2x Penache Pools?


Rules Questions

1 to 50 of 52 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

7 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

If I get two Penache pools from two different sources (like say Swashbuckler and Kata Master Monk) how does this work?

Do they stack? Do I double my Cha bonus like I do for Luck + Penache? Is it all the same pool and the size doesn't change by having two pools but I can use it for all of the abilities I gained the pools for? Some other thing?

Shadow Lodge

They combine to form one pool, they stack (add them), and you can use abilities from either class from the other class' points.

There's a sidebar somewhere in the ACG that explains it.

Grand Lodge

What avatar said.

In homebrew you may be able to convince your GM to convert one panache feature to the extra panache feat instead.

However under RAW they don't stack, although the recharge options do.


Grey_Mage wrote:

What avatar said.

In homebrew you may be able to convince your GM to convert one panache feature to the extra panache feat instead.

However under RAW they don't stack, although the recharge options do.

RAW they DO stack, which is, amusingly, what Avatar said.

Grand Lodge

Let me clarify.

Panache luck and grit combine, even though luck and panache are both cha based.

Panache and panache do not stack. They form one pool using cha modifier once. The recharge options from all panache granting classes do.

See ranger (Hooded champion) archetype for clarification.

No where does it state panache stacks with panache. It states it uses a single pool. Since the features have the same name and same stat, you don't get CHA twice.

Shadow Lodge

If it helps, the exact wording (from the Swashbuckler page) is:

Sidebar: Grit and Panache, p56 wrote:

The gunslinger’s grit and the swashbuckler’s panache represent two paths to gain access to the same heroic pool. Characters with both grit and panache class features combine the two resources together into a larger pool of both grit points and panache points.

For purposes of feat prerequisites, a character with the panache class feature satisfies the prerequisites as if she were a grit user, and vice versa. For feats, magic items, and other effects, a panache user can spend and gain panache points in place of grit points, and vice versa.

and:

Hooded Champion, p108 wrote:

Panache (Ex): At 1st level, the hooded champion gains the swashbuckler’s panache class feature. He regains panache through critical hits and killing blows when using a bow of any kind, rather than when using a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon.

If the hooded champion has this ability and the panache ability from another class or archetype, the panache points from the two sources do not stack, but the hooded champion regains panache in
any way either class feature allows him to.

For example, a character with a Charisma score of 16 who has both the hooded champion’s and the swashbuckler’s panache has a base of 3 panache points, and regains panache from critical hits and killing blows from both bows and light or one-handed piercing melee weapons.


So... RAW they do NOT stack? ...which is not what Avatar-1 said first but is what he said second?


That Hooded Champion rules block only applies to the Hooded Champion, not all panache users.

FAQ:

Quote:

Channel Energy: If I have this ability from more than one class, do they stack?

No—unless an ability specifically says it stacks with similar abilities (such as an assassin's sneak attack), or adds in some way based on the character's total class levels (such as improved uncanny dodge), the abilities don't stack and you have to use them separately. Therefore, cleric channeling doesn't stack with paladin channeling, necromancer channeling, oracle of life channeling, and so on.

No where does it state that two different panache pools stack for the Swashbuckler and the Kata Master, thus they would remain independent pools.

Odd, and perhaps unintended, but that's how it works.

Even if they did stack into one pool there's a good chance they would combine into a larger pool, as that's what two classes with panache and grit do. There's also precedence for using two different stats for the same pool in the Champion of Irori's Smite Evil (as clarified in a dev post somewhere).

Grand Lodge

Use the side bar text on the slueth page. It states the three versions all represent the same ability and stack into a single pool even though luck and panache are both CHA based.

"Grit, luck, and panache represent three different means by which heroes can gain access to the same heroic pool, using it to accomplish fantastic feats. For characters with a mix of grit, luck, and panache, they pool the resources together into a combined pool. (Those who use panache and luck gain twice their Charisma bonus in their pool.) For feats, magic items, and other effects, a panache user can spend and gain luck points in place of grit or panache points, and vice versa."

It states each of the 3 pools combine into a single heroic pool. It doesn't state the same class skill can be added multiple times.

It is well documented that you don't get the same modifier twice unless explicitly allowed (in this case it is with luck and Panache.

When given a specific example, Hooded Champion, it follows the above rules perfectly.

By RAW:
Does it state you can combine Panache and Panache? Nowhere.

