Would this work to stop Resurrection?


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Ok, the situation is as follows:

Spoiler:

The demons managed to kill an important NPC and got away with his head only. They had to leave the body behind because of the 50 pound limit on teleport. Normally just the body is enough to allow a Resurrection spell to bring the person back to life. I was wondering if the demons can stop this by animating the head as some sort of undead. If so, what kind of undead can a head be animated as?

I don't think trapping the soul would work because the NPC is already dead and his soul has already gone to the afterlife.


I think they can still be returned to life.


beheaded

Also a Vargouille from the crown of the kobold king, but that's an evil outsider, not an undead

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The only reliable way to stop ressurrection is some kind of soul trapping mechanism, such as the guilotines of Galt, or the Trap the Soul mechanic.

Then again, destroying the soul would also work.


Spoiler:

It's not that big of a deal. I'm just getting the vibe that the PCs are a little too cavalier about death at the moment. The PCs let the NPC die when he was taken hostage with the thought that they'd just raise him after the encounter was over. At this point, the cost for a raise dead or resurrection spell is not that big a deal for 8th level characters who are about to turn level 9.


Celanian wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Honestly, let them go for it. Just punish them for it.

Buckle down on those resources, don't hand out free gold. Watch them squirm as they realize that the magic item they want it a mere 4K out of reach, 4K that they would have had and then some if they didn't waste resources on raising.

Let that NPC belittle the PCs. What kind of protectors are they? Or better yet, have him be unwilling to return. After all, if you hear the call for resurrection come from a bunch of guys who you know didn't even raise a finger to try to save you, would you heed it?

Resurrection is an important resource for the game; it allows the game continue without breaking storylines or excluding a player when death befalls a character. However, it's not a crutch that the PCs should always rely on.


Celanian wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

They might have a bit too much gold if they're tossing it around like confetti for raise dead spells. Then again, clerics may demand more than just mere coin; after all, it is a very sacred blessing that they're bestowing upon them, so they would expect their back to be scratched as well. Geas for everybody!


Wowowowowowow

This is Resurrection they're using right? The one that requires a 10,000 gold diamond? The 7 or 8th level spell that requires you to be level 13?

I think there's quite a few missing pieces in this puzzle. How did they let the npc die exactly? Or did the demon teleport in, instagib the npc, and teleport out before the party had a chance to react? Because I've had that experience before and it is not fun being blamed for it.


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If it's better that an NPC not be resurrected, the NPC could just not respond to Resurrection attempts. Trying to revive someone from death is never a sure thing. Any death could be that character's final death, regardless of the state of the body.

Core Rulebook page 208 wrote:
Revivification against One's Will: A soul can't be returned to life if it doesn't wish to be. A soul knows the name, alignment, and patron deity (if any) of the character attempting to revive it and may refuse to return on that basis.

Perhaps that NPC's soul is now happily at rest with its deity. The fact that demons stole its head is trivial. The NPC's soul wasn't in its head. It's soul is already with its god. It has no plans to return to mortal life and mortal suffering. The party can try to resurrect it, but any such attempts will fail if it doesn't wish to return to mortal life.


Spoiler:

WotR campaign. PCs are with Sosiel when they fight Chorussina plus 3 babaus (who manage to gate in 2 additional babaus). After all is said and done, Chorussina flees and 1 PC and Sosiel are dropped unconscious along with 3 babaus killed. The 2 remaining babaus grab Sosiel's body and threaten to kill him, but are willing to release him for a powerful evil magic weapon called Soulshear. PCs are unwilling to trade the weapon for Sosiel so the demons decapitate him and teleport away. One of the PCs says that he was just going to cast raise dead on the body after the fight but didn't count on the decapitation.

The PCs made a perfectly valid choice not to let a powerful evil weapon get returned to the enemy. However I think the choice was very much diminished with their thought that they could keep the weapon plus their friend and not really lose anything except for gold.


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Funny thing resurrection, its a willing spell; so I think the question your PCs need to ask is "is he going to LET US resurect him after let him get killed." Because if the npc isn't willing poof goes the spell.


