GM Rewards for Conventions vs. Game Days


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5/5 5/55/55/5

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rknop wrote:
In fact, the post I was replying compared going to GenCon once a year to GMing game days for the entire year. This is just as, if not a more, off-base comparison than comparing the con to a game day.

Its not.

Part of what grates is that it doesn't matter HOW many game days you dm: the con goer still has better rewards. You can extrapolate out who has what for once a week, bi monthly, monthly or even once a day and that doesn't change: the con goer has the better reward. Con is greater than X days regardless of the value of X.

Quote:
You misrepresent entirely what I'm talking about. (Although, to be fair, I misrepresented what I was talking about a bit. The person was noting that a year's worth of gameday gaming is way more work than a single con, and if you do it weekly, then, yes, I agree with that.)

At some point the game day dm is doing work that should be rewarded more than it is now. At some point a game day dm is doing the same amount of work as a con game dm. At SOME point, the game day DM is doing more work, incurring more expense, and eating up more time. You can argue incomparables about when exactly those points are hit, but given point 1 above it doesn't really matter that much:

4/5 *

Paizo already has a lot of people to support regular game day GMs: they're called Venture-Officers. These folks get all sorts of stuff to help their areas grow, and it is their job to support and encourage the GMs running the regular events in their areas. They are the ones who should be trying to get those 16 players together for a weekend to get your GMs the prize support and racial boons.

Now, not everyone has a local V-O. (Although, we went from 13 V-C's in 2011 to what, several hundred? So they are a lot more common and wide-spread.) If you don't have a local one, the job description is here... consider applying yourself!

4/5

For whatever reason, I believe the campaign does prioritize convention GMs over game day GMs. So we probably need to brainstorm with that limitation in mind. If convention boons are in part a means to entice people to GM, you need to ensure that whatever game day GMs receive doesn't negate that.

I think offering convention boons from the previous year is a good compromise. They could be given based on GM stars, # of tables/month/year/whatever, given to VOs to hand out, etc.

Or maybe you could try to solve two problems and give them to stores to give out with the purchase of Paizo products. If they spend >$XX on Paizo products, they get to roll a d20 for a boon. You'd have to get stores on board, but I'd think they'd appreciate anything that helps drive sales.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

One thing to point out is that many of the GMs at conventions get to GM at convention because they run all year long, so it isn't necessarily one or the other its usually someone that is doing both.

I don't profess to know how Mike picks who GMs but I doubt there is a tier 1 GM who hasn't run something since last Gencon. I know I ran last Gencon and I have run 1 - 3 games a week, with time off for cons and vacation, since then.

I would like to see more rewards for those GMs who do put in so much time for us on a weekly basis. Store Coordinators, 4 - 5 star GMs, those of you who put so much into getting a Convention off the ground, you guys deserve a lot for keeping PFS going year to year and day to day. If you have some ideas, email Mike Brock or John Compton. Give them some ideas, something unique that you can reward those of you who put so much time into PFS. Somethings just won't happen, stuff they save for charity stuff, but something unique or cool and it could easily end up on a GM boon or reward.

Dark Archive *

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GM Lamplighter wrote:

Paizo already has a lot of people to support regular game day GMs: they're called Venture-Officers. These folks get all sorts of stuff to help their areas grow, and it is their job to support and encourage the GMs running the regular events in their areas. They are the ones who should be trying to get those 16 players together for a weekend to get your GMs the prize support and racial boons.

your mileage may vary. in my experience, once a store is established, it's left more or less autonomous. coordinators don't get much other than maybe a store discount *if* their store offers it. I was fortunate enough to get a nice discount on anything in the store, but I never got anything from paizo to compensate for my time or resources spent to run the store or to GM. one of my VO's was good enough to take his regular GMs out to dinner a couple times (out of his own pocket), which was appreciated, but that's it.

that also doesn't address the rewards discrepancy BigNorseWolf mentioned, that con GMs get better swag than every day GMs. and as Louis pointed out, con GMs typically *are* everyday GMs. but cons aren't for everyone. it would be nice to see some support for those of us who can't/won't/don't attend cons.

could we get a discount on scenario subscriptions or have materials supplied to store (pawn boxes, maps, etc), rather than having to foot the bill ourselves? I know I left a couple maps, a ton of dice and probably a ream of paper worth of printouts at my store when I stopped coordinating. none of which was compensated. I did it to help the community.

Grand Lodge 3/5

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Mark Stratton wrote:
It takes a great deal of effort to organize an event like that, to say nothing of our local 3 day cons. Regular game days, in my own experience, sort of run on their own - they get schedule, you get players and GMs, and away they go

This would be an argument if the organizers were the one getting the boons. But there's little difference between organizing to DM for a con vs DMing for a game day.

Great point BNW-

Not to mention that far too often the 'rush' to finish a particular scenario at Con in a specific period of time often results in a rushed feeling. In addition, Cons are much notorious for having DM's thrown in with little or no prep- resulting in a rather poor experience for the players.

But hey, they get their Boon, so it must be all good then right?

The simple fact is that all this thread (and the previous derailment on races) has done is really demonstrate the disparity between GM'ing at a store and Con- and pushing me towards doing less at my local store. Why bother if the actual commitment to consistently run a different PFS scenario 2-3 times a month isn't really appreciated by Paizo?