Can we separate panache and panache into 2 different pools like the channeling example? No. Under RAW they are the same pool of heroic ability.

Can you get the same modifier to the same skill? No, unless specifically exempted in the text.


The sidebar states that grit and panache combine, but says nothing about how two panache pools combine.

Per the FAQ, if it doesn't state they combine, then they don't - you wind up with two separate pools.

If you read "Characters with both grit and panache class features combine the two resources together into a larger pool of both grit points and panache points." to also apply to a panache and panache user, then it very clearly states they add into a larger combined pool.

The existence of the Hooded Champion actually strengthens my case, as they would have no need to give it a special rule if it were the default way of handling multiple panache pools.

Grand Lodge

Byakko wrote:


The existence of the Hooded Champion actually strengthens my case, as they would have no need to give it a special rule if it were the default way of handling multiple panache pools.

There are several example of class features gaining Panache (Luck, or Grit)

Cavalier / Daring Champion: gains Panache feature and STANDARD swashbuckler deeds and pool recharge

Monk / Kata Master - gains panache and gains UAS and Monk weapons in addition to standard recharge abilities.

Ranger Hooded Champion - gains Panache and modifies recharge rules since it is bow only (loses standard recharge). It is also of note there are space considerations on the Monk page and not on the Ranger page allowing more elaboration.


So they don't stack but are two separate pools?

Grand Lodge

One pool, you get CHA once regardless of how many times you get additional Panache features.


Grey_Mage:
Sorry, still confused as to how you reached that opinion. Why is it one pool? The part you were quoting seems to be referring to combining Penache with Grit and Luck. I'm not asking about that, though. I am asking about getting Penache from two different sources.

You saw that RAW they are one pool but can you provide anything showing that this is the case?

Grand Lodge

Where in the rules does it say they stack?

I have shown grit luck and panache are 3 skills that use the same pool for heroic feats, not separate and equal, the same.

Now we have established its all one pool.
Nowhere is it even inferred that the same pool stacks upon itself. Actually the rules on stacking the same modifier is prohibited, hence the blurb specifically allowing luck and panache to stack.

As a player with a Daring Champion Mouser build, I would love if they combined into a larger pool, but they don't.


I am not convinced that the first line means you can only have a single pool. While it does state that there are multiple methods to access the same heroic pool, this doesn't automatically mean you are limited to a single pool. I see this similar to how a multiclassed paladin/cleric gains access to Channel Energy twice, yet the pools don't combine into a single resource despite having the same name.

Actually, if you want to get really technical, the sidebar only applies to a "gunslinger’s grit and the swashbuckler’s panache". Thus, unless you're talking about these two specific classes, the sidebar doesn't even apply in the first place.

Grand Lodge

Cleric and pally channels are daily uses.

Panache is recharged on the fly. For the sake of argument, you're right. You have 2 Panache pools and you use 1 for derring do and the other for combat. When you crit with a piercing weapon which 1 gets the Panache? Certainly not both but the RAW for each one allows it because there isn't supposed to be 2 Pools to begin with.

This is a new class feature so the mechanics are spread out in the ACG. Some repetitive things were removed due to space considerations especially since the hybrids all have archetypes borrowing other class features. You can't cherry pick the data, or you can and be wrong.

One pool to accomplish heroic deeds. The other side bars goes into more detail. Its almost as if they put the side bars in knowing people would be faq'ing the pools.


When you crit with a piercing weapon, either pool that says it's recharged by that method would be recharged. Simple enough, honestly.

If you go by the sidebar, panache x2 can be reasonably considered to stack fully. If you go by the strict raw, they're separate pools, as with Channel-- whether or not they're daily pools is irrelevant to that rule. Only in the specific case of the Hooded Champion is there the argument that you get one pool with Cha added once.

Grand Lodge

My gunslinger, swashbuckler-picaroon, cavalier-daring champion, Monk Kata master , Investigator-Slueth would love this.

But which pools stack with which? And which recharge goes with which?

Hint: 1 pool, lots of recharge options.


When you have an actual RAW source for that "hint" that isn't a specific rule for a specific archetype, it'll mean something.

By the strict RAW according to the Cleric FAQ, Gunslinger+Sleuth+one of the other three (arbitrarily, Swashbuckler) stack to form Pool A. Pool B is Kata Master. Pool C is Daring Champion. Not how I'd run it, but well. Rules forum.


