there are any artists who are interested in working with me on this project, please drop me a line at radunnam@gmail.com
Thanks.
EDIT: fixed some typos.
I would say it all depends, but it is very possible to get everything you want. I think I will send you a email and talk about this in more detail.
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Sean, that is an excellent idea. The Community College in my town has a fairly big art department.
GP, I've never bought art before, so I wasn't sure about what kind of quality I could get for my budget. You have happily proven me wrong. The pieces you linked are exactly the quality I was hoping to get. Your advice will help me a lot. Thanks.
Pres man, Lillith, and Caineach, thanks bunches for the tips.
No art is the worst.
Bad Art that insults the buyer, that's the worst too.
If you want money for it you have to withstand the comparison to other products.
Sigurd
Creative Director
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I prefer no art to bad art myself. No art = your product stands completely on the words alone. Bad art = at first glance, if the art's this bad, then why should I bother reading the words since they're probably just as bad as the art? With good layout and font use and sidebar placement, you can make a no-art product easy and pleasant to read. But if I have to look at bad art while I'm reading... it doesn't matter how great the words are. That bad art will annoy me.
Of course, the fact that art is so subjective (what's bad to one person might be great to another) makes the whole problem so much more complicated...
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I prefer no art to bad art myself. No art = your product stands completely on the words alone. Bad art = at first glance, if the art's this bad, then why should I bother reading the words since they're probably just as bad as the art? With good layout and font use and sidebar placement, you can make a no-art product easy and pleasant to read. But if I have to look at bad art while I'm reading... it doesn't matter how great the words are. That bad art will annoy me.
Of course, the fact that art is so subjective (what's bad to one person might be great to another) makes the whole problem so much more complicated...
A person would have to be blind to be subjective enough to consider my artwork as anything but horrible. No offense to any one who might be visually impaired and reading this.
No offense to any one who might be visually impaired and reading this.I just realized how idiotic I sounded when I wrote that. That will teach me to post while doped up on cough syrup.
Actually, it came off as a piece of wit. Of course you have now ruined the illusion that it was intentional so...
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Actually, it came off as a piece of wit. Of course you have now ruined the illusion that it was intentional so...No offense to any one who might be visually impaired and reading this.I just realized how idiotic I sounded when I wrote that. That will teach me to post while doped up on cough syrup.
Yes, I know. I am an idiot. <facepalm>
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I am sitting in the exact same boat as Visigoth. A buddy and I are working on getting some adventures ready to PDF publish. I can do the cartography well enough, and our cover art ideas I can do (worked as a photographer for 15 years). The interior art has me stymied. I like the ideas suggested a LOT.
LMPjr007, if you have time to share some ideas, my email is oclark86 (at) gmail (dot) com.
We are of course, strapped for cash, as everyone is. We DON'T want the adventures to look cheap, but cheap is all we have at the moment.
No offense to any one who might be visually impaired and reading this.
DUDE THAT WAS PRICELESS MADE ME LMAO!
One more piece of advice I've learned in my recent stint as an Art Director for my own work.
When I first conceived of my "cover art" idea, I had seven people in the design - the BBEG, two samurai guards, and a party of four adventurers. The difference in price between a piece with one person and two is pretty big, which meant asking an artist to create a piece with seven people was crazy expensive!
You'll notice that the cover for The Gift - Part 1, only has the BBEG looking at the gift before him. Its actually a smarter piece focused on the BBEG and the party's contribution to the story (the gift itself.) A better piece of art all around. But I reshaped my initial cover idea, to one or fewer people in the piece based on $$$.
Jan Pospisil who did my cover art, has also already done the covers for adventure 2 and 3 in my intro mini-campaign of three adventures, gave me a deal on the third piece, even though there is two people in the piece, as the idea of the art intrigued her, so she did that one at her one person price.
The cover design shows a samurai and European styled fighter in a sword duel - the idea of East meets West with crossed swords inspired her to give me a better deal to do it!
Sneak Preview of that cover art design (art only):
Duel
GP
I would say go no art instead of bad art. However, I also believe that you should go no art instead of mediocre art and no art instead of lots of good/great art. I prefer my RPG books to have sparse but high quality artwork. I quickly lose interest in the product if it is heavily littered with artwork that doesn't provide me anything useful, like depictions of equipment, unique items/weapons, and key NPCs/locations. One of the things that makes me immediately put a product down is if it has whole page artwork at the start of the chapter and nothing else. I buy RPG products for their words, not pictures, so when the art starts to crowd out the text I quickly lose interest. Its distracting and gets in the way.
I'm also one of those crazy people who gets annoyed when the margins are too wide and the text is too large. I want words!
Because of the expense of art, I don't see small publishers including lots of non-appropriate art - who can afford that except Paizo or the other big publishers.
You can't cater to everyone's needs. If you can't find affordable art, maybe don't include it, but normally no art means no product to me. Its got to have at least cover art and a half dozen appropriate pieces.
