Item Creation Feats in Organised Play


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Silver Crusade 4/5

Hi All,

I've recently been contemplating what the impact would be if campaign leadership decided to introduce magic item creation to organised play. Assuming that:

  • You cannot create custom magic items.
  • Skill checks to create magic items must be made by taking 10.
  • You cannot create magic items for others.
  • Magic items with a cost over 1,000gp cost prestige for the time spent in a similar fashion to retraining.

    What would be the advantages and drawbacks if this was included in the campaign? Is this open to abuse, or is there anything that I have overlooked?

    I'm posting this thread to discuss a passing curiosity, and am not expecting (or necessarily want) item creation to be a part of the organised play campaign, but I do know that there are plenty of players out there that miss being able to create their own items. This rule has been around since the start of season 0, and from what I can tell a lot has changed over the last 7 years. I'm sure item creation has been discussed at length many times before, but some thoughts on this from the community at this point in time would be smashing.

  • Grand Lodge

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    Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    It would add a ton of complexity and new questions and support. In short you'd have yet another set of things to police. And most of those players wouldn't be happy enough at putting in the feats. They'd want custom items to, and most likely the staff would be facing another round of "put this in requests."

    In essence it's a change that adds complexity with no net gain in campaign quality of life.

    Grand Lodge 5/5

    Extra paperwork. More time for GMs when filling out chronicles. More rules areas that are incomplete/poorly understood. It is more hassle than it is worth. If they ever all the feats to be taken, it should just be a reduction in cost for your magic items, in my opinion.

    Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

    A lot of magic items require GM adjudication. There is no universal formula for every item.

    Two examples come to mind: Ring of Invisibility and Longarm Bracers. As custom items, if crafted from the ground up, they are substantially cheaper than the items we already have in print.

    Shadow Lodge 4/5

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

    It would vastly increase the power level of many characters. People would be able to stretch their character's wealth nearly twice as far, and once again, spellcasters would make out a lot better than martial classes.

    3/5

    The problem as I understand it is wealth by level.

    Swordsman Bob gets 18,000gp and buys a +3 sword.
    Magus Bill gets 18,000gp, crafts a +3 sword and pockets 9,000gp in change.

    The magus has invested a feat, but is 9,000gp ahead of the swordsman in terms of WBL and pulls further ahead with each item he crafts.

    The bigger the wealth and power gap gets between characters of the same level the harder it is to write scenarios with an appropriate difficulty.

    That's the problem any rules change would need to solve. Charging the Magus 9 prestige helps, but it still means he's selling prestige for 2,000gp per 2 points while everyone else is selling it for 750gp per 2 points. The Magus also gets to spend 9 prestige to recover 9,000gp while non-crafters can't spend 9 prestige to get an item worth 3,375gp.

    Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

    Currently there's a limit on how effectively you can convert Prestige to gold; you can buy items up to 750gp and a select number of spells that cost more, but those are mostly used to fix things that have gone very wrong. So, that's something your proposal would change.

    Another thing is that the magic item rules are fairly complex, even for standard items. Exactly what prerequisites you can and can't skip is a set of rules that tends to surprise a LOT of players and GMs. I predict a lot of arguments.

    (Though it might also fuel a PDT push to hash out the item creation rules in clearer text.)

    Personally I don't really see a need to introduce this. I think the gains (as in, improvement to the game and fun) will be on the small side while the effort involved is large.

    I think that crafting-oriented characters are better enjoyed in ongoing campaigns that can actually do something with downtime. Since PFS essentially doesn't do downtime, I don't think crafting is a good fit.

    3/5

    Between the prestige costs you suggest (or, honestly, the lack of it), and the potential paperwork that it would require to manage, I'm not really a fan of the crafting idea.

    1/5

    I think the item creation feats need to be looked at on a case by case baseis. Scribe Scroll was used to make the wizard more combat effective at lower levels. Other classes that use Brew Potion to enhance how they work need to be consider.

    I can understand not wanting to add Magical Arms and Armor, but since non spellcasters can get it with purchase of an extra feat the argument of the WBL seems weaker.