Grand Lodge 3/5

melferburque wrote:
GM Lamplighter wrote:

Paizo already has a lot of people to support regular game day GMs: they're called Venture-Officers. These folks get all sorts of stuff to help their areas grow, and it is their job to support and encourage the GMs running the regular events in their areas. They are the ones who should be trying to get those 16 players together for a weekend to get your GMs the prize support and racial boons.

your mileage may vary. in my experience, once a store is established, it's left more or less autonomous. coordinators don't get much other than maybe a store discount *if* their store offers it. I was fortunate enough to get a nice discount on anything in the store, but I never got anything from paizo to compensate for my time or resources spent to run the store or to GM. one of my VO's was good enough to take his regular GMs out to dinner a couple times (out of his own pocket), which was appreciated, but that's it.

that also doesn't address the rewards discrepancy BigNorseWolf mentioned, that con GMs get better swag than every day GMs. and as Louis pointed out, con GMs typically *are* everyday GMs. but cons aren't for everyone. it would be nice to see some support for those of us who can't/won't/don't attend cons.

could we get a discount on scenario subscriptions or have materials supplied to store (pawn boxes, maps, etc), rather than having to foot the bill ourselves? I know I left a couple maps, a ton of dice and probably a ream of paper worth of printouts at my store when I stopped coordinating. none of which was compensated. I did it to help the community.

Here, Here!

Excellent post! Really addresses the issue in a nutshell.

2/5

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So I'm certainly on the fence on this. I see both sides have equally valid concerns and points.

Cons need to provide GMs incentives to running games or they won't be able to offer gaming and therefore will lose some attendance and thus revenue (which they need to run the Con). Cons that make it a point to provide their GMs incentives to run are successful in recruiting those GMs. Cons that do not offer incentives have trouble finding anyone to volunteer for them, because really who wants to volunteer to run a game to line someone else's pocket. Cons are also likely the biggest opportunity to bringing in new players. I've GMed both for Cons and for gamedays. The number of new players to gamedays in the 3 years I've been playing and GMing is right around 10. I've had the same number of brand new players begin at one of the small regional cons that I've GMed, and those were the new players that I was aware of because they sat at my tables that weekend.

On the flip side, game day GMs are the basis of the community. Obviously I don't have figures, but I imagine that the number of reported tables Gamedays vs. Cons would likely be in the neighborhood of 3 to 1, conservatively. Most players aren't only playing at conventions (at least not the ones I've met), unless it's their very first time trying PFS (and when that's the case, the organizers are very quick to get them in touch with their VOs to ensure that they aren't lost in the interim). Gamedays also serve to bring people in and spend the money to continue the hobby's growth.

I GM because I enjoy it. I've got a good enough job that I can afford to pay and travel to Cons. There's 3 that I regularly attend in my area, 2 of which I often run the minimum tables necessary to get a free badge, simply because that $50 can be better spent allaying the cost of my hotel or just make it easier on me. I GM at gamedays to give the other regular GMs a break and to get the credit for a scenario a second time. I also Gm just for the making of a table. I keep a busy schedule though, so I don't get to GM nearly as often as I'd honestly like to. I appreciate that there are fringe benefits for GMing (stars, boons, chronicle sheets) and for Con GMing an increased award is certainly justified (which I don't think that anyone is saying that they shouldn't be rewarded for their volunteer hours, I think it's mostly that people think that Gameday GMs deserve an increased incentive). The problem is that there are already rewards for GMing, when is it enough? If they get Con GM boons a year late, how long until the cries from both sides start (either that they should have access at the same time or that it's not fair that I sacrificed the whole of my weekend and weeks ahead as well as travel expenses and I only get this lousy boon that I would have earned next year anyways)? It's difficult to balance the valid concerns. The fact that the efforts that campaign management has taken to provide increased rewards are looked at with disdain does not really encourage them to offer more rewards. I know when I first started GMing PFS there were Stars, but all that did was add them next to your board avatar. Over the few years that I've been involved in the campaign the increase in rewards has been substantial, in that there actually are some. I appreciate that there is some perk to GMing. I would do it without it because the hobby I've had for 2 decades needs me to step up so it can continue to grow and it's fun for me. And really, that's what I want out of a game. Fun!

4/5 *

melferburque wrote:
your mileage may vary. in my experience, once a store is established, it's left more or less autonomous.

I was speaking about Venture Officers, not store coordinators. VCs certainly should not complain about funding some things out of their own pocket, considering the benefits they recieve from Paizo. If they aren't passing on the support to their GMs, that's a different problem.

When I was a VO I printed scenarios for people, gave out GM Star ctificates, gifted scenarios to players, and gave out some of the boons I got at cons, as well as just bought things like folios to hand out here and there. Yes, it cost money, but the VC benefits MORE than offset any cost I had. Heck, I rented a hotel for our first Conovcation event on my own dime, and I STILL didn't come close to spending my own money compared to the benefits I received.

Quote:
that also doesn't address the rewards discrepancy BigNorseWolf mentioned, that con GMs get better swag than every day GMs.

Remember, the swag is not for gaming, it's for marketing, and it's easier to measure that at a con than at a game day. Maybe that is the issue to be solved - how to measure the impact of regular game days?