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

You're playing in Golarion, right? As I understand it, typically no soul can be returned to life except by powerful spells (i.e., true resurrection or the like) once it has been judged by Pharasma. There is no defined time it takes for that to happen; the convention is that for PCs, it doesn't happen fast. But for an NPC? Yeah, you could just say that Pharasma judged Sosiel already, and he has gone to join Shelyn.

(Edit: maybe not even true resurrection will work; see James Jacobs post here.)


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What was at stake between letting them kill the npc or give into the devils commands? If you give the PCs impossible choices, they're gonna respond in kind.


Spoiler:

The choice was between their friend and releasing a weapon that the PCs know is fairly powerful and evil. They don't know its full capabilities however.

I think either choice would've been a valid choice and I was ok with it going either way. It opens up a decent number of adventure storylines and character development no matter what. I just didn't like the idea that the PCs can weasel their way out of making a real choice because of easy access to resurrection type magics in the Pathfinder system.

I'm not sure how the PCs would've decided if this scenario was in some other game system where death would be final.


I'm pretty sure they would've still chosen to keep the nega-excalibur out of the hands of demons, and if their friend would really pull the 'HOW DARE YOU CHOOSE THE WORLD OVER ME!' card, then they're not really a friend worth keeping.

Yes, sadly magic in pathfinder gets pretty silly with how much you can bypass and ignore. Resurrection magic is still costly, and not always 100%, but getting rid of it isn't the right solution either.

Maybe turn this into a proper hook rather than seeking ways to punish your players for making a choice they thought was the right one at the time. 10,000 gold diamonds aren't exactly something you find at the farmers market after all.


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coyote6 wrote:

You're playing in Golarion, right? As I understand it, typically no soul can be returned to life except by powerful spells (i.e., true resurrection or the like) once it has been judged by Pharasma. There is no defined time it takes for that to happen; the convention is that for PCs, it doesn't happen fast. But for an NPC? Yeah, you could just say that Pharasma judged Sosiel already, and he has gone to join Shelyn.

(Edit: maybe not even true resurrection will work; see James Jacobs post here.)

@ the OP: Golarion does not have any official alteration to the resurrection spells. The director may thinks its cheap but without a rule the players may feel like you are playing with surprise rules. I would make it into a house rule if it bothers you.


I'm not going to house rule anything. Which is why I posted the original question about whether raising the head as undead would stop the process. I want everything to be official.


The demons could make the head into a Beheaded:

In brief, "A beheaded is a severed head or skull animated as a mindless undead sentinel that silently floats at eye level as it lies in wait for living prey or is sent out into the lands of the living to terrorize everyone it finds."

From Resurrection: You can resurrect someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed.

The players have the body (definitely a "small portion of the creature's body) so that should allow for the casting of Resurrection. However, since the head is now undead and hasn't been destroyed, I can easily see that being a reason the spell fails, thus engendering a quest.

Scarab Sages

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A Salve of the Second Chance is 800 gp to make and casts Resurrection on a target (yes, it is cheaper to make the salve than get a diamond for the spell). Then restoring the 2 negative levels (2560 gp paid to a 7th level cleric), and then you're good.
Between 2.8k and 4.16k and your character has a second life (albeit in a possibly different body). Not that expensive.

To the OP, there is nothing in the description of Reincarnate that impedes the PCs from Reincarnating an NPC, assuming "the subject's soul is free and willing to return" and "a creature that has not been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect" are satisfied.
If the demons managed to trap the soul somehow, raise the head as an undead, or the NPC happens to enjoy the afterlife he has earned then the PCs would have a problem.


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Yeah, I wouldn't punish them or waste the gold. Making the NPC unwilling to come back is fine, but have the cleric they go to perform a Speak with Dead spell first. It has no material cost, so it'd be pretty silly for any cleric to cast Resurrection without checking first.

If you just tell them their gold is wasted without any warning, they will be entirely justified if they feel betrayed by you, and that's not a place you want to be in as a GM.


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Sadly speak with dead requires the dead to physically speak.

In my experience that is pretty hard to do when one lacks a head.