    Dark Archive 4/5

    2 people marked this as a favorite.

    if they ever make crafting feats legal i would do 2 things.

    1) quit being the gm, because I'm not interested in adjudicating all stupid stuff players can do.

    2) make all gm's i play under adjudicate some stupid stuff.

    The Exchange 4/5 5/5

    Ring_of_Gyges wrote:

    The problem as I understand it is wealth by level.

    Swordsman Bob gets 18,000gp and buys a +3 sword.
    Magus Bill gets 18,000gp, crafts a +3 sword and pockets 9,000gp in change.

    The magus has invested a feat, but is 9,000gp ahead of the swordsman in terms of WBL and pulls further ahead with each item he crafts.

    Everyone I have talked to who participated in earlier living campaigns that allowed crafting said that this was the biggest issue surrounding crafting.

    Not just the obvious (players favoring certain classes based on crafting ability meant that some classes desirable in a group would rarely be played) but the knock-on effects such as discouraging newer players (whose non-crafting characters were completely overshadowed by crafters who did all they could and much more).

    4/5 *

    Net result: PCs effectively have even better gear than they do now, and we have lots more paperwork to do. No thanks. Besides, we're Pathfinders, not factory workers.

    Grand Lodge 4/5

    Other Effects: Even more prestige farming, for crafters you could kiss any modules, and APs goodbye. Other than, maybe, Fangwood. Not to mention that burning Prestige is, IMO, a worse implementation of between scenario time than the old LG TUs were.

    Silver Crusade 4/5

    Thanks everyone for the input so far. Below are my current thoughts on each of the issues raised.

    Issue 1: Extra Paperwork

    Quintin Verassi wrote:
    Extra paperwork. More time for GMs when filling out chronicles. More rules areas that are incomplete/poorly understood. It is more hassle than it is worth. If they ever all the feats to be taken, it should just be a reduction in cost for your magic items, in my opinion.
    GM Lamplighter wrote:
    Net result: PCs effectively have even better gear than they do now, and we have lots more paperwork to do. No thanks. Besides, we're Pathfinders, not factory workers.

    If you eliminate the need for rolls and custom items are not allowed, how much extra paperwork is there really? GMs may feel inclined to check a characters spellcraft modifier to see if they are able to craft an item, but is this really any different from checking a characters fame?

    Issue 2: Wealth by Level

    The Morphling wrote:
    It would vastly increase the power level of many characters. People would be able to stretch their character's wealth nearly twice as far, and once again, spellcasters would make out a lot better than martial classes.
    Ring_of_Gyges wrote:

    The problem as I understand it is wealth by level.

    Swordsman Bob gets 18,000gp and buys a +3 sword.
    Magus Bill gets 18,000gp, crafts a +3 sword and pockets 9,000gp in change.

    The magus has invested a feat, but is 9,000gp ahead of the swordsman in terms of WBL and pulls further ahead with each item he crafts.

    The bigger the wealth and power gap gets between characters of the same level the harder it is to write scenarios with an appropriate difficulty.

    That's the problem any rules change would need to solve. Charging the Magus 9 prestige helps, but it still means he's selling prestige for 2,000gp per 2 points while everyone else is selling it for 750gp per 2 points. The Magus also gets to spend 9 prestige to recover 9,000gp while non-crafters can't spend 9 prestige to get an item worth 3,375gp.

    Kevin Willis wrote:

    Everyone I have talked to who participated in earlier living campaigns that allowed crafting said that this was the biggest issue surrounding crafting.

    Not just the obvious (players favoring certain classes based on crafting ability meant that some classes desirable in a group would rarely be played) but the knock-on effects such as discouraging newer players (whose non-crafting characters were completely overshadowed by crafters who did all they could and much more).

    For the prestige cost on magic items, perhaps it should also be included that you cannot increase the craft DC by 5 to hastily craft an item. So in Ring_of_Gyges's example, the prestige cost would be 18, and not 9. The result here is that each prestige point carries a value of 500gp in magic item creation. This would greatly limit any potential abuse for creating numerous powerful magic items.

    It is also worth mentioning that the crafter must be at least CL 9 to craft this weapon, so this example is only relevant for 3 levels of non-seeker play. An abuse that is relevant for the majority of a characters PFS career might showcase this a little better.

