A Suggestion for Experienced PFS Players


Pathfinder Society

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

A suggestion to more experienced players at PFS events. Please take a second to think how your comments about actions other players choose to make might affect them, and their decision to keep playing in PFS.

Here’s the general situation. PaizoCon was the fourth time I’ve been to a PFS event. I was playing in a scenario, and most of the other players were GMs. Their character's levels made it possible to play the higher tier. I was ineffective in combat to say the least. I tried to be helpful, but I don’t feel like I was. During the course of the scenario I felt I was able to make contributions twice. Both times my choice of actions was met with a comment about it messing something up. If I were younger or with a less self-esteem, I might have said I’m done with this PFS thing. We all know words can hurt. I'm asking you think about what you say and how you say it to newer players. You never know when you might lose one of them because of it.

Overall I had a wonderful time at PaizoCon. I met a lot of nice people, and got to play in more than a few games. I want to take a second to thank the volunteers who worked so hard to get this setup and going. A big thank you to all the players and GMs who answered my stupid questions. Especially to those players that took the time to help me understand what all those cool skills my character had in the Sunday night special did.

Scarab Sages

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CariMac,

Sorry to hear you had comments like that directed at you. It can happen from time to time to any of us. Playing up can be difficult, and sometimes frustrating. Players shouldn't tell you that doing something will mess something up, because their characters don't know that even if the player does. Meta-gaming is something that players have to reign themselves in on, so that you don't ruin the experience for others that might have no knowledge on what's going on in the game. I agree that the pre-gens for the Sunday Special were interesting and different.

Dark Archive

I'm looking forward to my first PFS game this weekend...the only thing that I'm really worried about is that it will be mostly metagaming, with little to no character investment or story involvement. I hope I am wrong, as it seems that metagaming would be the most likely source of an "experienced" player being upset with a new player unwilling to engage in such more than is necessary.

Sovereign Court 1/5

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One of the greatest things about Pathfinder Society is the people you meet.

One of the worst things about Pathfinder Society is the people you meet.

The Exchange 5/5

Quadstriker wrote:

One of the greatest things about Pathfinder Society is the people you meet.

One of the worst things about Pathfinder Society is the people you meet.

This is so very true...

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

Apple, it is also extremely region (and even table) dependent. Out here, we have people who are extremely metagaming in their character builds, (in the sense that they spend a lot of time tearing through the rules finding ways to do cool, bizare or downright strange things. Sometimes those things are even effective :) )

But once they get to the table, most of the metagaming gets shelved, and people roleplay their characters. (We spent a fair bit of the adventure before last arranging a present for ParaCountess Drahleen. Which had nothing to do with the scenario, and didn't wind up counting for our journal cards, but just seemed like something we would do. We then doorbell ditched her house and left the present on her porch. Last scenario most of the roleplaying involved my character getting yelled at and people running for cover everytime I read anything. Sheesh, you miss one lousy explosive rune...)

I usually only metagame at the table if the alternative is we all die, or if there is a really new player who is confused. (In the later case I try to keep it in the form of "here are some things your character could do if they wanted to.")

So even if you do have a bad experience, it is worth it to keep trying.

The one thing that will consistently get you an OOC "No! don't do *that*" is stepping into the Martial's charge lane. (Well, not from me, I try not to play martials who need charge lanes) But some of that is people's assumption that you have all trained together, and your characters should have some idea about eachothers tactics. (People who have special tactical needs do often try to mention them in the briefing, but sometimes people forget.) Even then, we usually try to keep it moderated to "can you make your move such that I can still charge?"

The Exchange 5/5

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whenever I read about OOC comments like your example above "No! Don't do *that* is stepping into the Martial's charge lane"

I am reminded of the scene from 13th Warrior when Ahmed (the Arab) starts to step forward to see better, and Rethel (the Archer) says: "DON'T step in from of me!" ... and he stops.

or earlier when Herger (the "Joyous" Viking) yanks Ahmed out of the way (saying just "Down!") so that Rethel can shoot a fire arrow into the mist...

Perhaps we should learn to coach it better in game speach... but it's effectively the same thing... IMHO

1/5

On occasion I have asked why someone is moving out of flanking position with one of my characters. If I went to the trouble of setting up the flank for someone to undo it can be fairly annoying.

Also when I play my AoE Evoker I warn party members that being in front of him might be unhealthy. Usually after the first major blast they do give him room to work.

5/5

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If no one points out when something you do is inconvenient, silly, ineffective, etc... then how do you expect to learn?