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Mykull wrote:

The demons could make the head into a Beheaded:

In brief, "A beheaded is a severed head or skull animated as a mindless undead sentinel that silently floats at eye level as it lies in wait for living prey or is sent out into the lands of the living to terrorize everyone it finds."

From Resurrection: You can resurrect someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed.

The players have the body (definitely a "small portion of the creature's body) so that should allow for the casting of Resurrection. However, since the head is now undead and hasn't been destroyed, I can easily see that being a reason the spell fails, thus engendering a quest.

According to the black-tabbed section of my spellbook, both possibilities might occur at once. It would be interesting having to fight something with your own face.


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Opuk0 wrote:

Sadly speak with dead requires the dead to physically speak.

In my experience that is pretty hard to do when one lacks a head.

Good point, I forgot that clause. Find a wizard and whip out a Magic Mouth spell first, then. It works on objects, which a corpse is. Some room for interpretation there, but it works by RAW. ;D


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. . . That could lead to some interesting applications

Lends a whole new meaning to talking out your butt as well XD


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As a dead body is just an object, use Make Whole to fix the missing bits. :)


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Mykull wrote:

The demons could make the head into a Beheaded:

In brief, "A beheaded is a severed head or skull animated as a mindless undead sentinel that silently floats at eye level as it lies in wait for living prey or is sent out into the lands of the living to terrorize everyone it finds."

From Resurrection: You can resurrect someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed.

The players have the body (definitely a "small portion of the creature's body) so that should allow for the casting of Resurrection. However, since the head is now undead and hasn't been destroyed, I can easily see that being a reason the spell fails, thus engendering a quest.

I agree.


Celanian wrote:
** spoiler omitted **
unspoilered wrote:
One of the PCs says that he was just going to cast raise dead on the body after the fight but didn't count on the decapitation.

Raise Dead:

Quote:
While the spell closes mortal wounds and repairs lethal damage of most kinds, the body of the creature to be raised must be whole. Otherwise, missing parts are still missing when the creature is brought back to life.

No head = this will stop Raise Dead.

/cevah

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Opuk0 wrote:

Sadly speak with dead requires the dead to physically speak.

In my experience that is pretty hard to do when one lacks a head.

Actually, just taking out the jaw is good enough.


LazarX wrote:
Opuk0 wrote:

Sadly speak with dead requires the dead to physically speak.

In my experience that is pretty hard to do when one lacks a head.

Actually, just taking out the jaw is good enough.

Yep, as made evident by the Carrion Crown AP at several junctures.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

simply resurrect the guy with his head and throw him in a dungeon somewhere.

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You're the GM. You make the rules.

If you're running rules as written, then beheading will stop raise dead from working. Animating the head as an undead will stop the resurrection spell until the undead gets destroyed. Animating a body as an undead disrupts a creature's afterlife and prevents most methods of returning to life.


Yeah, a Beheaded will effectively stop any magic shenanigans. Hell, that one crawling hand undead would arguably do the same, though that's getting a bit silly. ;P


The PCs got a friendly druid to cast reincarnate before the enemies could turn the head into undead.

I think I'm going to add a house rule. Perhaps there is a 10% chance per level (max 100%) that a reincarnate/raise dead/resurrection will work on any non-PC with the chance decreasing by 20% per additional time after the first. Eventually Pharasma will get around to judging you.

At least death would be somewhat meaningful. It would also help stop shenanigans such as a paladin with Ultimate Mercy raising dozens of people during downtime at essentially no cost.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Celanian wrote:

The PCs got a friendly druid to cast reincarnate before the enemies could turn the head into undead.

I think I'm going to add a house rule. Perhaps there is a 10% chance per level (max 100%) that a reincarnate/raise dead/resurrection will work on any non-PC with the chance decreasing by 20% per additional time after the first. Eventually Pharasma will get around to judging you.

At least death would be somewhat meaningful. It would also help stop shenanigans such as a paladin with Ultimate Mercy raising dozens of people during downtime at essentially no cost.

resurrecting people is annoying anyway since it uses resources and thus causes you to be more likely to die later.