    Issue 3: Custom magic items

    Nefreet wrote:

    A lot of magic items require GM adjudication. There is no universal formula for every item.

    Two examples come to mind: Ring of Invisibility and Longarm Bracers. As custom items, if crafted from the ground up, they are substantially cheaper than the items we already have in print.

    Nesterin Elbauthin Marikoth wrote:

    if they ever make crafting feats legal i would do 2 things.

    1) quit being the gm, because I'm not interested in adjudicating all stupid stuff players can do.

    2) make all gm's i play under adjudicate some stupid stuff.

    No custom magic items. If it isn't a PFS legal item, you can't craft it. There could also be an argument for requiring the correct amount of fame or to have the item on a chronicle before being able to craft it.

    Issue 4: Prestige Farming

    kinevon wrote:
    Other Effects: Even more prestige farming, for crafters you could kiss any modules, and APs goodbye. Other than, maybe, Fangwood. Not to mention that burning Prestige is, IMO, a worse implementation of between scenario time than the old LG TUs were.

    I would argue that this is an issue with the way prestige points are handed out for modules and AP, and isn't an issue with magic item creation.

    5/5 5/55/55/5

    The problem is that a caster can take craft wondrous item and double their wealth by level.

    5/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Captain, Germany—Hamburg

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    I suppose the biggest argument concerning wealth by level is the crafter doubles their own WBL only.
    In a home campaign, every character in the party can ask the crafter to make something for them, so it doubles the entire party's WBL, which a GM can work with.
    If only one character has double WBL, that makes the party very unbalanced, expecially at higher levels.

    5/5 5/55/55/5

    Andreas Forster wrote:

    I suppose the biggest argument concerning wealth by level is the crafter doubles their own WBL only.

    In a home campaign, every character in the party can ask the crafter to make something for them, so it doubles the entire party's WBL, which a GM can work with.
    If only one character has double WBL, that makes the party very unbalanced, expecially at higher levels.

    I can't decide if thats better or worse. Sure, nothing ever saves against the wizard and his mighty +6 int headband, but at least the fighter has his own vorpal flaming holy avenger. How you compare to your party members is at least as important as how you compare to the dungeon.

    4/5 *

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    BigNorseWolf wrote:
    How you compare to your party members is at least as important as how you compare to the dungeon.

    This, exactly. While PFS isn't a competition, no one likes being outshone, epsecially if it's the gear and not the character build outshining them.

    We're not grocers, we're adventurers. Allowing people to buy any item out of the book is already making magic a lot more common than most games I've played. Cutting the price on those items for only certain classes sets up too much imbalance.

    4/5

    Jack Amy wrote:

    Nefreet wrote:

    A lot of magic items require GM adjudication. There is no universal formula for every item.
    Two examples come to mind: Ring of Invisibility and Longarm Bracers. As custom items, if crafted from the ground up, they are substantially cheaper than the items we already have in print.
    Nesterin Elbauthin Marikoth wrote:
    if they ever make crafting feats legal i would do 2 things.
    1) quit being the gm, because I'm not interested in adjudicating all stupid stuff players can do.
    2) make all gm's i play under adjudicate some stupid stuff.
    No custom magic items. If it isn't a PFS legal item, you can't craft it. There could also be an argument for requiring the correct amount of fame or to have the item on a chronicle before being able to craft it.

    I don't need custom items to do some stupid stuff, double wealth by level is quite enough for that, thank you very much.

    Silver Crusade 4/5

    BigNorseWolf wrote:
    The problem is that a caster can take craft wondrous item and double their wealth by level.

    I'll concede that craft wondrous item is certainly problematic by how broad it is, and that 3 of the big 6 are wondrous items.

    Putting that to one side for the moment (I'll think on that in more detail later), and perhaps staying truer to the item creation rules, but sticking with 1 prestige point per day spent crafting, no quick crafting, the only items that could be created without using prestige are those that come in at a base price of 250gp or less. In this case, you'd be trading a feat for discounted low level consumables.