Shadow Lodge 4/5

nosig wrote:
Quadstriker wrote:

One of the greatest things about Pathfinder Society is the people you meet.

One of the worst things about Pathfinder Society is the people you meet.

This is so very true...

Sometimes you meet TOZ.

And then sometimes you meet TOZ.

Grand Lodge 4/5 ** Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver

I'm in on the OP with this. I'm getting tired of prepping scenarios, drawing maps, etc... only to have one player with an optimized build outright "clear" the scenario.
In my area (Denver), This happens too much. Yeah. I'm done GMing PFS here. Plenty of other's feel the same.

Sovereign Court 5/5

TOZ wrote:


Sometimes you meet TOZ.

And then sometimes you meet TOZ.

And sometimes TOZ meets you.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

roll4initiative wrote:

I'm in on the OP with this. I'm getting tired of prepping scenarios, drawing maps, etc... only to have one player with an optimized build outright "clear" the scenario.

In my area (Denver), This happens too much. Yeah. I'm done GMing PFS here. Plenty of other's feel the same.

Well, technically, that isn't the poster's problem, that is a different problem. (The poster's problem was that they were playing low tier in a group that was mostly high tier, and rather than be supportive and inclusive, the high tier people were only focused on what they were doing.)

As for your problem, have you tried auditing any of those characters? In my (admittedly) limited experience, a lot of "optomized" builds use things that are not PFS legal or are stacking stuff that does not stack.

If that doesn't work, get them to play Sealed Gate, high tier, hard mode, with a strict 4.5 hour time limit... :) (Make sure you have time to get the optional encounter in there, and make sure you bring full sized minis... )

Scarab Sages 5/5 5/5 *** Venture-Captain, Netherlands

TOZ wrote:
nosig wrote:
Quadstriker wrote:

One of the greatest things about Pathfinder Society is the people you meet.

One of the worst things about Pathfinder Society is the people you meet.

This is so very true...

Sometimes you meet TOZ.

And then sometimes you meet TOZ.

I am really starting to wonder if you carry around a mask in real life and put it on occasionally to make snarky coments.

5/5 5/55/55/5

CariMac wrote:
Their character's levels made it possible to play the higher tier. I was ineffective in combat to say the least.

Well, why is that their fault? Were you straddling the border? Deciding which character to play can be a bit of a catch 22. If they go high you my be useless if you're a front line meleer. If they go low, they'll roflstopm the scenario and get less gold. Other people have a right to pick which character to play with a scenario, either because its thematic , has a faction plot point, they feel like playing that character, they need to level a character to get him into a slot later...

Quote:
I tried to be helpful, but I don’t feel like I was. During the course of the scenario I felt I was able to make contributions twice. Both times my choice of actions was met with a comment about it messing something up.

Without knowing the specifics its hard to comment on that. That could be anything from a core rulebook to the head worthy offense of metagaming on their part to you actually messing something up that you should have known not to.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

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From one experienced player to another:

Sometimes you play with people who are inexperienced in PF, and it can be a bit irritating. They're not helping to set up flanks, get in the archer's line of fire, block the reach martial's zone control.

It's not fair to yell at them. And you shouldn't overwhelm them by pointing out all their mistakes. But if you keep silent about all of it then you're keeping them dumb, and that's not doing any favors either.

So it's about finding a balance; you can give constructive criticism, but you shouldn't expect perfection. And if the difficulty of the scenario allows for it (and it usually does), also try to find out what the newbie is trying to do (like Sneak Attack) and go out of your way to enable that.

Sometimes you have a party with super teamwork, and you feel awesome as a group because you're tearing through everything together. You're all making each other perform better. That's a great feeling.

We should try to give newbies a taste of that, let them feel how sweet it can be.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Playing up can be tough for all players. The low level character can sometimes be a real liability and sometimes the scenario can be deadly even for the higher tier. Its no so bad with a 6 player table but with a 4 or 5 player table the situation can be magnified.
One thing I have done at my store is before posting a scenario reach out to a few regulars and ask what tier they would like to see. A 3-7 table will then be posted as a 3-5 or 5-7.

As a GM we should also ask to speak to disruptive players off to the side.
Even a 4 or 5 star player at a convention could be working off of little or no sleep and just needs to be reminded that the game is for everyone.

We play twice a week around here and I see out of tier problems pop up only once a month or so....

Dark Archive

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Mahtobedis wrote:
If no one points out when something you do is inconvenient, silly, ineffective, etc... then how do you expect to learn?