Anyway, Lune, to be perfectly honest, I've never come close to using up all my panache, even without being "doubled". As you're making a character very similar to mine, I expect you won't be in danger of running out either.

This is because most panache uses require a swift or immediate action, and you're limited to only one of either, per turn. So unless the combats run unusually long, you should be good.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I wouldn't allow them to stack because they're exactly the same thing. Both abilities are called "Panache" and the kata monk's version reads: "At 1st level, a kata master gains the swashbuckler's panache class ability."

It doesn't say you get an instance of the ability, it says you get the ability. It also states: "A kata master can use an unarmed strike or monk special weapon in place of a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon for granted swashbuckler class features and deeds." That is the only part of the text that implies how to recharge the pool, and it doesn't say they use unarmed strikes and monk weapons to work with their own kata monk pool, it says those weapons work with the swashbuckler class features. If you'd allow them their own pool, they'd be left without a way to recharge that pool, because, by RAW, their unarmed strikes or monk weapons would charge the swashbuckler's pool if they also have swashbuckler levels.

In any case, rules are left a bit too vague. It should've come with the same detail as the hooded champion.


Grey Mage wrote:
Where in the rules does it say they stack?

Did I say that it says in the rules somewhere that they stack? I recall only asking questions.

That being said, at least Byakko gave some rules precedent for them not stacking but remaining separate pools. Meanwhile you have not backed up your opinion with rules at all. I understand that Luck, Penache and Grit all are part of the same pool. That is in the rules. But the rules you have quoted do not reference what happens if you receive Penache from two different sources. Since that is the nature of my question, that is what is important to me.

I do not mean to sound overly critical. Your opinion is entirely valid. But I am not looking for an opinion. I want to know how the rules work for this situation. I do not want to have to deal with table variation and would prefer having something to point to in the rules. Thus far, Byakko has come the closest to providing that. Thank you, by the way, Byakko.

kestral287: Yeah, not how I'd run it either. However, I think I would find a middle ground. Probably I would make it one pool but allow Cha to be added twice. So it would be one pool but slightly larger from having it from more than one source. But yeah, you are right. This is a PFS character, I want the RULE not someone's opinion. Thank you for your input.

For what it is worth, I think it makes the most sense to follow the Cleric FAQ as precedent as the Sidebar doesn't reference receiving the same kind of pool twice.

Forsetti: There are other differences in the pools if you read beyond the part you quoted. Like, for instance, what you can use them for. But you are correct, they left that one part out and it does remain vague. It would be nice if they included in that sidebar something saying, "If you get the same pool (Penache, Luck or Grit) from two sources then the rules for it are X." But they didn't. So I am left with having to ask here.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

What I would do if possible, Lune, is take this straight to your VC.

The best rule we have is the Channel FAQ, and while it's a solid piece of evidence I can see GMs being skeptical. Probably better to cut off the funny looks and table variation up front.

Grand Lodge

Lune wrote:
Grey Mage wrote:
Where in the rules does it say they stack?

Did I say that it says in the rules somewhere that they stack? I recall only asking questions.

I was being asked to disprove a negative. The focus should not be on one person to prove or disprove, or else.

If RAW was clear there would be no debate, but lets face it, it's not. If you search these forums the same topic has come up several times, the end result ends with 1 pool, no stacking of the same ability. None have been from Dev Team, but certainly people who's opinion I respect. In researching this issue other posters above have made conflicting statements on this same subject in previous posts.

The Channeling FAQ was specific to Channeling but the explanation seems to cover more areas of concern, but it was also written prior to the ACG. Unfortunately, this also requires ignoring the part in the ACG about it being "one pool of heroic ability accessed in different ways". Either interpretation requires ignoring a RAW. Some people see this as an opportunity to exploit until an FAQ is resolved. I see this as table variation and should be avoided.

The final option is use the lowest common denominator (the most restrictive one) to avoid variation. Since I play in multiple areas, a VC ruling won't cut it for me and I use one pool unstacked (and it works just fine).

I do recommend persons interested in the topic to FAQ it to ensure it gets attention at the appropriate time. Since it affects a niche group it may be awhile.


kestral287: Yeah, you are probably right. I don't want to deal with table variation and without a straight rules based answer it is going to be subject to interpretation. Better to have my VC's ruling one way or the other.