    Craft Scroll: 1st and 2nd level scrolls would cost half with this feat. Paladins crafting scrolls of Lesser Restoration for 12.5gp may be a little too good. There is possibly some other issues to early spell access for stunted casters as well. Crafting a 3rd - 4th level scrolls would have an additional cost of 1PP. 5th - 6th level scrolls would have an additional cost of 2PP.

    Brew Potion: Only 1st level potions can be crafted at half price, with 2nd & 3rd level potions having an additional cost of 1PP.

    Craft Wand: 1st level wands at half price & 1PP. 2nd level wands would have an additional cost of 5PP (6PP for stunted casters). 3rd level wands would have an additional cost of 12PP (14PP for sorcerers, 16PP for other stunted casters).

    Prestige in this instance works to restrict the amount a character can craft, in the same way that time would in a more traditional campaign (this method is also used for retraining from Ultimate Campaign). In most cases, it's not as simple as double WBL, but I'll run some numbers on this later and get back with some more solid numbers before making an argument one way or the other.

    Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

    1 person marked this as a favorite.

    What is the end goal of this policy, though?

    After retiring 6 characters, and creating 22 others, I've never felt the need to complain that I didn't have enough gear.

    I think the WBL in PFS is already generous. Instigating "out-of-tier" rewards was a nice control measure.

    Silver Crusade 4/5

    Nefreet wrote:

    What is the end goal of this policy, though?

    After retiring 6 characters, and creating 22 others, I've never felt the need to complain that I didn't have enough gear.

    I think the WBL in PFS is already generous. Instigating "out-of-tier" rewards was a nice control measure.

  • No end goal I can think of. Merely something I thought was interesting enough to bring to the forums, and to hopefully try and create some healthy debate on the subject.
  • Sure, but deep down, you wanted more gear ;)
  • I never played in the days where playing up gave high gold rewards, but I agree that the out-of-tier rewards seems to be working well enough so far.

  • 4/5 *

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    I know I'm repeating myself, but it bears repeating: PFS is not about being a factory worker. Allowing item crafting lets people... what? (Besides save money, I mean.)

    Crafting is an individual activity, and this is a shared campaign. Activities that occur off-camera or only benefit you while disadvantaging your colleagues is a bad fit.

    4/5

    GM Lamplighter wrote:

    Crafting is an individual activity, and this is a shared campaign. Activities that occur off-camera or only benefit you while disadvantaging your colleagues is a bad fit.

    Couldn't you say the same thing about just buying equipment in general? Or Day Jobs for that matter. And probably a large number of other things.

    4/5 *

    Yes, but those are pretty much necessities. Introducing subsystems of complexity for everyone, just so a subset of players can do all of that in much greater detail and at a discount, doesn't make sense.

    4/5 *

    And for the record, I hate day job rolls. Full-time Pathfinder, all the way!

    RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

    Jack Amy wrote:
    It is also worth mentioning that the crafter must be at least CL 9 to craft this weapon, so this example is only relevant for 3 levels of non-seeker play. An abuse that is relevant for the majority of a characters PFS career might showcase this a little better.

    This is an error.

    The Crafter creates a +3 sword by first making a +1 Sword, then making it +2 and finally +3.

    So at level 9 he is 9k ahead of the schmuck who had to pay full price.

    Or, to look at it another way, he's got a sword +3 and the non-crafter has a sword +2.

    Then we do the same with Armor and Shield, so the non-crafter has +2 armor and shield, while the Crafter has +3. Or maybe he makes a mithral BP +2 at the same time as the non-crafter buys a straight mithral BP.

    It comes down to either the crafter has more money to play with for buying miscellaneous gear and is better equipped, or buys the same gear, but better versions of it, well before the non-crafter can, meaning he's always 'stronger', all else being equal.

    IN other words, there is literally no better way to gain improvements on your character faster then to have the magic item crafting feats and double your WBL. Better attack, better defenses, more options...it's all there when you double your money.

    If you want equality between classes, you have to remove those feats, and put everyone on the same 'gold-buying' standard.

    ==Aelryinth

    Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

    Honestly seems like a nightmare to balance, and not unlike alchemists, I can see a situation where one player regularly crafts consumeables (scrolls, potions etc. ) and hand them out to the group for the duration of the scenario.

