Mixing Brawler & Monk: AC Bonus and Unarmed Damage


Rules Questions


I'm working on a Brawler build, and for several reasons, I'm taking a 1 level dip into the Master of Many Styles Monk Archetype. I've got it all figured out except where the AC bonus and Unarmed Damage are concerned. The AC bonus of the Brawler and Monk are identical, save for the fact that the Monk also adds her Wisdom to her AC, and the Brawler may still wear light armor. The class features have the same name, and are both modified in the same way by a Monk's Robe wondrous item. It's the same story with the Unarmed Damage.

My question is this: would the AC bonus from each class "stack" as separate class features with the same name, or is it reasonable to combine them like sneak attack damage from levels of both rogue and ninja? What would "stacking" the unarmed damage from 4 levels of Brawler and 4 levels of Monk even look like?

It seems that if you wanted your monk levels to count toward the AC bonus total (and retain your wisdom bonus to AC), you would have to refrain from wearing armor in spite of also being a brawler. With unarmed damage it especially seems like monk levels ought to be treated as brawler levels (and vice versa) for the purposes of advancing this ability. In other words a Character with 4 Brawler and 4 Monk levels seems like it should have an unarmed damage of 1d10 instead of 1d8 (or *shudder* 2d8). I'd also think that a character that has 3 Brawler and 1 Monk level ought to be at a +1 AC bonus.

It's definitely not in the RAW, but seeing as this is a new class I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that this is what the RAI might look like. If anyone has anything from Paizo staff on this issue, I'd deeply appreciate it.


Are there a difference between the two posts that we have to spot?
The unarmed attack damage dosent stack you just get the best. They get the armor bonus form both classes and there is no stacking issue. Unless you have very high wisdom, and even if you do most likely, you want to wear a brawling armor as soon as you can get one.
Edit: there was a copy of the OP just above this one when i first posted this:)


Monk and Brawler unarmed strike damage don't stack. You get the better of the two.

While you can receive both Monk and Brawler AC bonuses to AC, they don't stack in the way you're hoping.
You must meet the requirements of each individually in order to gain their respective bonuses.

If you're wearing armor, you'll lose any bonus to AC from your monk level(s).
If you're wearing armor heavier than light, you'll lose any bonus to AC from your brawler level(s).

The Brawler's Martial Training ability is poorly worded - expect to see table variation on how it's handled. It's especially unclear how a multiclassed brawler/monk would apply an item such as the Monk's Robe. I'm going to assume you can only apply it to one class at a time.

A Brawler(4)/Monk(4) would have:

Monk(4): Unarmed 1d8, +1 +wis AC
Brawler(4): Unarmed 1d8, +1 AC
Thus, combined(M4/B4): Unarmed 1d8, +2 +wis AC

Wearing a Monk's Robe should increase your Monk's damage to 1d10 and add +1 AC, thus:
Unarmed 1d10, +3 +wis AC

(Note, a Bralwer3/Monk1 doesn't combine the levels to get +1AC. Each will individually give +0 AC.)

Silver Crusade

Byakko wrote:

A Brawler(4)/Monk(4) would have:

Monk(4): Unarmed 1d8, +1 +wis AC
Brawler(4): Unarmed 1d8, +1 AC
Thus, combined(M4/B4): Unarmed 1d8, +2 +wis AC

Wearing a Monk's Robe should increase your Monk's damage to 1d10 and add +1 AC, thus:
Unarmed 1d10, +3 +wis AC

In your example, by RAW, wouldn't wearing a Monk's Robe make the total AC +2 as each the Brawler and Monk AC bonus would have an effective level of 9?

Martial Training (Ex) wrote:
At 1st level, a brawler counts her total brawler levels as both fighter levels and monk levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats. She also counts as both a fighter and a monk for feats and magic items that have different effects based on whether the character has levels in those classes (such as Stunning Fist and a monk's robe). This ability does not automatically grant feats normally granted to fighters and monks based on class level, namely Stunning Fist.