Grey_Mage wrote:
If RAW was clear there would be no debate, but lets face it, it's not.

You are correct. But at least others are showing what rules they are basing their opinion on that show precedent. The rule you talk about does not reference Penache + Penache. It references Penache + Luck or Grit.

Grey_Mage wrote:
If you search these forums the same topic has come up several times, the end result ends with 1 pool, no stacking of the same ability.

Really? I did search and I didn't find anyone asking about Penache + Penache. I would welcome a link to these threads if you have it.

And, whether or not you, or I respect other people's opinions is not helpful here. Again, I am not looking for anyone's opinion. I need a ruling. If not from a Dev at least some rules that show precedent. Something hard. You understand? I can't go to my Venture Captain and say, "It is this way because this guy on the internet said so and myself and Grey_Mage respect his opinion." I think we both know that isn't going to fly. Now... if it was from a Dev, or a FAQ that showed precedent ... well, then I have something tangible to show them to base their ruling on.

Now, if you want to call someone out by showing them changing their opinion feel free. I'll state now that I don't really care. People are allowed to change their opinions. Whether or not they did and whether or not it gives you warm fuzzies because you feel superior saying "Ha, caught you! You didn't say no takesy-backsies!" ... well that just doesn't really help. But, you know... at least you get +1 point of internet cred. [smaller]Where can you spend that again, btw? I have a small pile accumulating ;) [smaller]

As for the Channeling FAQ: I see the response as purposefully including more than just Channeling. Don't you? Lets look at it again:

The Channeling FAQ wrote:

Channel Energy: If I have this ability from more than one class, do they stack?

No—unless an ability specifically says it stacks with similar abilities (such as an assassin's sneak attack), or adds in some way based on the character's total class levels (such as improved uncanny dodge), the abilities don't stack and you have to use them separately. Therefore, cleric channeling doesn't stack with paladin channeling, necromancer channeling, oracle of life channeling, and so on.

Bolding mine. The entire first sentence is giving a general answer and rule of thumb. The second sentence is applying that rule of thumb to the specific question of Channeling.

I do appreciate the FAQ. I'm going to click it myself. Hopefully others will find getting an answer useful.

Grand Lodge

Don't let the titles fool you. They are all related to our discussion. Part of my frustration is replying on my phone (autocorrect nonsense).
Here are the titles of related threads for your perusal. None have been FAQ'd because it seem to be settled.

Stacking Panache, Luck, Grit and...Panache again?!

Stacking Grit and Panache

Question about stacking bonuses, specific example.

Another Mouser question

I'm still in awe that :

Grit, luck, and panache represent three different means by which heroes can gain access to the same heroic pool , using it to accomplish fantastic feats. For characters with a mix of grit, luck, and panache, they pool the resources together into a combined pool.

The abilities grant access to a pool, not create one (no separate pools for each class). Since Panache + Panache is still a mix of grit, luck, and panache it would all go the central pool. It's straight forward. The rules on ability modifier stacking would prevent Panache CHA from stacking with Panache CHA.

And this RAW is along side the class description rather than an FAQ written previous to the class.


The kata monk's panache and the swashbuckler's panache issue isn't the same as the cleric's and the paladin's channel issue though.

The paladin's channel positive energy is described as being "like" the cleric's channel ability. The kata monk's panache actually is the swashbuckler's panache.

Let's break it apart:

Quote:
"At 1st level, a kata master gains the swashbuckler's panache class ability."

Pretty straight language.

Quote:
At the start of each day, a kata master gains a number of panache points equal to her Charisma bonus (minimum 1). Her panache goes up or down throughout the day, but usually cannot go higher than his Charisma bonus (minimum 1).

A superfluous bit, all of it already stated in the swashbuckler's text.

Quote:
A kata master gains the swashbuckler's derring-do and opportune parry and riposte deeds.

This part was probably included under the "Panache" ability because it's part of the package that replaces Stunning Fist. It doesn't say anything about the panache pool though.

Quote:
A kata master can use an unarmed strike or monk special weapon in place of a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon for granted swashbuckler class features and deeds.

Note how this part doesn't exclude the traditional swashbuckler weapons. By RAW, a kata monk can still use light or one-handed piercing melee weapons for gaining panache or performing deeds.

Quote:
"This ability replaces stunning fist."