    Scribe scroll and craft wand would be so amazing...

    *

    Personally I like crafting magic items but I think they would play havoc on OP. First, considering how much someone can already min/max using feats and abilities from over a dozen sources, someone somewhere will abuse (albeit legally) the system. This is a complication for GMs who have all these strange combos pressed on them in the middle of a game or right before the game, but the point is no time to parse the nuances so there is pressure to take the player's word for all of it.

    Second, considering how many eidolons have not been legally built and not discovered until a third or fourth level GM, shows you how complicated rules can break even non-optimized characters.

    Third, having the right spell at the right time can really goink many encounters. Most pathfinders know to keep a fly potion handy, but crafting would allow every pathfinder to keep almost every corner case contingent spell available.

    Fourth, consider the Unchained barbarian was made to simplify a rule for the masses, I think complicated rules is a big issue for OrgPlay.

    So I would list the issues of OP crafting as Issue 1: complicated rules, then Issue 2: Extra Paperwork, Issue 3: Wealth by Level, Issue 4: Custom magic items, Issue 5: prestige farming. I'm not sure what PP farming is or how it is an issue, but if others see it as a problem I defer to their judgement.

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    jtaylor73003 wrote:

    I think the item creation feats need to be looked at on a case by case baseis. Scribe Scroll was used to make the wizard more combat effective at lower levels. Other classes that use Brew Potion to enhance how they work need to be consider.

    I can understand not wanting to add Magical Arms and Armor, but since non spellcasters can get it with purchase of an extra feat the argument of the WBL seems weaker.

    There's no need to look at ANY of the crafting feats. Scrolls at low level are cheap enough. At high enough levels they are more of an unbalancer than campaign aid.

    *

    For the sake of the discussion how would I simplify crafting? Limit the options. Some or all limitations come to mind, you might have better ones. Feel free to add them. :)

    • no consumables;
    • only one legal craft item feat;
    • only one crafting feat per character;
    • only craft one item per level;
    • X successful 'dayjobs' equals one craft attempt;
    • core items only;
    • no wondrous items (easily the messiest part of the item creation rules);
    • must have fame/prestige enough for item at full price;
    • craft item feat has a prerequisite of spend X PP
    • spell requirements have to be 1 level less than character's highest known level spell (effectively raising the minimum caster level to qualify for a feat);
    • only allow upgrades of items (+1 to +2, +2 to +3, etc.)

    As you can see that is adding a lot of rules to 'simplify' a complicated rule set. I see no advantage to to OrgPlay

    except...:
    I could see a chronicle or boon allowing it. For example: You may attempt a Craft (leatheworking) or Craft (forge smithing) DC 30 in place of a day job check. If successful mark one of the boxes below. When all three boxes are complete you may add Craft Arms & Armor to your list of available feats. Once per level you may craft one leather or metal (based on skill used above) armor paying the normal gold costs. You must have enough Fame to purchase the armor as normal, and pay 10PP for the time spent getting other pathfinders to cover your shift. I've never made a boon before, but between this and the minotaur I wish they would ask me too already! j/k :)

    Another option for Scribe Scroll or Brew Potion would be that it doesn't actually allow to you scribe or brew, but does allow you to purchase (at full price) your caster level scrolls/potions. Wands and their 50 charges are too easy to abuse in my opinion.

    *

    BigNorseWolf wrote:
    The problem is that a caster can take craft wondrous item and double their wealth by level.

    Not quite double. Weapons should be 20-25%, armor 15-20%, and consumables 10% of total wealth. I'll grant that wondrous items do make the lion's share even on an arcane caster who will have a magic weapon and magic armor, which most probably won't. I see a magus or cleric with Craft Arms & Armor in a similar situation.

    Grand Lodge 4/5

    Artoo wrote:
    GM Lamplighter wrote:

    Crafting is an individual activity, and this is a shared campaign. Activities that occur off-camera or only benefit you while disadvantaging your colleagues is a bad fit.

    Couldn't you say the same thing about just buying equipment in general? Or Day Jobs for that matter. And probably a large number of other things.