Lastly your point about font size - it depends on what you think is too big. I try to go at least 12 point, but then I need reading glasses to read a phone book anymore. Since many of your potential customers are older gamers like me (47 years old), if you use too small a font size, its almost unreadable.
In fact, I think the font in the Core Rules is too small, looks like 10 point font to me, which is barely readable for us old guys! Actually the use of background art behind the text, I think is a terrible layout decision, but you'll find it in all WotC books as well as Paizo. If the font size is large enough and the background art is subtle enough, it works, but usually its just distracting to read.
GP
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Go with no art. If you can't afford good art definitely go with no art.
I often wonder why PDF publishing RPG companies (Paizo included) don't offer text and map only PDFs of their supplements at a reduced cost. I would buy these in a second. Bad art (at least art that I don't like) can ruin a product for me immediately. In fact, this almost happened with Rise of the Runelords after I saw the art in Burnt Offerings. A no art reduced cost PDF should always be an option.
Speaking from a publisher's perspective, making a no-art version of a product requires a full second go at layout. It isn't as easy as simply deleting the art out of the original version, because the text is wrapped around the art - remove the artwork and all your formatting is off. The neat way that you had the full stat block for an NPC in one column? Gone. The table within a spell description suddenly spills over into the next column, so you have to move it. And where before, every chapter ended neatly at the end of a page with little to no white space, you now have maybe a quarter page of text spilling onto a final page and all that ugly white space left over, so you have to try to free up a quarter page of space earlier in the chapter.
If you're paying someone to do layout, and want them to make a second version like that, they deserve (and if they're professionals, will ask for) additional pay. Even if you have the layout done for free (I do our layout for our print products, and believe me, I don't get a paycheck!), that takes an additional amount of time that often can't be afforded. And I'm sure most would want to pay less for a no-art version, but seeing as the art was already procured for the original (we already had to pay for it), and it took additional time (and possibly money) to make the no-art version, we as publishers could end up losing money on the no-art version.
Connie
4WFG
I'm in the same boat as you but took the route of trying to improve my art skills as I work on my product. Probably will end up trying to commission some cheap-but-good art from one of the artists on a forum (deviantart, conceptart, etc.)
Bad art can really ruin the presentation of a product. I *love* Steve Jackson Games' GURPS 4th edition but a lot of the art is pretty bad (they used to stick with black-and-white passable art but went with color this time and didn't budget much for art) *especially* in Magic, where the artist mostly did pretty crummy Poser paint-overs. I still like the book...but BOB I hate looking at the pictures.
M
Well, them too. :) I don't really know any, though...though I am aware of Hugo Solis (did a lot of the wayfinder stuff, right?). Maybe we should get a list of "local" artists together so that we can know who to approach for commissions.
I myself, along with GP, make a decent map (IMHO, anyway) if somebody's looking. Here's one of mine along with a work in progress for the community worldbuilding project over at Cartographer's Guild. Look up some of GP's in that forum...he's got some great stuff.
M
Well, them too. :) I don't really know any, though...though I am aware of Hugo Solis (did a lot of the wayfinder stuff, right?). Maybe we should get a list of "local" artists together so that we can know who to approach for commissions.
I myself, along with GP, make a decent map (IMHO, anyway) if somebody's looking. Here's one of mine along with a work in progress for the community worldbuilding project over at Cartographer's Guild. Look up some of GP's in that forum...he's got some great stuff.
M
Check out the products description for Wayfinder #1 and Wayfinder #2 - they list contributing artists. (Oh, hey, look, they're free downloads too!) Also, this thread here.
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Check out the products description for Wayfinder #1 and Wayfinder #2 - they list contributing artists. (Oh, hey, look, they're free downloads too!) Also, this thread here.
Nice!
There is also the option of doing good stock art, Empty Room Studios, Shaman Stock art and of course Cerebus Illustrations all have good inexpensive stock art packs. (with good previews of them)
Sneak Preview of that cover art design (art only):
DuelGP
Woo-h...er, Banzai!
You should post this preview in the Kaidan thread as well to stoke interest in the next release.
Bad art can kill a product, while no art can just make it appear to look like a bad product. But these is MORE than enough stock art available for you to purchase at a resonable price.
If you're looking for art, let me know and perhaps I can help you out. For a sample of my style, check out Wayfinder 2 pg. 42
Cymex
Cymex, why not link to your gallery (if you have your own page or a page over at Deviantart) from your profile? Artists here get a lot of traffic that way.
If you need any help with the HTML just ask.
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If you're looking for art, let me know and perhaps I can help you out. For a sample of my style, check out Wayfinder 2 pg. 42
Cymex
Cymex, why not link to your gallery (if you have your own page or a page over at Deviantart) from your profile? Artists here get a lot of traffic that way.
If you need any help with the HTML just ask.
While I do have a page on DA, I'm not sure how to do the linky stuff to my page :(
While I do have a page on DA, I'm not sure how to do the linky stuff to my page :(
When you reply to a post, click on the "Show" button next to the text where it says "BBCode tags you can use:" . That will explain how to use the code to link stuff. :)
Cymex, click the "BBCode tags you can use" at the bottom of the Reply window.