One thing often quoted is number of PFS numbers given away. Something reported to Paizo already is attendance at various venues. Perhaps some data mining would allow some quantitative measurement of game days to rewards.

Dark Archive *

GM Lamplighter wrote:
melferburque wrote:
your mileage may vary. in my experience, once a store is established, it's left more or less autonomous.

I was speaking about Venture Officers, not store coordinators. VCs certainly should not complain about funding some things out of their own pocket, considering the benefits they recieve from Paizo. If they aren't passing on the support to their GMs, that's a different problem.

When I was a VO I printed scenarios for people, gave out GM Star ctificates, gifted scenarios to players, and gave out some of the boons I got at cons, as well as just bought things like folios to hand out here and there. Yes, it cost money, but the VC benefits MORE than offset any cost I had. Heck, I rented a hotel for our first Conovcation event on my own dime, and I STILL didn't come close to spending my own money compared to the benefits I received.

my point was I rarely saw VOs once I started coordinating. in eighteen months, I had a whopping two tables run by a VO, and another three or four run by an ex VL from the area, when he had time. everything else was run by me, my co-coordinator, or a handful of regular GMs that were pressed into service. we averaged three tables a week in one of the larger markets for PFS, and in its heyday we hit five tables pretty consistently.

that's a lot of pressure to put on volunteers without support or recognition. the only reason I started coordinating in the first place is because the location was hosting a table or two twice a month, and even then the previous coordinator wasn't showing up much. there wasn't enough consistency to foster the potential the store had. when my friend and I started showing up every week with something to run, it took off and the store was dumped at our feet. no training given for coordinating a store. no goals given to us from leadership as far as how we should grow. despite being twenty minutes from paizo headquarters and the largest store in seattle proper, we never saw anyone from paizo.

in my limited experience, VOs have their pet stores and don't move much beyond those. we had a VL step down due to time constraints, a VL move and a VC disappeared suddenly, and no one replaced any of them in the hierarchy. we were left to fend for ourselves. so I quit coordinating, and have scaled back my PFS from three times a week to maybe once or twice a month. it just wasn't worth it.

Dark Archive 4/5

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There was a time when GMing in PFS granted you no chronicle sheet and no stars and no opportunity to replay. Yet people still GM'd in those times, for no more reward than growing their community and helping grow conventions in their area.

4/5

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Todd Morgan wrote:
There was a time when GMing in PFS granted you no chronicle sheet and no stars and no opportunity to replay. Yet people still GM'd in those times, for no more reward than growing their community and helping grow conventions in their area.

The times they are a'changin.......

Seriously, when you drop out of playing repeatedly to make sure other people have a chance to play, and no on else does......

A little reward would be nice.

1/5 Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover

Perhaps there should be a talk with some of that people who are only playing. Why don´t you ask some of your friends to GM? Lend them a scenario or buy one for their first time?
Can´t they give back a bit? Rotate Gming?
And i´m sure if they have problems or questions, there´s enough people to help them.
This seems more like an attitude problem to me.

What should Paizo do, pay GM´s for running?
Even though i myself can´t go to major conventions easily, i don´t feel the need to get so many boons. There´s a free race rotation already.
And seriously, most homegame GM´s i know would not let you run that weird powered up build that requires a special race anyway either.

And yes, gming some games is a great way to improve. Most people i know or met who gmed at some time were much better players on various levels.
I mainly started gming with PFS, because there was no one else.
What was difficult in the beginning became a lot of fun to me, fun that´s normaly the biggest reward. So big, it outweighs all the unnecessary discussions and listening to stories what is bad about Pathfinder or PFS or maps in RPG´s for the 1000th time.
And that´s also thanks to some great players around here^^

People make the game. If you feel bad about gming or not getting back enough, perhaps you should talk to that people you´re gaming with. In a friendly and open way, explaining what´s your problem. Surely there aren´t random people all the time.

4/5

At the events I run, I personally thank the GM's everytime. I make sure they know they are appreciated. I also suggest that someone buy them a drink, or lunch or something, even if the table puts in together. After all, if the GM has bought and printed the scenario, why not reimburse them as a player. Apart from that, the people who regularly step up to run events at games days, quickly become my go to guys when it does come time for a con and I need GM's. They will get some advance notice and will get to let me know which scenarios they would like to run before an open call. On top of that, they will get the con scenario's for free, and many thanks at the con maybe a meal out of it at the con if funds allow and a beer or two afterwards.

There are those locally who would like that consideration, but do not step up on a regular basis as they prefer to play, that is their choice bu they know what they are missing out on by doing so.

Dark Archive *

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Benjamin Falk wrote:


What should Paizo do, pay GM´s for running?

no one has asked to be paid to run. we're all aware this is a hobby, and a business for paizo. but that's the thing, boons are essentially free. the original point of this post was leveling the playing field for regular PFS GMs vs those who GM at cons. it would be nice to see some of the nicer boons that aren't con dependent.

I would also love to see a subscription option for scenarios. sure, you can buy an entire season once it's done, but that does nothing for the current scnearios which are in highest demand. some people would actually end up paying MORE money for a discounted subscription (say $3 each instead of $3.99) because they'd end up buying all of them, instead of cherry picking. there are subscription discounts for everything else, why not scenarios?