Emphasis mine. Nothing in the Martial Training or Monk's Robe description says "unless she has levels in Monk, which only one class can be applied." At least that's how I would interpret RAW.


slin2678: Note, the line directly before what you quoted:

Quote:
The Brawler's Martial Training ability is poorly worded - expect to see table variation on how it's handled. It's especially unclear how a multiclassed brawler/monk would apply an item such as the Monk's Robe. I'm going to assume you can only apply it to one class at a time.

-----------

Martial Training (Ex) wrote: wrote:
At 1st level, a brawler counts her total brawler levels as both fighter levels and monk levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats. She also counts as both a fighter and a monk for feats and magic items that have different effects based on whether the character has levels in those classes (such as Stunning Fist and a monk's robe). This ability does not automatically grant feats normally granted to fighters and monks based on class level, namely Stunning Fist.

The bolded line is where the problem comes in. When it comes to magic items, you count as a fighter and a monk... but it doesn't say you count as a fighter and a monk equal to your brawler level for this purpose. While it might be assumed that the "also counts" implies that the first sentence's text about levels also applies to magic items, it doesn't actually say this clearly, and thus remains ambiguous.

-----------

Finally, can the Monk's Robe be applied to two different classes at the same time?
My intuition is that you must pick a single class to apply it to based on rules and FAQs such as:

Quote:

Extra Channel: If I take this feat and I have more than one class with the ability to channel energy, do I have to assign the extra uses to a particular class when I choose the feat?

No. In effect, the feat gives you two "floating" uses of channel energy per day, and you can use them with any appropriate class you have which grants the channel energy ability.
For example, if you're a cleric/necromancer, each day you could use 1 channel as a cleric and 1 as a necromancer, 2 as a cleric and 0 as a necromancer, or 0 as a cleric and 2 as a necromancer.
Note that this does not give you an extra two uses of channel energy for *each* class that grants it—the feat gives you exactly two extra uses per day.

However, I fully admit this is just my opinion, and probably could use some official clarification.

Silver Crusade

Byakko, in regards to the second sentence of the Martial Training class feature, it wouldn't make sense to use Monk's Robe as an example since anyone can wear it (and only count as monk 5). And it does say "...whether the character has levels in those classes (such as Stunning Fist and a monk's robe)." To me, the intent is clear that if a Brawler would wear Monk's Robes, replace all she'd be counted as Brawler level +5 for AC bonus and unarmed strike damage.

The example of Extra Channel not applying to two classes may be an apples-to-oranges comparison as the feat specifically adds to the number channel uses, not modify any class feature(s) that have Channel Energy.

A more applicable comparison might be Weapon Training. From the boards, the consensus seems to be that a Fighter 5/Monk (Sohei) 6 Weapon Training class feature stacks if the Fighter chose a weapon group on the Sohei list, despite the difference in application (Sohei's can flurry and use ki strike on their weapon group weapons). Thus, if I took the Fighter levels first and chose Polearms as my weapon group, and then took 6 levels of Sohei and chose Bows, I would get +2 to Polearms and +1 to Bows and can flurry with both. Gloves of Dueling would add a +2 to both weapon groups.

Nothing in the Monk's Robe description says you can only apply the item effects to one class.

The counterargument is nothing in the item description says you can apply the bonuses to multiple class features of the same name since the item was written prior to the Brawler class.

Unless a FAQ or errata clarifies, by RAW, the AC bonus from Monk's Robe should apply to both classes for a multiclass Brawler/Monk.


slin2678 wrote:

Byakko, in regards to the second sentence of the Martial Training class feature, it wouldn't make sense to use Monk's Robe as an example since anyone can wear it (and only count as monk 5). And it does say "...whether the character has levels in those classes (such as Stunning Fist and a monk's robe)." To me, the intent is clear that if a Brawler would wear Monk's Robes, replace all she'd be counted as Brawler level +5 for AC bonus and unarmed strike damage.

...

The difference is that if you count as a monk, you can add your wisdom modifier to AC (which someone who is just wearing the robe, but is not a monk, cannot do).

My issue with applying the monk robe's bonus to both brawler and monk (at the same time), is that you're double dipping. This is something that is generally not allowed, so I would be surprised if this was the desired effect.