Absolutely true...but I prefer it takes the form of "in character". My character wouldn't care what is inconvenient for you or what you find "silly", as a player, but she could be convinced by your character.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

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Starfinder Superscriber
<<REDACTED>> wrote:
TOZ wrote:


Sometimes you meet TOZ.

And then sometimes you meet TOZ.

And sometimes TOZ meets you.

IN THRUNE CHELIAX, TOZ MEET YOU.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Mahtobedis wrote:
If no one points out when something you do is inconvenient, silly, ineffective, etc... then how do you expect to learn?

I suspect the issue had a lot more to do with how it was pointed out rather than the fact it was pointed out.

To the OP, I sympathize. And while I agree with your plea, I don't think those who really need to listen to it are going to. Organized play can generate a certain amount of elitism, especially amongst the more experienced players. And it is not uncommon to find people with a "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen," mentality. While I try to discourage that when I encounter it, it is going to happen, just like you nothing is going to stop you running into jerks anywhere else. Just try not to let them spoil your fun. It is your fun, after all.

5/5 5/55/55/5

trollbill wrote:
Mahtobedis wrote:
If no one points out when something you do is inconvenient, silly, ineffective, etc... then how do you expect to learn?

I suspect the issue had a lot more to do with how it was pointed out rather than the fact it was pointed out.

.

Geeks are known for both lacking social skills and not taking criticism well, no matter how its put. I think ruffling some feathers is inevitable.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
trollbill wrote:
Mahtobedis wrote:
If no one points out when something you do is inconvenient, silly, ineffective, etc... then how do you expect to learn?

I suspect the issue had a lot more to do with how it was pointed out rather than the fact it was pointed out.

.

Geeks are known for both lacking social skills and not taking criticism well, no matter how its put. I think ruffling some feathers is inevitable.

Say, you wouldn't be criticizing my post now would you? Them's fight'en words!

1/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:


Geeks are known for both lacking social skills and not taking criticism well, no matter how its put.

No comment on the first part; but the latter is not entirely fair. Typically no one takes criticism well. It's more of a human trait and far from exclusive to 'geeks'.


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I take criticism just fine, unless it's from stupid jerk poopy faces, those people have no idea what they're talking about :-)

1/5

captain yesterday wrote:
I take criticism just fine, unless it's from stupid jerk poopy faces, those people have no idea what they're talking about :-)

I'm the same way. I'm a tank for criticism as long as everyone understands I am the one who's right. It's the other case that annoys me.


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"I'm not arguing with you. I'm explaining why I'm right."

Grand Lodge 2/5

Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
"I'm not arguing with you. I'm explaining why I'm right."

I always say it like this. This is what the book says, you can run it however you want, I really don't care as long as you know what the rules are.


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CariMac wrote:
I felt I was able to make contributions twice. Both times my choice of actions was met with a comment about it messing something up.

I really have to thank a banned player for helping me with this. At a convention a few years ago, a very large middle-aged man began berating a 10 year old kid because the kid wanted to do something slightly sub-optimal during his turn. The kid wasn't behaving badly and wasn't asking to wreck the game. He just wanted to do the second-best option instead of the first-best option. But this guy, oh God was he pissed. He yelled at the kid. The kid's parents weren't around to defend him or tell the grown man to act his age. The GM at the time was a young guy who sat there like a deer in headlights.

For my part, I was sitting at the table with my own son, and also had a deer-in-headlights response for a moment. I want my own kid to have to deal with adversity and figure things out. So, I have a general policy to stay out of things and let my son handle it. However, what happened next was this big dude grabbed the kid's mini, moved it for the kid, and said to the GM, "HE WILL DO THIS." And I snapped. The kid was sitting there half in a panic and half ready to cry, and I just felt like the kid didn't have the capacity to handle an adult being an imposing, threatening creep.

I said, "No, he should do what he wants to do, just like each of us. It's his character, he decides." The guy turned his ire on me, and spent the rest of the game being a pouty child about it. But the kid got to do what he wanted. After the game, the GM and another GM sat there with me, sorta shell-shocked, asking, "What the hell just happened?"

Two years later, I was in a game at a different convention, and there was a big guy that I recognized, but I wasn't sure why. During a combat encounter, some new player moved across the battlemat and engaged an enemy. Big guy didn't object. However, due to how the enemies subsequently moved, Mr. Big found his charge lane blocked by the new player. This could not have been predicted. However, Mr. Big was now furious and wanted to retcon everything. He yelled at his fellow player as if the player could have known what the enemies would do. He almost accused him of doing it deliberately. During the break, I pulled that player aside and said, "I recognize this guy. He screamed at a 10 year old boy for making an imperfect move a couple of years ago, almost had the boy in tears. This is his thing. It's how he works. He has no capacity to deal with adversity, and he lashes out. It's not you, you're great. Forget about him."