    Crafting, in general, breaks things.

    Either: The crafter(s) are too powerful for their level, minimizing the challenge level of the games they play, or, and this is worse, IMO, the scenarios are upped in difficulty to chasllenge the crafters, leaving the non-crafters with all sorts of negative effects, from loss of gp due to less effective equipment, which also leads to loss of PP and GP to pay for various remedies needed more often, like Raise Dead, Remove <various conditions>, etc.

    One of the problems I experienced when I played mid-level LG, around 8th or 9th level, is that it was easy for the non-crafters to get behind the gold curve, and, what should be a fairly useful build becomes ineffective due to being, effectively, undergeared. The other problem I experienced was how deadly many of the scenarios, expecially Core, became, especially if you didn't have a crafter in your party to balance the changes made to accommodate having crafters in the game.

    People here complain about Shadows and Wights in low tier games. I think I don't see as much of a problem because I experienced LG, which had things like Mummies in low tier games.

    Prestige farming: That's people who hate, currently, not getting the 2 PP per scenario, and already prefer not to play modules because they are only 4 PP. Something like this, other than requiring a spreadsheet, and several pages in the Guide to explain, would also encourage people to want to get maximum Prestige, so that they can craft more.

    To be honest, the campaign does have a bit of Magic Mart feel, and my own proposal, on certain magic items, would actually increase that feel, in part.

    I just feel that certain magic items should be added to the Always Available list, in addition to what is on there. Not so much game breakers, but the things that are so commonly purchased that someone could have already setup a production line for them.

    Common magical items:

    • Handy Haversack
    • Pearl of Power 1
    • Rod of Metamagic: Extend
    • +2 stat items, single stat only

    I am sure there are other things, I am just not thinking of them all right now.

    Note: No price discount, just available without need to meet the Fame requirements for a few, select, items.

    4/5

    Speaking from experience with previous systems.

    A local player had a crafting focused wizard. He made items he could not use, armour, weapons etc. He would craft tables with his mates and just hand out items like candy. This meant they had a LOT more than wealth by level. Sure, he burned xp and TU's for it, but it allowed him to play the same character for years and severly destroy every scenario his tables faced.

    Privately I would love to be able to do it. But that is why I am personally glad that crafting is not allowed.

    Silver Crusade 4/5

    So, thinking a little more on the subject, I'm starting to get a bigger picture of the number of problems that item creation could cause in organised play.

  • As PP isn't factored into WBL, as its use is mostly restricted to cheap items, restorative services, vanities & retraining, a restriction on crafting using the PP system would increase the options available to a crafter.
  • Craft wondrous item is worth more than a feat. For the cost of a feat and 8 PP you could craft a headband and a belt for 4,000gp, so you could assume that the feat's worth is a +2 to an ability score at a minimum.
  • It would not be reasonable to ban craft wondrous item alone, and similar problems are provoked by craft arms & armour.
  • Item creation rules are not explained clearly enough in the CRB, and the extra layer of complication on an already complicated game could create problems. More robust item creation rules would be necessary, and that is not the responsibility of campaign leadership.

    I think that is the general consensus on the feedback so far, and I'm inclined to agree. I'm pretty happy with item creation where it is at the moment.

    I could certainly see an argument for wizards & rune/cloistered clerics being able to scribe scrolls, and alchemists being able to brew potions as these are thematic with the classes & consumable items don't create the same WBL gap issues that you get with items that give you permanent bonuses or abilities.

  • 3/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

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    I think there could, theoretically, be a way to make crafting work so that it wouldn't wreck the campaign. But what is there to gain?

    The main points in favor of crafting in a regular game are that it:
    -Lets you make custom items (which would have to remain banned in PFS because there is no GM supervision to prevent abuse)
    -Makes sure you always get the items you want regardless of what loot you find (which is irrelevant in PFS, because you can buy anything you can afford, any time between scenarios)
    -Saves money (which everyone is trying to think of a way to balance so it's not an advantage after all)

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    steve coling wrote:

    Speaking from experience with previous systems.