Not if you have a paladin with Ultimate Mercy. No resources used if it is done in downtime. Besides at very high levels, 5k-10k is relatively insignificant for a PC group.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Celanian wrote:
Not if you have a paladin with Ultimate Mercy. No resources used if it is done in downtime. Besides at very high levels, 5k-10k is relatively insignificant for a PC group.

are they high level? in general I just roll with the deaths.


8th level party at the time. 9th level now.


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Cuuniyevo wrote:

Yeah, I wouldn't punish them or waste the gold. Making the NPC unwilling to come back is fine, but have the cleric they go to perform a Speak with Dead spell first. It has no material cost, so it'd be pretty silly for any cleric to cast Resurrection without checking first.

If you just tell them their gold is wasted without any warning, they will be entirely justified if they feel betrayed by you, and that's not a place you want to be in as a GM.

This doesn't actually work, even if we had an intact head. Speak with dead is limited to what the creature knew in life. It isn't able to convey any information about the afterlife, including how happy or unhappy the soul is and whether they would desire a resurrection. The closest you could come is finding out whether they subject thought he would want to be resurrected if he died.

Personally, as a player, I would expect there to be a chance that an NPC wouldn't want to come back, and would spend my gold knowing that and certainly I wouldn't feel betrayed. Although the players should be aware that there is no guarantee.

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I don't really see why you need to punish the players for investing their wealth and resources to save an NPC. Even if the PCs had infinite wealth and easy access to the strongest resurrection spells in the game, it's still extremely annoying to raise someone and might lead to a TPK or forcing the party to abandon a quest. Keep in mind the PCs are at a level where it's trivial to physically travel to the afterlife, control minds, travel from city to city in the blink of an eye, and turn dragons into hamsters.


How would it be annoying for a PC to raise casually? Gentle repose any bodies, carry in bag of holding, and use Ultimate Mercy in downtime where blowing 10 lay on hands isn't a factor. Virtually zero cost except for bag of holding which are very useful for most parties anyway.


Celanian wrote:
I think I'm going to add a house rule. Perhaps there is a 10% chance per level (max 100%) that a reincarnate/raise dead/resurrection will work on any non-PC with the chance decreasing by 20% per additional time after the first. Eventually Pharasma will get around to judging you.

House-rule all you want, it's your game. But arbitrary stuff like this just feels a bit like cheese, like you're mad they revived an NPC and punishing them with a weird and somewhat unjustified house rule. Not saying you are, but it feels like that.

How about making a different house rule that's more lore-friendly. Everybody knows that demons and devils are after mortal souls. We know it in this real world, and the people of Golarion know it in their world. So just let them do what they're supposed to do - if an outsider kills you (probably just demons, devils, archons and such, but maybe any alignment-related outsider could do it) it just keeps your soul. It takes that soul to wherever these outsiders do whatever they do with souls. It can decide not to; I suggest making it a burden for the outsider. Like when it has the soul, treat it as shaken. This way an outsider on a mission might decide to leave the soul so it can stay at peak mission-ready performance. Summoned outsiders can't do it - we don't want every mid-level mage running around summoning demons to perma-kill powerful NPCs.

Something like this can make a whole new way to limit resurrections (etc.).

(side note: my comment about everyone knowing about soul taking demons is a comment about earth's lore, not about earth's reality; I will leave each reader to speculate about reality on their own)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If you don't want PC's to use these capabilities, then remove them from the game before hand. It's generally a good idea to let them know you're doing so, so they can plan their concepts appropriately.

Since the effect operates as "raise dead" it's also subject to it's limitations.

If you really want to put a limit on raise dead and like effects, have the time limit be reduced to the next sunrise, requiring resurrection on bringing people back to life afterwards.

Liberty's Edge

Timebomb wrote:

A Salve of the Second Chance is 800 gp to make and casts Resurrection on a target (yes, it is cheaper to make the salve than get a diamond for the spell). Then restoring the 2 negative levels (2560 gp paid to a 7th level cleric), and then you're good.

Between 2.8k and 4.16k and your character has a second life (albeit in a possibly different body). Not that expensive.