Should've been "These abilities", but clear enough anyway.

In conclusion, when a swashbuckler or kata monk takes his first kata monk or swashbuckler level respectively, they don't gain a new panache ability, because both of them already have the swashbuckler's panache ability.


Grey_Mage wrote:
The final option is use the lowest common denominator (the most restrictive one) to avoid variation. Since I play in multiple areas, a VC ruling won't cut it for me and I use one pool unstacked (and it works just fine).

Y'know, I actually agree with you, Gray Mage.

It's honestly not worth the table disputes to use anything other than the most restrictive reading.

In the end, there really aren't any definitive rules for combining two panache pools, so we're all just making claims based on circumstantial and tangential evidence.

As I've mentioned previously, in practice this type of character rarely runs out of panache anyway. The only time I'd be tempted to broach this subject with the GM is if it would make the difference in keeping a character alive. Otherwise, I'd just restrict myself to the smaller pool.


Wait, there is a rule to combine two panache pools.
The feat "Amateur Swashbuckler" grants a panache pool, and states that if you gain later an other panache pool, the feat would work like the Extra Panache feat.

For the Kata Master/Swashbuckler it would make a lot of sense to trade the Kata Master class feature for the Extra Panache feat since this class feature has more or less the "status" of a bonus feat as it replaces the "Stunning Feast" Monk class feature which is a slightly better version of the normal "Stunning Fist" feat (the same way that the panache pool granted by the Kata Master is a better version of "Amateur Swashbuckler").


Hey, I never mind thread necro in the event of new info being discovered. That does lend some credence to the notion of some amount of stacking. It even seems balanced as it isn't full stacking but rather just giving a couple extra points.

The problem is that the counter argument is going to be that verbiage in a feat does not establish a precedent for how class abilities interact.

...and, my counter to that is that in the absence of any official ruling that the closest rule that does exist should be used. However, that doesn't always fly at every table in PFS.

That is the long way of saying that even though I agree with you without an official ruling these are just opinions. So, hit FAQ, please. :)


Lune wrote:

Hey, I never mind thread necro in the event of new info being discovered. That does lend some credence to the notion of some amount of stacking. It even seems balanced as it isn't full stacking but rather just giving a couple extra points.

The problem is that the counter argument is going to be that verbiage in a feat does not establish a precedent for how class abilities interact.

...and, my counter to that is that in the absence of any official ruling that the closest rule that does exist should be used. However, that doesn't always fly at every table in PFS.

That is the long way of saying that even though I agree with you without an official ruling these are just opinions. So, hit FAQ, please. :)

RAW wise, they don't stack, since the closest actual rule is the "same ability modifier blahblahblah"

there is even language in the hybrid classes that some of their abilities may be redundant when stacked with parent classes (i know monk isn't the parent class for swash, but still)

but it isn't a farfetched houserule to replace stunning fist with extra panache if you have panache already.

In the end, you still get thigns out of it:
you can gain and spend panache with unarmed strikes (NOT piercing light weapons)
you can gain panache with killing blows if you are an archetype that replaces that
later on you can interchange panache/ki points
etc


I'd say they can stack, going off of the sleuth's sidebar. It stating that Grit, Luck and Penache pools all combine would work with any combination of grit, luck and penache pools, and there's no reason to say that penache and penache do not make a valid combination. The rules essentially state that the three different types of pools are actually the same type of pools with different names for flavor - and they combine with full stacking of ability bonuses - so if they are the same pool with different names for flavor only, why would the same pools with the same name not stack?

Aside from that, it makes bookkeeping much simpler to just have a single pool.


CraziFuzzy wrote:

I'd say they can stack, going off of the sleuth's sidebar. It stating that Grit, Luck and Penache pools all combine would work with any combination of grit, luck and penache pools, and there's no reason to say that penache and penache do not make a valid combination. The rules essentially state that the three different types of pools are actually the same type of pools with different names for flavor - and they combine with full stacking of ability bonuses - so if they are the same pool with different names for flavor only, why would the same pools with the same name not stack?

Aside from that, it makes bookkeeping much simpler to just have a single pool.

that sidebar actually makes an excpetion and even specifically mentions luck and panache stacking is opposite of the rules.

but it doesnt say ANYTHING about panache+panache


It states that "For characters with a mix of grit, luck, and panache, they pool the resources together into a combined pool." It does not in any way state that you can only have one of each in that 'mix'.