    A local player had a crafting focused wizard. He made items he could not use, armour, weapons etc. He would craft tables with his mates and just hand out items like candy. This meant they had a LOT more than wealth by level. Sure, he burned xp and TU's for it, but it allowed him to play the same character for years and severly destroy every scenario his tables faced.

    Privately I would love to be able to do it. But that is why I am personally glad that crafting is not allowed.

    Living Greyhawk closed that loophole when they started requiring players to track Lifetime XP, and forced retirement on that basis.


    I think they should have crafting feats grant a discount on associated items. It must be a pfs legal item, you must have the fame for the full price item, you need to meet the level requirement under the feat and item description, and you craft it for 10-20% off market price. Play test to see that persentage balances between those who want to adventure on their own abilities, and those who want to rely on their magical creations. When the other players are buying items, just tell the GM you spent your free time creating a ring of protection, log it on your tracking sheet as 1,800gp with cr next to it.

    The Exchange 5/5 5/55/5 ***

    That would kind of remove some of the incentive to join The Exchange, though.

    1/5

    I really cannot see the benefit. Beyond of course gaming the fame and gold limits to further unbalance the campaign which strikes me as a very bad thing.

    In home play I have allowed crafting and it was problematic. Scrolls and potions were not an issue, and I doubt they'd be too much of an issue in PFS either tbh we already have alchemical crafting without much of an issue, but wands, arms, wondrous items etc. tilted the balance of power to the caster classes who could craft powerful items for their own use. Plus it was a fair nuisance to keep track of between sessions.

    I think that last point is the break point for PFS, no matter how great a system might get designed it would inevitably mean more work for the GM's who should not be required to do more paperwork.

    1/5

    LazarX wrote:
    jtaylor73003 wrote:

    I think the item creation feats need to be looked at on a case by case baseis. Scribe Scroll was used to make the wizard more combat effective at lower levels. Other classes that use Brew Potion to enhance how they work need to be consider.

    I can understand not wanting to add Magical Arms and Armor, but since non spellcasters can get it with purchase of an extra feat the argument of the WBL seems weaker.

    There's no need to look at ANY of the crafting feats. Scrolls at low level are cheap enough. At high enough levels they are more of an unbalancer than campaign aid.

    I apologize but scribe scroll is part of the Wizard class meaning the CR of a creature has only been consider that a Wizard could have a scroll that stops it in its tracks.

    Brew Potion is part of the Alchemist Class. One of the design features of the Class is to boost this effect, even the Class having Brew Potion violates the rules of Brew potion. Alchemists don't have spellcaster levels.

    Yes these are case by case, and should be consider especially since a class like the Alchemist was specifically built with Brew Potion being a key feature.

    1/5

    Wizards get spell focus in place of scribe scroll and alchemists get extra bombs in place of brew potions. Having a wizards primary school be harder to save against is no small thing and an alchemist starting with two extra bombs more than makes up for not being able to make potions.

    Grand Lodge 4/5

    Also, to add to Jessex's post, the CR system is broken, it is not very accurate.

    Just consider adding the "Young" simple template to anything that is already Dex-based. Does it really lower the CR of that creature?

    I can just see the following:

    Dark Stalker (CR 4)
    Unchained Rogue 3 (+2 CR)
    Young (-1 CR)

    Is that really a CR 5 opponent?

    1/5

    My point is that not have Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion in PFS is not normal to Pathfinder the system. All arguments against them based on the fact that players will to powerful are bad arguments. You are basically arguing against the Authors of the system, not my opinion.

    How you personally feel about the CR system is irrelevant. I hate the CR system to, and think that woefully miscalculated. Since I doubt we will see the CR system ever properly balanced we have to work with what we have. Right now it stands the CR system was built with the Wizard have Scribe Scroll. PFS is ignoring that fact by removing it completely, while some think that Spell Focus makes up for it, there are others who see it the other way.

    Extra bombs doesn't make up for Brew Potion when comes to the Alchemist. If PFS was trying to make up for Brew Potion fairly and with the understanding of what it does for the class, then they would of replace it with Infusion Discovery.

    Finally PFS made decision to remove all item creation feats, for what reason I don't know. I stating that PFS should reconsider for certain classes because it goes against the core rules.