To the OP, there is nothing in the description of Reincarnate that impedes the PCs from Reincarnating an NPC, assuming "the subject's soul is free and willing to return" and "a creature that has not been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect" are satisfied.
If the demons managed to trap the soul somehow, raise the head as an undead, or the NPC happens to enjoy the afterlife he has earned then the PCs would have a problem.

Resurrection =/= Reincarnate.

The salve cast reincarnate.

- * -

Level 8 standard wealth: 33,000 gp

Resurrection: 10.000 gp diamond + 910 gp to cast the spell as a minimum price
13the level caster (that normally can be found in a metropolis and there is no metropolis in the area)

For 8th level character to know a 13th level cleric or 14th level oracle is possible but uncommon.
To have 11.000 gp in cash lying around even rarer.

Reincarnate is a possibility but the target can be unwilling to return as a random humanoid.

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Celanian wrote:

How would it be annoying for a PC to raise casually? Gentle repose any bodies, carry in bag of holding, and use Ultimate Mercy in downtime where blowing 10 lay on hands isn't a factor. Virtually zero cost except for bag of holding which are very useful for most parties anyway.

You're a man down for the rest of the adventure. That's huge. Not only is one player out of the game for at least a session, but also each lost party member increases the chances of a TPK. Also, ultimate mercy only works on an intact body. At 10th level, you're dealing with threats that can annihilate you completely or shred your body into pieces or have death effects. Ultimate mercy will not avail if the death is decisive enough. Finally, it still costs the party money for the negative levels and forces spellcasters to save spell slots for gentle repose and make whole.


With Gentle Repose, no time limit is enough to stop Ultimate Mercy as long as the PCs have a couple of scrolls or a wand lying around.

I admit I did not fully think through the implications of Ultimate Mercy when allowing it. It makes it easy to go around reviving people as long as you have some downtime.

I am not removing the ability. I am just going to make it not a sure thing for non-PCs which is very much in keeping with Golarion lore and even the spell description.


Cyrad wrote:
Celanian wrote:

How would it be annoying for a PC to raise casually? Gentle repose any bodies, carry in bag of holding, and use Ultimate Mercy in downtime where blowing 10 lay on hands isn't a factor. Virtually zero cost except for bag of holding which are very useful for most parties anyway.

You're a man down for the rest of the adventure. That's huge. Not only is one player out of the game for at least a session, but also each lost party member increases the chances of a TPK. Also, ultimate mercy only works on an intact body. At 10th level, you're dealing with threats that can annihilate you completely or shred your body into pieces or have death effects. Ultimate mercy will not avail if the death is decisive enough. Finally, it still costs the party money for the negative levels and forces spellcasters to save spell slots for gentle repose and make whole.

None of these rules apply to PCs. PCs have 100% chance of coming back using these spells. I have been VERY specific in this thread that only non-PCs are affected.

Restoration spells are dirt cheap in trade for a high level NPC. And a wand of gentle repose is dirt cheap as well for high level characters. And most monsters aren't capable of soul stealing or disintegrate.

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Celanian wrote:
And most monsters aren't capable of soul stealing or disintegrate.

Those aren't the only ways to stop a raise dead spell. A lava or acid pit. Getting eaten. A breath weapon. Getting squashed by a big creature. Getting turned into confetti by something with large claws. Not to mention that negative levels stay with a character even after they come back to life.

Celanian wrote:
I admit I did not fully think through the implications of Ultimate Mercy when allowing it. It makes it easy to go around reviving people as long as you have some downtime.

Why is that a bad thing? That's awesome! I don't understand why you would want to ruin that for the player. Especially when he had to use two feats and have a high Charisma score on a MAD class to pull it off. He can only do it once per day, anyway. If an NPC's death is so important to your precious campaign, then kill them in a way that makes raise dead not work--like death effects, body destruction, animating the body as an undead, etc.

Celanian wrote:
I am not removing the ability. I am just going to make it not a sure thing for non-PCs which is very much in keeping with Golarion lore and even the spell description.