CraziFuzzy wrote:
It states that "For characters with a mix of grit, luck, and panache, they pool the resources together into a combined pool." It does not in any way state that you can only have one of each in that 'mix'.

Correctly.

All pool into one.

And in case of grit and panache there is no problem.
In case of grit and luck there is no problem.
In case of luck+panache there is a specific provisions, specifically allowing double cha.

In case of panache+panache there is nothing. From ALL the combinations, one is specifically left out.

So, 1 pool, equal to your Charisma. Replenished by both method since it is the "same" pool.

There is no provision for double Charisma on panache+panache


I read the sentence in parentheses more as a clarification for an expected question than a part of the rule. That is the purpose of the parentheses. That is a clarification for what happens if two of the pools in the mix are using the same ability, since the normal assumption is the same ability bonus won't stack. That statement, however, is not the rule text that allows the stacking, the word 'combine' is what allows both to 'combine' together.

If you step away from rule-lawyer mode for a second, though, and think about it. WHY would a kata master/sleuth or kata master/gunslinger have more 'cool points' in the morning than a kata master/swashbuckler?


CraziFuzzy wrote:

I read the sentence in parentheses more as a clarification for an expected question than a part of the rule. That is the purpose of the parentheses. That is a clarification for what happens if two of the pools in the mix are using the same ability, since the normal assumption is the same ability bonus won't stack. That statement, however, is not the rule text that allows the stacking, the word 'combine' is what allows both to 'combine' together.

If you step away from rule-lawyer mode for a second, though, and think about it. WHY would a kata master/sleuth or kata master/gunslinger have more 'cool points' in the morning than a kata master/swashbuckler?

The main purpose of parenthesis is clarification. It clarifies the exception of the rule which is luck+panache and NOT in general cha+cha pools.

The word combine is a 100% necessity, because if this word didn't exist, due to the channel faq, you would end up with 2 seperate panache pools, one for swash and one for monk, and that would be nightmare to keep track off (actually impossible, due to things like "which pool regenerates with a piercing unarmed crit" and etc)

As for why a lcuk/panache user would have, and NEED, more points it's really simple:

luck, grit and panache all have different deeds. When you use the same pool for a larger number of deeds, then, if it WASN'T larger, you would run out sooner, penaltizing one or the other pool.

In case of panache+panache though, you DON'T need a bigger pool, because the amount of deeds are exactly the same.

To put it simple:
if the game expects a sleuth to use his inspered deeds 10times in the course of the day. and expects a swash to parry 10 times in the span of the day. Combining them without doubling the pool could easily lead the sleuth being out of panache even before he rolled a single inspired deed.

The opposite isn't true. Because kata master and swash use the same deeds, with the same action economy, and the same replenishing method, the number of times they use their deed remains the same if the pool is the same. If the pool was doubled, the expected times/day would also double, would be a huge power spike, and thus, omitted from the sidebar.


Because there is no rule for what happens with penache + penache, any judgement of what should happen is pure speculation.

To me it makes the most sence to use the only thing that does reference penache + penache: Amateur Gunslinger.


Also a kata master and mouser for example have different deeds so them being tracked separately does make sense.


Lune wrote:

Because there is no rule for what happens with penache + penache, any judgement of what should happen is pure speculation.

To me it makes the most sence to use the only thing that does reference penache + penache: Amateur Gunslinger.

general rule for pf is:

if something doesn't say it can be done, then it can't. Not the other way around.

Rules explicity ALLOW stuff.

Given that there is already a faq that says "you cannot add the same stat twice on the same thing" and there ISN'T a rule specifically allowing panache+panache to double dip in charisma, the RAW is you can't.


This isn't a case of "if something doesn't say it can be done, then it can't."

It is more, "these two different class abilities exist and both use a penache pool to function, how do the interact?"

There are no rules that explicitly state how they interact. In the absence of any rule it makes the most sence to use the only thing that does reference penache + penache: Amateur Gunslinger.

Also, I was not suggesting that Cha should apply twice.


Lune wrote:

This isn't a case of "if something doesn't say it can be done, then it can't."

It is more, "these two different class abilities exist and both use a penache pool to function, how do the interact?"

There are no rules that explicitly state how they interact. In the absence of any rule it makes the most sence to use the only thing that does reference penache + penache: Amateur Gunslinger.