Unfortunately, I never saw that player again. He dropped out.

As for Mr. Big, he got banned from local conventions, and I really salute the leadership for doing that. It was needed. And that brings me to my point. At a recent convention, I ran a game with a kid and some adults. One adult was a GM in some other games and he was a rules lawyer. He continually interrupted me during my game, trying to tell me how to run it, and constantly re-mathed everything I did (and got it wrong since he didn't have the stat blocks or know what the bonuses were, so he got really testy when things weren't as he expected). He even requested to review my copy of the module after the game, pointing out any faults he could find.

As you might expect, at a certain point during the game, one of the kids did something imperfect, and this guy went a little obsessive. I don't think he even realized it. He went from sitting down, to standing, to leaning on the table to get in the kid's face. He was like, "No, you CAN'T do that, it will suck." The kid was sorta shrinking back into his chair. The kid kinda argued his point, but only as a young kid who was inexperienced with conflict could do. So he was not doing well, and the guy kept hammering him.

I thought, "Thank you big guy who was banned, because now I have experience with this, and I know what to do." I looked at Mr. Expert and said, "Stop. The kid gets to do whatever he wants. Whatever he wants. You don't get to play his character for him, not at my table."

He was like, "Well, uh, I guess."

I turned to the kid and said, "This is about what YOU say your character does, so you tell me, and I will make it happen. Don't worry about anyone else." Mr. backseat-GM sat down quietly. Whew.

It's not easy to directly confront a player and say, "STOP," but please do it if it's needed. Overbearing people can scare off newbies, and none of us want the game to die out due to lack of new players. Not even the overbearing people want that. They have no idea how they affect people.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Woran wrote:
I am really starting to wonder if you carry around a mask in real life and put it on occasionally to make snarky coments.

I should have stolen the Razmir mask from the guy I played the Delve with. (I think his name was Chris.)

CariMac wrote:
Overall I had a wonderful time at PaizoCon. I met a lot of nice people, and got to play in more than a few games. I want to take a second to thank the volunteers who worked so hard to get this setup and going. A big thank you to all the players and GMs who answered my stupid questions. Especially to those players that took the time to help me understand what all those cool skills my character had in the Sunday night special did.

To get back on track, I do apologize on behalf of the convention goers and hope that I didn't make any of the comments that upset you. I try to be patient and answer any questions that come my way, especially in the high tiers. (I mostly ran low levels this time, so we may not have crossed paths at all.)

Edit: outshyn, that is an amazing story. Thanks for sharing.

1/5

That definitely was a good share outshyn.

I think that we are culturally trained to feel it is impolite to correct the behavior of strangers. I think that's the whole 'deer in the headlights' reaction. But, by your tale you've made an excellent point, and it shows we do need to be assertive and to help guide people to the correct way to behave during games.

Dark Archive *

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
Woran wrote:
I am really starting to wonder if you carry around a mask in real life and put it on occasionally to make snarky coments.

I should have stolen the Razmir mask from the guy I played the Delve with. (I think his name was Chris.)

OVER MY DEAD BODY! that mask is my new most favouritist prized possession.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

THAT WAS YOU?

Good game at least!

Dark Archive *

'twas I. my ex-wife spent about fifteen hours making the mask for me.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

CariMac, I am sorry that you had a bad experience, without knowing what scenario you played, your experience and the other players, it is very hard to judge the situation properly.

The tone of their delivery might have been unacceptable, but that doesn't grand us insight into why they acted in such a fashion, there
are a number of scenarios out there where one wrong step can lead to a TPK.

I suspect, that you were just unlucky enough to sit at a table with a couple of difficult players, it is an unfortunate chance when you go to a convention, but the other people are usually worth it.

4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ****

I am glad that I have been lucky with the people I have met playing PFS... 99% great people who are nice and willing to be helpful... I have picked up a lot of suggestions and ideas from people I have played with and/or run for.

That said, there is generally little one can do about the bad eggs that occasionally crop up... especially at Cons.

The basic three things that should be reiterated, IMHO, are;
1.) It is a game we are all here to have fun.
2.) Everyone gets to play their own character, no one else's.
3.) If the antisocial/bullying behavior doesn't stop, there are repercussions.

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