Why does hindering raise dead support Golarion lore? Because of Pharasma? She's the goddess of life and rebirth. Resurrection is one of her subdomains. Are you honestly arguing that the goddess of healing and resurrection would punish heroes that heal and resurrect people by randomly making the magic not work? The books and even the guy who wrote Pharasma point out she's perfectly fine with resurrection. In fact, she anticipates and encourages it.


Cyrad wrote:
Those aren't the only ways to stop a raise dead spell. A lava or acid pit. Getting eaten. A breath weapon. Getting squashed by a big creature. Getting turned into confetti by something with large claws. Not to mention that negative levels stay with a character even after they come back to life.

Maybe getting eaten will stop it. Maybe. The rest are just hit point damage which can be cured first before raising as long as the body is recovered. You seriously would rule a fire breath or fireball spell to stop raise dead in your campaign?

Cyrad wrote:
Why is that a bad thing? That's awesome! I don't understand why you would want to ruin that for the player. Especially when he had to use two feats and have a high Charisma score on a MAD class to pull it off. He can only do it once per day, anyway. If an NPC's death is so important to your precious campaign, then kill them in a way that makes raise dead not work--like death effects, body destruction, animating the body as an undead, etc.

In your campaign, it may be super hunky dory that death is trivial and easy to reverse. Maybe in your campaign, churches of 7-10th level paladins go around raising everyone who is ever killed from the lowest peasant to the mightiest lord.

That is not how I want my campaign to operate and I'm pretty sure that many if not most other people feel the same way.

I didn't intend for the NPC to die. It just happened in play when the NPCs was downed and the PCs refused to trade a weapon for the NPC's life.

Cyrad wrote:
Why does hindering raise dead support Golarion lore? Because of Pharasma? She's the goddess of life and rebirth. Resurrection is one of her subdomains. Are you honestly arguing that the goddess of healing and resurrection would punish heroes that heal and resurrect people by randomly making the magic not work? The books and even the guy who wrote Pharasma point out she's perfectly fine with resurrection. In fact, she anticipates and encourages it.

The spell description specifically states that the subject may not want to come back. And the guy who wrote Pharasma specifically stated that if she has already judged someone, they are not subject to return.

This paragraph of yours does explain a lot about your preference for casual easy resurrections. That's ok, not everyone GMs the same way. I personally prefer death to not be such a revolving door for non-PCs.


Celanian wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
Those aren't the only ways to stop a raise dead spell. A lava or acid pit. Getting eaten. A breath weapon. Getting squashed by a big creature. Getting turned into confetti by something with large claws. Not to mention that negative levels stay with a character even after they come back to life.
Maybe getting eaten will stop it. Maybe. The rest are just hit point damage which can be cured first before raising as long as the body is recovered. You seriously would rule a fire breath or fireball spell to stop raise dead in your campaign?

You're not reading the spells. Even Raise Dead fixes all your lethal wounds. But it does not restore missing parts. So it is not necessary to cure HP damage first before raising the dead.

Being burned won't stop a Raise Dead. Being eaten will, if the body is ripped apart and the pieces are eaten separately, but if the body is just swallowed whole by a Tarrasque and then recovered, Raise Dead should work (unless it was digested for too long to be still considered "whole"). Lava or acid should prevent Raise Dead unless the body was just barely killed and then removed from the lava or acid - but if it stayed in there for any real length of time it won't still be "whole". Getting "squished" probably means the body is not "whole" though that might be just a judgment call - trampled to death with broken bones is "whole with lethal damage) which Raise Dead could fix, but squished into gooey jelly is not. Getting killed with claws is not a problem for Raise Dead but being "turned into confetti" would not be considered "whole". Being killed by negative levels is not fixable by Raise Dead.

Many of those other things can be fixed with Resurrection, though that is harder to find and more costly.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Celanian wrote:
In your campaign, it may be super hunky dory that death is trivial and easy to reverse. Maybe in your campaign, churches of 7-10th level paladins go around raising everyone who is ever killed from the lowest peasant to the mightiest lord.

If Paladins of 7-10th level are THAT common in your world, and they're all taking the feat, then maybe the problem is in the world building?

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