I'm guessing this rules block was written before you could multiclass brawler and monk, and thus didn't consider these sorts of situations.

Anyway, this is why I think it's poorly worded. There's many reasonable assumptions and interpretations that can be made, but it's possible to get some table variation as it isn't super clear how this is supposed to be handled.


Byakko wrote:
slin2678 wrote:

Byakko, in regards to the second sentence of the Martial Training class feature, it wouldn't make sense to use Monk's Robe as an example since anyone can wear it (and only count as monk 5). And it does say "...whether the character has levels in those classes (such as Stunning Fist and a monk's robe)." To me, the intent is clear that if a Brawler would wear Monk's Robes, replace all she'd be counted as Brawler level +5 for AC bonus and unarmed strike damage.

...

The difference is that if you count as a monk, you can add your wisdom modifier to AC (which someone who is just wearing the robe, but is not a monk, cannot do).

My issue with applying the monk robe's bonus to both brawler and monk (at the same time), is that you're double dipping. This is something that is generally not allowed, so I would be surprised if this was the desired effect.

I'm guessing this rules block was written before you could multiclass brawler and monk, and thus didn't consider these sorts of situations.

Anyway, this is why I think it's poorly worded. There's many reasonable assumptions and interpretations that can be made, but it's possible to get some table variation as it isn't super clear how this is supposed to be handled.

Count as monk means replace all the times it says monk in the item with Brawler and you're good.


Byakko wrote:
My issue with applying the monk robe's bonus to both brawler and monk (at the same time), is that you're double dipping. This is something that is generally not allowed, so I would be surprised if this was the desired effect.

Has the Robe of Arcane Heritage been clarified to work only for one type of BL powers if you are a sorcerer who takes Eldritch Heritage? (or anyone who manages to get powers from multiple BL)

I don't see why a Monk's Robe would be mechanically different in this regard.


Hmn, perhaps the Robe of Arcane Heritage only affects a single bloodline as it makes multiple references to a "particular sorcerer bloodline"? I dunno; it could easily be argued to be purely flavor text. In any case, I feel the description of the item implies that the writer didn't consider the possibility that the user could have multiple bloodlines.

My comment about double dipping is more from a balance perspective. You generally receive a specific benefit in return for a specific investment. (whether that be levels, feats, items, ability scores, etc). Receiving twice the benefits for the same cost typically doesn't happen, and most of these cases get specifically called out as exceptions. This isn't a waterproof argument or anything, just a suggestion on what the desired ruling should be considering the rules are uncertain enough to allow for reasonable interpretation.

Silver Crusade

I don't think so. At most it's +1 AC. I hardly think that's game breaking. Besides, most non-stacking rules seem to be for the same type of bonus. Brawler and Monk AC bonus are different types, so technically they're not the same ability.


Matthew Gilman wrote:


My question is this: would the AC bonus from each class "stack" as separate class features with the same name, or is it reasonable to combine them like sneak attack damage from levels of both rogue and ninja?

Just a side note, you can't combine Ninja and Rogue sneak attack. The Ninja is an alternate of the Rogue class. They work the same except that you can't take both classes, just like you can't be a Samurai/Cavalier.

"Alternate classes are standalone classes whose basic ideas are very close to established base classes, yet whose required alterations would be too expansive for an archetype. An alternate class operates exactly as a base class, save that a character who takes a level in an alternate class can never take a level in its associated class—a samurai cannot also be a cavalier, and vice versa."

One could be a rogue/slayer, since you can multi-class with hybrid classes.

Happy gaming :)

Liberty's Edge

no they don't stack. From ACG page 8

"While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, this usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don't stack unless specified."

Silver Crusade

Swordjockey wrote:

no they don't stack. From ACG page 8

"While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, this usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don't stack unless specified."

While the same name, these abilities are different. Brawler's AC bonus is a dodge bonus while monk is untyped. It's same as Monk and Sacred Fist. I believe it's been determined that their AC bonuses do stack but the Wis to AC is only counted once.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Mixing Brawler & Monk: AC Bonus and Unarmed Damage All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.