I know some stores offer GMs and coordinator discounts because they recognize the value PFS drives to their stores, but others don't. it would be great to see a modestly discounted GM kit for PFS. a beginner box or a bestiary box and some maps bundled together? something that could given to each store a la free RPG day perhaps?

a lot of the reason I've seen otherwise willing GMs reluctant to get involved is the cost. for some people, even buying a $4 scenario can be prohibitive, and paizo frowns on sharing PDFs. so short of lending them a printout or constantly running the handful of free options, some players don't feel they're able to start GMing with any regularity.

again, I understand it's a business. but paizo is also getting a lot of free labor from its volunteers and making money off them to boot. most of the more committed GMs I know (myself included) have spent hundreds or thousands of dollars on books, maps, minis, etc. it would just be nice to see a token gesture every now and then to those of us who have invested so much of our lives to the game.

4/5

Benjamin Falk wrote:
And seriously, most homegame GM´s i know would not let you run that weird powered up build that requires a special race anyway either.

Come play with me. My current shattered star campaign has a ratfolk, assimar, wereboar kin, goblin, svirfneblin, half-elf and human.

Any Paizo source except unchained, and they are asking me to allow parts of that.

Lantern Lodge 5/5

I can tell you this:

Race boons are not the reason I GM at cons. I have a folder full of them that just sit around. I'm willing to bet that most people who shell out the travel money, draw/print/buy maps, and prep their asses off because 6 people who you've never met and may never meet again are counting on you to make their convention experience have more important things to worry about. I'd trade the entire stack of them if it would make any table I ran even a smidgen better.

RE: Gamedays: Do I put in work to make sure gamedays in my area go off without a hitch? Of course. But I certainly don't buy a hotel room.

In Omaha, we're lucky. The surrounding communities have a close friendship- -the Sioux City (SD) group, the Iowa City group, the Des Moines(IA), the Kansas City(KC/MO), the Lincoln (NE), and the Minneapolis PFS lodges have all interacted in some way to make sure that conventions around here have gone off without a hitch. These are 4-7 hour drives. A race boon is the least we can do for them.

How do you propose we reward the people who do go out of their way to grow PFS in a community they don't even belong to?

Grand Lodge 4/5

Part of the problem in this thread is people with no experience at GMing at conventions, or GMing at Game Days, chiming in with incorrect or off-base information.

GMing at a Game Day, individually, is a bit of effort, You have to prepare the one (or two, if the Game Day has time for two slots, and not enough GMs to allow one slot's GMs to play during the other slot) scenario you are supposed to be running that day.

Depending on the scenario, and how you prep, that can take hours.

GMing at a Convention, especially if you are not a "casual" GM, who only volunteered for one or two slots, is a lot more intensive, for a lot less time, in many cases. Especially for GenCOn and PaizoCon, where you may only be receiving some of the newer scenarios, or specials, you are scheduled to run, a week before the Convention.

If you are lucky, or ask nicely, you might only have two or three different scenarios to prep, at only a few sub-tiers. On the other hand, if the Convention is trying to cover as much territory as possible, you can wind up having to prepare 10 different scenarios.

So, preparing to run at a Con, overall, is much higher stress, for a shorter time, than preparing to run for a Game Day. That is ignoring all the expenses both GMs have to deal with that are similar, like printing out the scenario(s), sign-up sheet(s), chronicles, etc. Add-in some of the expenses, whether covered by the Con organizers or not, associated with a Con, and the Con GM is paying more money, out of pocket, than the Game Day GM is, on a single session basis.

Depending on VO support, the Game Day GM might wind up with higher expenses, for the year, than the Con GM, if the Con GM only GMs at a single Con. On teh other hand, the Con GM does have things like potential airfare costs, and car rental costs, that the Game Day GM is probably not going to see.

Note: I won't get into the opportunity costs of private vs public transportation for GMs, as I have experienced both, and am always grateful to my players for a ride home afterwards. What sucks are the Game Days that don't happen, due to insufficient people showing up. Which is why I arranged the day I coordinated to run concurrent to the game store's board game night....

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Mulgar wrote:

Come play with me. My current shattered star campaign has a ratfolk, assimar, wereboar kin, goblin, svirfneblin, half-elf and human.

Any Paizo source except unchained, and they are asking me to allow parts of that.

*salutes* DM after my own heart, sir.

Silver Crusade 5/5

kinevon wrote:

Part of the problem in this thread is people with no experience at GMing at conventions, or GMing at Game Days, chiming in with incorrect or off-base information.

GMing at a Game Day, individually, is a bit of effort, You have to prepare the one (or two, if the Game Day has time for two slots, and not enough GMs to allow one slot's GMs to play during the other slot) scenario you are supposed to be running that day.

Depending on the scenario, and how you prep, that can take hours.

GMing at a Convention, especially if you are not a "casual" GM, who only volunteered for one or two slots, is a lot more intensive, for a lot less time, in many cases. Especially for GenCOn and PaizoCon, where you may only be receiving some of the newer scenarios, or specials, you are scheduled to run, a week before the Convention.