    5/5 5/55/55/5

    jtaylor73003 wrote:
    Finally PFS made decision to remove all item creation feats, for what reason I don't know.

    What stops item creation from getting out of hand in a regular campaign is usually the DM limiting downtime. In a shared campaign there's either no limit to downtime, or you need to track it in a campaign that already has more than enough paperwork.

    Quote:
    I stating that PFS should reconsider for certain classes because it goes against the core rules.

    There's nothing wrong with going against the core rules. The CR system is a guideline, not an absolute mathematical equation that goes all wonky at the slightest deviation.

    1/5

    BigNorseWolf wrote:
    jtaylor73003 wrote:
    Finally PFS made decision to remove all item creation feats, for what reason I don't know.

    What stops item creation from getting out of hand in a regular campaign is usually the DM limiting downtime. In a shared campaign there's either no limit to downtime, or you need to track it in a campaign that already has more than enough paperwork.

    Quote:
    I stating that PFS should reconsider for certain classes because it goes against the core rules.

    There's nothing wrong with going against the core rules. The CR system is a guideline, not an absolute mathematical equation that goes all wonky at the slightest deviation.

    Still to claim that Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion would break the CR system is still a bad argument. You are right that in a home game downtime is controlled by the GM to a point. The most deciding factor with any item creation, even crafting as a whole, is Gold. A scroll to a wizard is like a sword to a Fighter. A fighter has to decide when to buy that new +1 weapon based on how much gold he gets per outing. A wizard has to decide whether to make that higher level scroll or get some other useful item.

    The point stands Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion should be consider by PFS to be added back in because there are classes focus on using them to be compitive in combat.

    Scarab Sages

    My suggestion would be for them to let item creation feats work kind of like Gunsmithing - instead of working normally, all the feat does is grant a substantial discount (20% sound good?) when purchasing such items (for purposes of balance, we'll say that the Fame requirement for purchasing a given item is still pegged to the full price).

    5/5 5/55/55/5

    I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
    My suggestion would be for them to let item creation feats work kind of like Gunsmithing - instead of working normally, all the feat does is grant a substantial discount (20% sound good?) when purchasing such items (for purposes of balance, we'll say that the Fame requirement for purchasing a given item is still pegged to the full price).

    Fame is neigh irrelevant for scroll purchases. (The no scrolls over X level until you are Y level thing is very relevant though)

    5/5 5/55/55/5

    jtaylor73003 wrote:


    Still to claim that Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion would break the CR system is still a bad argument.

    You are the only one I see talking about the CR system.

    Quote:
    You are right that in a home game downtime is controlled by the GM to a point. The most deciding factor with any item creation, even crafting as a whole, is Gold.

    The more you put into crafting the more gold you effectively get out. Its not really a limiting factor.

    Quote:
    A scroll to a wizard is like a sword to a Fighter. A fighter has to decide when to buy that new +1 weapon based on how much gold he gets per outing. A wizard has to decide whether to make that higher level scroll or get some other useful item.

    Its more like an extra cheap potion: You carry a swiss army knife of them to break out of the appropriate occasion. Fighters buy 1, maybe 2 magic weapons. Wizards walk around with small libraries.

    Quote:
    The point stands Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion should be consider by PFS to be added back in because there are classes focus on using them to be compitive in combat.

    The wizard and the alchemist do more than fine in pfs without it. You're trying to fix a problem that simply doesn't exist. The classes are not so balanced against each other that altering them slightly from core will mess things up enough to try to implement crafting.

    4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Regional Venture-Coordinator, Central Europe

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    I still don't understand what the campaign would gain from adding even limited item creation feats.

    Buying/crafting stuff cheaper?
    That would break the wealth by level, something campaign management has worked very hard to prevent; unless they reverse their stance here I don't see that happen.

    Getting Scrolls and Potions with higher than normal caster level?
    Again the campaign managment has intentionally limited that to some rare items on chronicle sheets. if they want people to have a lot of that, they could just remove the limitation on buying stuff.

    And really, wizards and alchemists are not the weak classes that desperately need a buff so they can be competitive in combat.

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