You need to place a name for your page as a link
Do this without the spaces, as above example and your linky should work.
GP
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Because of the expense of art, I don't see small publishers including lots of non-appropriate art - who can afford that except Paizo or the other big publishers.
You can't cater to everyone's needs. If you can't find affordable art, maybe don't include it, but normally no art means no product to me. Its got to have at least cover art and a half dozen appropriate pieces.
Lastly your point about font size - it depends on what you think is too big. I try to go at least 12 point, but then I need reading glasses to read a phone book anymore. Since many of your potential customers are older gamers like me (47 years old), if you use too small a font size, its almost unreadable.
In fact, I think the font in the Core Rules is too small, looks like 10 point font to me, which is barely readable for us old guys! Actually the use of background art behind the text, I think is a terrible layout decision, but you'll find it in all WotC books as well as Paizo. If the font size is large enough and the background art is subtle enough, it works, but usually its just distracting to read.
GP
I SOOOOO have to agree with font size. Paizo has those Gamemastery cards that are so popular. I find them absolutely useless. The font is so small I can't read it. Might as well be written in Chinese, Greek or Russian for all I know! I think font size should be a MINIMUM of 12 (though I admit in my own layout I am resorting to occasional uses of 10 for reproducing very long rules- I may rethink that as the document takes better form.)
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So I have some questions about layout...
any advice where to look for basic rules of laying out print documents? I know of TONS of really good sites for writers, but what about layouts?
Any advice on the actual layout? Who did the layout for Wayfinder?
I know not to use one column, it is harder to read. But then the question becomes, 2 or 3 columns, and why one over the other?
Should side-bars be used? And if so, when?
Okay back on topic...
someone mentioned crappy Poser art. I have to agree the VAST amount of "art" produced by Poser is sub-par at the best. But there is some amazing stuff as well. Then there is some decent stuff too.
Here is a brief list of some stuff from Renderocity.com to check out. Some REALLY good, some good enough. WARNING SOME IMAGES MAY NOT BE SAFE FOR WORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Gathering
Almost...
A Noble Man
Barberella
The Twin Axes of Winterwulf III NSFW
Behind the Iron Mask I think this image could inspire a really good adventure!
PinBot
Magesty
The Girl and the Snake NSFW
Queen of Storms
Some are better than others and not all use Poser, some are 2D (Photoshop created for example). Not even going to show my stuff on there as it is NOT that good... yet!
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Bad art (at least art that I don't like) can ruin a product for me immediately. In fact, this almost happened with Rise of the Runelords after I saw the art in Burnt Offerings. A no art reduced cost PDF should always be an option.
Case in point on the matter of art's subjectivity.
I'm still sad that many of those early artists don't do Pathfinder stuff any more, particularly the original "race line-up" guy.
So I have some questions about layout...
any advice where to look for basic rules of laying out print documents? I know of TONS of really good sites for writers, but what about layouts?
Pick up the Non-Designer's Design Book. This book taught me more about graphic design then anything I have ever read. It is AMAZING!
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Pick up the Non-Designer's Design Book. This book taught me more about graphic design then anything I have ever read. It is AMAZING!So I have some questions about layout...
any advice where to look for basic rules of laying out print documents? I know of TONS of really good sites for writers, but what about layouts?
Yeah, I agree - Robin Williams (the author, not the comic :) writes very good books on these kinds of topics. Her similar book on fonts and typography is very good as well.
Regarding type/font size, I can certainly see why those with poorer eye sight might want larger font sizes, and I feel for you, but, from a graphic design standpoint, the general consensus is that 12 pt. is about the max for body copy in a print product - 10 pt. or 11 pt. is more common.
As for art, I agree that bad art kills a project. It says to the reader "the art is poor and/or amateurish ... the writing most likely is as well"
A good, clean, well designed and laid out product using things like classy pull outs and pull quotes, nice drop caps, charts etc and maybe a few small, well done pieces of art (even BW) is a MUCH better way to go if you have a tight budget. I've done plenty of design projects with out any art at all.
Regarding type/font size, I can certainly see why those with poorer eye sight might want larger font sizes, and I feel for you, but, from a graphic design standpoint, the general consensus is that 12 pt. is about the max for body copy in a print product - 10 pt. or 11 pt. is more common.
I did qualify myself and said, I'd recommend 12 point, as I agree that's the max body font size one should use. 10 point isn't bad and fairly standard, but add background art behind that size font, and readability goes out the window - as in the Core Rules and the Bestiary. I find both hard to read without reading glasses.
Add bulleted lists and numbered lists as part of your layout inclusions that help layout. Anything that breaks the walls of text, when you can. I have had some experience doing layout for my college paper, back in the day, and sometimes complete paragraphs should be broken up into consumable chunks of multiple paragraphs, especially for long paragraphs. Layout is an art unto itself.
GP