If you are lucky, or ask nicely, you might only have two or three different scenarios to prep, at only a few sub-tiers. On the other hand, if the Convention is trying to cover as much territory as possible, you can wind up having to prepare 10 different scenarios.

So, preparing to run at a Con, overall, is much higher stress, for a shorter time, than preparing to run for a Game Day. That is ignoring all the expenses both GMs have to deal with that are similar, like printing out the scenario(s), sign-up sheet(s), chronicles, etc. Add-in some of the expenses, whether covered by the Con organizers or not, associated with a Con, and the Con GM is paying more money, out of pocket, than the Game Day GM is, on a single session basis.

Depending on VO support, the Game Day GM might wind up with higher expenses, for the year, than the Con GM, if the Con GM only GMs at a single Con. On teh other hand, the Con GM does have things like potential airfare costs, and car rental costs, that the Game Day GM is probably not going to see.

Note: I won't get into the opportunity costs of private vs public transportation for GMs, as I have experienced both, and am always grateful to my players for a ride home...

Agreed. I've had a con back towards the beginning of my GM career where I GM'd six different scenarios in a seven-slot con. It was brutal, but a good learning experience. I drive about 1200 miles (counting the return trip) to GM at Gencon this year and last.

4/5

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
Mulgar wrote:

Come play with me. My current shattered star campaign has a ratfolk, assimar, wereboar kin, goblin, svirfneblin, half-elf and human.

Any Paizo source except unchained, and they are asking me to allow parts of that.

*salutes* DM after my own heart, sir.

Would love to be at the same table with you, whichever one of us is running it.....

2/5

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The only reward for a GM of any importance is to hear directly/indirectly from your players that a game(s) that you ran were amazing. I've run into people years later, who stated "holy shit, you ran X for us in PFS/LG/LC" 1-5-10yrs later.

Sovereign Court 1/5

Cephlomania wrote:
The only reward for a GM of any importance is to hear directly/indirectly from your players that a game(s) that you ran were amazing. I've run into people years later, who stated "holy s!&*, you ran X for us in PFS/LG/LC" 1-5-10yrs later.

Hear hear.

Chasing boons seems silly to me anyway and I don't see the big deal.

If they really wanted to throw GMs a bone, they'd help them out in the pocketbook. Personally I don't think GMs should be financially responsible for the cost of purchasing PFS scenarios, and I suspect that Paizo would see better long term and big picture profits if the price for it was $0.00. Errecting a financial barrier for GMing in an organized play setting when GMs are the gateway to getting people purchasing bucketloads of product has always rubbed me the wrong way.

I'd be interested in seeing what a "the scenarios are free for GMs" financial structure looked like in an alternative universe.

4/5

Quadstriker wrote:
Cephlomania wrote:
The only reward for a GM of any importance is to hear directly/indirectly from your players that a game(s) that you ran were amazing. I've run into people years later, who stated "holy s!&*, you ran X for us in PFS/LG/LC" 1-5-10yrs later.

Hear hear.

Chasing boons seems silly to me anyway and I don't see the big deal.

If they really wanted to throw GMs a bone, they'd help them out in the pocketbook. Personally I don't think GMs should be financially responsible for the cost of purchasing PFS scenarios, and I suspect that Paizo would see better long term and big picture profits if the price for it was $0.00. Errecting a financial barrier for GMing in an organized play setting when GMs are the gateway to getting people purchasing bucketloads of product has always rubbed me the wrong way.

I'd be interested in seeing what a "the scenarios are free for GMs" financial structure looked like in an alternative universe.

Free scenarios or financial help is impossible. Scenarios cost money to produce, while the cost of boons is neglible.

5/5

I would be very much in favour of a reconsideration of the system of "the first time you GM a scenario, you get a boon; subsequent times, you get nothing". In my experience from both sides of the screen, the game gets better the more times a GM runs a scenario, and we should be encouraging this.

Horizon Hunters 4/5 5/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis

Mekkis wrote:

I would be very much in favour of a reconsideration of the system of "the first time you GM a scenario, you get a boon; subsequent times, you get nothing". In my experience from both sides of the screen, the game gets better the more times a GM runs a scenario, and we should be encouraging this.

Did you mean the first time you GM, you get a chronicle sheet? Is that what you mean? (I presume you are using "boon" and "chronicle sheet" interchangeably, so I'm just making sure.)

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic

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Mekkis wrote:
"the first time you GM a scenario, you get a boon; subsequent times, you get nothing".

You get GM rating, you get more mileage from your prep, you get to see different characters handle the scenario.

And sometimes giving your players a better experience is it's own reward.

I love running a scenario multiple times! I am always a bit disappointed when another GM runs one of my personal favorites locally.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

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Starfinder Superscriber

Agreed, it's fun to run scenarios more than once.

If you're GMing only for the chronicle sheets or the boons, then you should probably reconsider whether you should GM at all. Not because necessarily you're bad at it-- but because, fundamentally, it's not worth it. You spend too much energy, too many hours of your life, doing something you don't want to do for what is really a tiny, tiny reward. This is a hobby. You should be doing it because you like it. If you don't like it, find another hobby, or approach your hobby differently.

If you prefer to play, but are willing to GM because you understand that that's just part of what you do, and you're decent at GMing, great! But if you're doing it just for the boons-- really, you're doing it for the wrong reasons.