Also, I was not suggesting that Cha should apply twice.

Due to the way the sidebar is worded, the most logical way is:

One pool equal to cha. Regain panache either through critical or killing blow of an unarmed strike. Regain panache either through critical or killing blow with a one handed or light piercing weapon.

As I said, giving extra panache feat IS a reasonable house rule and not far fetched, but there is no language in either panache ability to make it raw.


shroudb wrote:
As I said, giving extra panache feat IS a reasonable house rule and not far fetched, but there is no language in either panache ability to make it raw.

And mechanically is not much different than just properly combining the 2 panache pools. Yet combining them at least follows suit with any other multi-cool-points-pool combinations. The fact is, there is no RAW at all on how to combine the two panache pools. Even your basis for this being the same ability score not applying twice to the same thing doesn't really apply, as that is talking about bonuses from the same source - yet the size of the panache pool is not x + a bonus the size of CHAMOD - the size of the panache pool is CHAMOD. There is no bonus at all to panache/luck/grit, aside from the Extra Panache feat, which specifically DOES stack with itself.


CraziFuzzy wrote:
shroudb wrote:
As I said, giving extra panache feat IS a reasonable house rule and not far fetched, but there is no language in either panache ability to make it raw.
And mechanically is not much different than just properly combining the 2 panache pools. Yet combining them at least follows suit with any other multi-cool-points-pool combinations. The fact is, there is no RAW at all on how to combine the two panache pools. Even your basis for this being the same ability score not applying twice to the same thing doesn't really apply, as that is talking about bonuses from the same source - yet the size of the panache pool is not x + a bonus the size of CHAMOD - the size of the panache pool is CHAMOD. There is no bonus at all to panache/luck/singleaside from the Extra Panache feat, which specifically DOES stack with itself.

I don't see 5+ as equivalent to 2, but that's just me I guess.

You keep posting that double panache should be a thing without posting a single rule that supports that.

The FAQ is the most relevant one. Getting something equal to Charisma is the same thing as having 0+cha pool.

Even the source is exactly the same ability, with exactly the same name.

Raw wise there isn't a single rule to support your claim.

And the only reason I said that it would be a reasonable HOUSE rule (I.e. not raw) to give extra panache instead is because swash is on the weak side and in a HOME game it's nice to throw a bone in n weaker characters.


shroudb, there is a logically relevant FAQ: Channel Energy from more than one class

This FAQ establishes that if you have the same class feature from more than one source that don't specifically say they stack with one another, then you use them separately.

While there is a sidebar concerning how to stack Grit with Panache, this doesn't cover stacking Panache with Panache, and thus this combination remains without specific stacking rules... hence defaulting to the above rule.

Anyway, this is admittedly not a watertight argument (as you'll find if you read these discussions more closely), however it's not fair to say there is no rules support for this interpretation.

Grand Lodge

Already covered. The RAW clearly states there is one pool. Less clear and still up for debate is adding panache twice to that pool.


The RAW does NOT clearly state there is one pool.

It states there is more than one path to achieve such a pool.

This could be read as similar to how the Sorcerer and the Wizard are two different paths to achieve arcane spellcasting.

However, if you do feel that sidebar is relevant, it details how Grit and Panache are directly added together to achieve a larger pool. How are two Panache pools added together? Completely uncovered, but one might guess that they are added together the same way a grit and panache pool are.

Thus, there are at least 3+ ways one could believe two panache pools are combined, and they all have a measure of rules support.


Shroudb: You said, "You keep posting that double panache should be a thing without posting a single rule that supports that."

Are you purposely ignoring the example of Amateur Swashbuckler even though it has been stated an quoted several times? That is the only thing anywhere that references penache + penache.


Lune wrote:

Shroudb: You said, "You keep posting that double panache should be a thing without posting a single rule that supports that."

Are you purposely ignoring the example of Amateur Swashbuckler even though it has been stated an quoted several times? That is the only thing anywhere that references penache + penache.

i am not ignoring it.

You have a feat, that when you get a class ability is replaced by another feat.

It is not the first time, and it won't be the last, that a FEAT interacts in a weird way with a class ability. But that doesn't make the ability itself act different than raw, it makes the feat work different, as stated in it's description.

1 to 50 of 52 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / 2x Penache Pools? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.