I've met people who prefer to GM than to play. Me, I'm 50/50. I like GMing. I do it because I want to do it. Indeed, when I was 10 or 15 games in, I started wanting to rerun scenarios, not only because you do it better and learn more about the scenario the second time you run it, but also because I wanted to not build up too much GM credit on characters I would as a result never play. (Of course, I could always just not take GM credit the first time around.)

I'm not saying "only those who do it purely for the love should GM". But, if you don't like it, and only want the rewards, and wouldn't do it without the rewards, then, yeah, for your own sake you probably shouldn't be doing it.

4/5

We're together some surveys in our area (via Survey Monkey) to get a feel for what our GMs are dealing with, whether they're burning out, get some ideas for helping or rewarding them, etc. Instead of guessing what GMs in our area want or need, we're just going to ask them.

I'm just about finished with the survey design. If you're interested in seeing it, PM me and I'll send you a link to the preview. (After this one is finished, I'm putting together one for "If you're thinking about GMing but don't, what's stopping you?"

Silver Crusade 3/5

Auke Teeninga wrote:

You get GM rating, you get more mileage from your prep, you get to see different characters handle the scenario.

And sometimes giving your players a better experience is it's own reward.

I love running a scenario multiple times! I am always a bit disappointed when another GM runs one of my personal favorites locally.

And this is why I feel it's a waste of my time. I have more GM credits then I do player credits. Yet there are no new GMs in my area. The main reason I joined PFSP was to get a chance to play the game. I run most of the home games with my group. Yet I GM over 50% of the time at PFSP really defeats the reason I started. Now I don't mind helping out. It's when we keep losing GMs in my area. Because they don't like running games every week, and get burned out. I take long 3 to 5 month brakes from PFSP. Just because I get tired of running games almost all the time I'm their. This could just be my area. However there is a really good chance it's not.

So yes something needs to happen to make people want to GM. I under stand Con. draw a lot of people to the game. The problem is if you want them to stay part of PFSP you need to increase the number of local people willing to GM. Other wise your left with people that can play at cons, but not at local game days due to lack of GM.

So far what has been done is just tokens for every day GMs. With con. GMs getting special treatment. Now I don't want to take any thing away from con. GMs. However if you expect that not to lead to bad feelings about my time with PFSP. You are mistaken. The fact is I might keep going to play and I might still GM some games. After hitting my 3rd GM star. I stopped going to PFSP for 4 months or so. Their are no incentives for me to return as a GM. I can not go to conventions for personal reasons. So far all that has been done has not fixed the problem of getting more local GMs. If any thing it has made it harder to get people to GM.

The solution is not to take away from con GM. As that is how they get people to GM at con. However the current GM star reward boon is not used. I have never used mine, or seen any local GM use their. So that's not really going to draw players to GM. If they see a boon from GMing that is used! That might get people to start GM. However that will require different rewards then are what is currently available. As the current GM star boon is next to useless. Until you get in to the high level of stars. Even then it's still only somewhat useful.

Silver Crusade 3/5

rknop wrote:

Agreed, it's fun to run scenarios more than once.

If you're GMing only for the chronicle sheets or the boons, then you should probably reconsider whether you should GM at all. Not because necessarily you're bad at it-- but because, fundamentally, it's not worth it. You spend too much energy, too many hours of your life, doing something you don't want to do for what is really a tiny, tiny reward. This is a hobby. You should be doing it because you like it. If you don't like it, find another hobby, or approach your hobby differently.

If you prefer to play, but are willing to GM because you understand that that's just part of what you do, and you're decent at GMing, great! But if you're doing it just for the boons-- really, you're doing it for the wrong reasons.

I've met people who prefer to GM than to play. Me, I'm 50/50. I like GMing. I do it because I want to do it. Indeed, when I was 10 or 15 games in, I started wanting to rerun scenarios, not only because you do it better and learn more about the scenario the second time you run it, but also because I wanted to not build up too much GM credit on characters I would as a result never play. (Of course, I could always just not take GM credit the first time around.)

I'm not saying "only those who do it purely for the love should GM". But, if you don't like it, and only want the rewards, and wouldn't do it without the rewards, then, yeah, for your own sake you probably shouldn't be doing it.

So your generally saying I should stop GMing at PFSP. OK thanks for letting me know.

1/5

Auke Teeninga wrote:
Mekkis wrote:
"the first time you GM a scenario, you get a boon; subsequent times, you get nothing".

You get GM rating, you get more mileage from your prep, you get to see different characters handle the scenario.

And sometimes giving your players a better experience is it's own reward.

I love running a scenario multiple times! I am always a bit disappointed when another GM runs one of my personal favorites locally.

I actually think that GMing becomes much more enjoyable after I have GM'd a scenario 5+ times. The first few times your just trying to get the timing and mechanics down. I find that it isn't until around the 4th time GMing a scenario that I start to focus on building a role playing repertoire for the characters. Once you got all that under your belt, GMing the scenario becomes a lot more like playing it.

I would love to see some kind of reward for GMing scenarios over and over again. Something that promotes mastery of a given scenario and great table experiences. Say, a cool boon for GMing 5 different scenarios 5-10+ times each.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Two is definitely more relaxed and enjoyable. 5 is starting to hit deja vu fatigue.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Starfinder Superscriber
calagnar wrote:
So your generally saying I should stop GMing at PFSP. OK thanks for letting me know.

If you're not enjoying it, then, yes, you really should. This is a hobby. Don't do it if it's aggravation and not fun.

Sovereign Court 1/5

Mulgar wrote:
Quadstriker wrote:
Cephlomania wrote:
The only reward for a GM of any importance is to hear directly/indirectly from your players that a game(s) that you ran were amazing. I've run into people years later, who stated "holy s!&*, you ran X for us in PFS/LG/LC" 1-5-10yrs later.

Hear hear.

Chasing boons seems silly to me anyway and I don't see the big deal.

If they really wanted to throw GMs a bone, they'd help them out in the pocketbook. Personally I don't think GMs should be financially responsible for the cost of purchasing PFS scenarios, and I suspect that Paizo would see better long term and big picture profits if the price for it was $0.00. Errecting a financial barrier for GMing in an organized play setting when GMs are the gateway to getting people purchasing bucketloads of product has always rubbed me the wrong way.

I'd be interested in seeing what a "the scenarios are free for GMs" financial structure looked like in an alternative universe.

Free scenarios or financial help is impossible. Scenarios cost money to produce, while the cost of boons is neglible.

I don't accept that.

"Oh you GMed 5 scenarios? Have a free one!" Not hard. And a *real* boon that would help GMs.

5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I find the third time running something for me is the sweet spot. I've got all weird mechanics figured out completely, I know where the players are likely to go off rails, I know exactly how to get them focused again, I've got unique voices for each NPC, and my roleplaying has more depth. But I haven't completely memorized all the stat blocks yet, and I can still be surprised when the players do something unexpected.

On topic, I'm bleeding for GMs locally. My area continues to grow, and I just don't have the GMs to back it up. I've got about 8 regular GMs, and we run 6-7 tables per week. That means that some GMs are running two tables a week, and playing every third or fourth week. I'll be honest, I'm just not sure what to do about it. I make it as easy for the GMs as possible by handling reporting, providing chronicle sheets and loaner copies of scenarios, maps when available, etc, but there's not much else I can do.

I'm interested in all suggestions.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Starfinder Superscriber
Nick Greene wrote:
I'm interested in all suggestions.

Fly me down once a week :) I'll GM....

On a more serious note: look at the players. Are there some that you think might make good GMs? Suggest that they give it a try, find out if they like it. Don't pressure them to commit to more than a single game, and tell them it's OK if they decide they don't like it. But they might.

4/5

Quadstriker wrote:
Mulgar wrote:
Quadstriker wrote:
Cephlomania wrote:
The only reward for a GM of any importance is to hear directly/indirectly from your players that a game(s) that you ran were amazing. I've run into people years later, who stated "holy s!&*, you ran X for us in PFS/LG/LC" 1-5-10yrs later.

Hear hear.

Chasing boons seems silly to me anyway and I don't see the big deal.

If they really wanted to throw GMs a bone, they'd help them out in the pocketbook. Personally I don't think GMs should be financially responsible for the cost of purchasing PFS scenarios, and I suspect that Paizo would see better long term and big picture profits if the price for it was $0.00. Errecting a financial barrier for GMing in an organized play setting when GMs are the gateway to getting people purchasing bucketloads of product has always rubbed me the wrong way.

I'd be interested in seeing what a "the scenarios are free for GMs" financial structure looked like in an alternative universe.

Free scenarios or financial help is impossible. Scenarios cost money to produce, while the cost of boons is neglible.

I don't accept that.

"Oh you GMed 5 scenarios? Have a free one!" Not hard. And a *real* boon that would help GMs.

That's not what was said. What was said was scenarios cost should be $0.00, which is impossible.

Sovereign Court 1/5

You said "Free scenarios or financial help is impossible". I interpreted that as meaning "There is no way to give out scenarios for free at all."

I don't accept *that* as a blanket statement.

I gave an example of a possible boon idea for giving out free scenarios or financial help.

What you were probably trying to get across to me (I don't mean to put words in your mouth) was that scenarios can't cost $0 as a general practice. That is the point that I think would be an interesting discussion to have with the good people at Paizo, as only they have the financial books to know what the true cost of producing a scenario given all things considered. Scenario production as a loss leader in an attempt to encourage GMs, build more PFS groups, and move more product is an idea worth of consideration in my opinion, but one that we're not fully qualified to discuss here on this forum simply because we don't have enough information.

I'm also fully willing to accept that my idea isn't fully fleshed out and developed and may be wholly incorrect. Just something that I thought was worthy of thought exploration by the community.

Dark Archive 4/5 5/5 ****

Nick Greene wrote:

I find the third time running something for me is the sweet spot. I've got all weird mechanics figured out completely, I know where the players are likely to go off rails, I know exactly how to get them focused again, I've got unique voices for each NPC, and my roleplaying has more depth. But I haven't completely memorized all the stat blocks yet, and I can still be surprised when the players do something unexpected.

On topic, I'm bleeding for GMs locally. My area continues to grow, and I just don't have the GMs to back it up. I've got about 8 regular GMs, and we run 6-7 tables per week. That means that some GMs are running two tables a week, and playing every third or fourth week. I'll be honest, I'm just not sure what to do about it. I make it as easy for the GMs as possible by handling reporting, providing chronicle sheets and loaner copies of scenarios, maps when available, etc, but there's not much else I can do.

I'm interested in all suggestions.

Todd,

perhaps it is time to run a GM101 seminar for your area... get some of your local GMs to help out, but give people the chance to learn how to GM. Also, perhaps use some of your more experienced GMs to help mentor the new ones... pair them up with a new GM, have them actually play a scenario (one they've run before, so they can help the newbie out perhaps?)

Teach them that it isn't scary, and that they don't have to know every little rule in the book.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Quadstriker wrote:

You said "Free scenarios or financial help is impossible". I interpreted that as meaning "There is no way to give out scenarios for free at all."

I don't accept *that* as a blanket statement.

Especially since I get them for free all the time. :)

Sovereign Court 1/5

Well we don't all have special pictures of Mr. Brock to use as negotiating tactics.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Just buy him beer. Worked out wonderfully this past weekend!

Sovereign Court 1/5

You'll find out in a few hours that works surprisingly well on us too.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West

4 people marked this as a favorite.

I always assumed that the reason VOs got scenarios for free was so that we could print out a hardcopy of a scenario for a GM to use.

If the cost of buying a scenario is giving you problems, ask for help. Somebody at tonight's table might have a copy they could lend you, or be willing to buy you a copy of a scenario as a gift so you can run it for your group next month. Some game stores have a library of scenarios (and maps, and minis, ...) behind the counter that you could use. If your game store has a table fee, they might be prepared to buy the scenario for you. And if all else fails, ask your local VOs. (But don't ask them too often - while the scenario itself might be free, ink and paper most definitely aren't!).

PFS works best when everybody contributes. If the GM workload is spread around fairly evenly amongst all the players then, on average, you're spending perhaps $1/session on buying scenarios. But if you've got players in your area who never GM, or contribute in any way, this is a problem, especially if this is leading to GM burnout. That's when somebody has to make the hard decisions as to how many players the local GM pool can support, and who gets those seats at the table.

1/5

John Francis wrote:


I always assumed that the reason VOs got scenarios for free was so that we could print out a hardcopy of a scenario for a GM to use.

Yep. I never had to purchase a scenario if it was at a game day run by a VO. I have only purchased them for personal game groups.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

5 people marked this as a favorite.
Cephlomania wrote:
The only reward for a GM of any importance is to hear directly/indirectly from your players that a game(s) that you ran were amazing. I've run into people years later, who stated "holy s$%%, you ran X for us in PFS/LG/LC" 1-5-10yrs later.

You are missing part of the point here. PFS GMs aren't just running a game for their players. They are running it for Paizo, as well. So a 'Thank You' should come from both the players and Paizo. There are many ways player can and do say 'thank you'. Paizo typically says 'thank you' via things like GM stars and boons. The question at point here is how much of a 'thank you' non-con GMs should receive.

Once upon a time there was another RPG publisher who had a thriving organized play campaign. They rewarded all GMs based on how much they GMed as well as gave out additional rewards at Cons. Initially, these rewards took the form of free minis mailed to the GMs. After a while, the company decided this was rather expensive and it was changed to a form of printed boon. After a while more, the company decided that keeping track of player and GM statistics wasn't cost effective and scrapped their entire rewards system except at Cons. People got upset, not because they were no longer getting free swag, but rather because this sent a clear message that the company simply didn't care about its GMs unless they GMed at Cons. As a consequence, GMs left the campaign in droves and it collapsed.

Suggesting that if you expect more reward than just the praise of your players then you are somehow not a "GM of any importance," is both incredibly condescending and completely devoid of any reality.

Dark Archive *

Lab_Rat wrote:
John Francis wrote:


I always assumed that the reason VOs got scenarios for free was so that we could print out a hardcopy of a scenario for a GM to use.
Yep. I never had to purchase a scenario if it was at a game day run by a VO. I have only purchased them for personal game groups.

I have never received a free scenario from a VO. then again, I can count on one hand the number of times I even saw a VO at my store in eighteen months.

sure, I picked up a lot of my scenarios when they were on sale, but I've still purchased over fifty scenarios and modules.

Scarab Sages 4/5 **

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber

Trollbill makes a good point. While both our Convention organizers and game day crews can find ways to reward GMS, it's nice to have a reward come directly from Paizo - as it is an acknowledgement straight from the gaming company itself.

That said, I have trouble thinking of things that are simple to do. Gamedays are spread out all over the world, some of them with only a few GMs. That's a lot of places to direct rewards (as opposed to a smaller number of conventions worldwide).

For me, I would love to get credit for free scenario downloads. Those of us at 1-3 stars spend a decent amount of coin to run these adventures. I think a system where VOs and coordinators can distribute a free scenario credit (or several) would work. Then Paizo can effectively delegate the reward activity to the VOs. I don't know if Paizo's purchase system can handle store credit that can only be used on scenarios - they can certainly COMP specific scenarios (as they do for conventions).

Just my thoughts. I don't know how exactly I would implement that intelligently, in a way that doesn't create lots of work for Piazo or lots of room for abuse.

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