Sword Saint Build Help


Advice


Hi.

So I've been looking at the Sword-Saint samurai archetype for some time. but have had a hard time putting together a solid build around it as generally the feature in itself seems pretty underwhelming and i see myself trying to multi class whenever looking at it and i'm not sure how badly this would weaken the archetype by doing so as well.

So right now the basic concept build is
2 lvl Monk(Master of many styles)Crane Style + 2 free Crane Riposte/Crane Wing
1 lvl Swashbuckler (Swashbuckler Finesee + Weapon Focus(Katana))
X lvls Sword-Saint Samurai (Eventually getting slashing grace for full dex to dmg katana).

(based on starting level i'd probably move levels to at least make sure i have slashing grace +swashbuckler finesse under my belt first)

So basic concept here. Lots of fighting defensively, all Dex/Wis for maximum AC capabilities while Dex handles both Attack/Damage for the katana.

The issue here is Sword-saint feels like a bit of a tack-on ability. Once per challenge i can full or standard action do 1 attack with +1d6 or maximum with this build 9d6 extra damage which is a bit, but i have an issue justifying it due to sneak attack able to work on all hits and vital strike hitting harder up front with no restriction on number of times used.

So i'm wondering if there's any way to improve upon iajutsu strike and its very limited nature or if i'm better putting the levels into fighter/barbarian/anything else (heck with the wisdom focus even inquisitor is tempting).

Side note: I did see some ideas for builds around using it for flavor reasons like a black blade magus or samurai or anything that doesn't draw his sword until he finds a worthy foe. The general issue is you're stuck using the scabbard or something else in the meantime weakening yourself.

Overall I like the flavor/idea behind iajutsu strike but for a once per challenge ability it feels massively under powered (at least if it could be used more than once it would rival sneak attack with just the annoyance of sheathing the blade), and overall each time i look into it I get the sense that I should maybe get a different class feature (heck now with unchained barbarian even a dex build could benefit).


Also almost everything is allowed. And from unchained, fractional bonuses, the unchained classes, and the feat to gain stamina for the combat tricks are allowed (which i originally planned on using the combat trick to swift action sheathe a weapon but as the skill only works once per challenge its a bit of a feat investment).


Seems like a bad idea.

If you want a Finesse Katana wielder, go full Swash.

If you want a Defensive Fighter, go Brawler or something with Martial Flexibility (because fighting defensively is a VERY situational tactic). Halfling Brawler makes a great defensive fighter.

Sword Saint WANTS high STR, two-handed katana wielding for maximum damage... Roaring Iaijitsu is a high level ability, but it IS Strength-based too... and it's really good at what it does (shut down casters by targeting their Fort saves).

Plus you are losing out on a ton of uses of resolve.

I'd rather go full Sword Saint, STR-based like Gorum intended, and pick up Chain Challenge at 7th level.


You are correct that sword saint is pretty bad, but if you just want a guy who whacks stuff it is fine.

Here would be a level 10 build, I think I skip monk:

Spoiler:

Bobbity Bo
Human samurai (sword saint) 9/swashbuckler 1 (Pathfinder Player Companion: Dragon Empires Primer, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 56, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat 18)
NG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +5; Senses Perception +14
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 27, touch 15, flat-footed 24 (+9 armor, +2 deflection, +3 Dex, +1 natural, +2 shield)
hp 103 (10d10+39)
Fort +11, Ref +12, Will +9
Defensive Abilities greater resolve 5/day
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft. (20 ft. in armor)
Melee +2 keen katana +15/+10 (1d8+13/15-20) or
mwk wakizashi +13/+8 (1d6+7/18-20)
Ranged +1 adaptive composite longbow +16/+11 (1d8+2/×3)
Special Attacks brutal slash, challenge 3/day (+9 damage, allies gain +3 to hit), deeds (derring-do, opportune parry and riposte), iajutsu strike, mounted archer, panache (3), terrifying iajutsu, weapon expertise (katana)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 13, Dex 20, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 16
Base Atk +10; CMB +8; CMD 28
Feats Cornugon Smash, Furious Focus[APG], Iron Will, Lunge, Power Attack, Slashing Grace[ACG], Weapon Focus (katana)
Traits indomitable faith
Skills Acrobatics +15 (+11 to jump), Climb +2, Diplomacy +7, Intimidate +16, Knowledge (local) +8, Knowledge (nobility) +4, Perception +14, Sense Motive +14, Survival +5 (+9 to provide food and water for allies or to protect allies from harsh weather), Swim +2; Racial Modifiers dragon's skills
Languages Common
SQ aid allies, mount, order of the dragon, strategy, swashbuckler finesse
Other Gear mithral full plate, +1 buckler, +1 adaptive composite longbow, +2 keen katana, mwk wakizashi, amulet of natural armor +1, belt of physical might +2 (Dex, Con), cloak of resistance +2, headband of alluring charisma +2, ring of protection +2, 150 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Aid Allies +4 (Ex) Aid Another grants +4
Brutal Slash +4 (Ex) Gain a bonus to confirm Iajutsu Strike criticals.
Cornugon Smash When you damage an opponent with a Power Attack, you may make an immediate Intimidate check as a free action to attempt to demoralize your opponent.
Dragon's Challenge +9 (3/day) (Ex) +9 to damage target, -2 AC vs. others when used, allies gain +3 to hit the target of your challenge.
Dragon's Skills +4 (Ex) +4 to Survival checks for allies.
Greater Resolve (5/day) (Ex) Your resolve can remove effects, reroll saves, or ignore crits.
Iajutsu Strike +5d6/-4 AC (Full-round) (Ex) Draw sword as strike challenged foe for extra dam, but take AC penalty for 1 rd. You can use this once per foe, each day.
Lunge Can increase reach by 5 ft, but take -2 to AC for 1 rd.
Mounted Archer (Ex) At 4th level, the samurai becomes skilled at firing ranged weapons while mounted. A samurai only takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls with ranged weapons while his mount takes a double move. This penalty increases to –4 while his mount is running.
Panache (Ex) Gain a pool of points that are spent to fuel deeds, regained on light/piercing crit/killing blow.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Slashing Grace (Katana) Treat chosen weapon as 1-handed piercing weapon and can had Dex instead of Str to dmg.
Strategy (Ex) Grant varying bonuses to allies within 30'
Swashbuckler Finesse At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and she can use her Charisma score in place of Intelligence as a prerequisite for combat feats. This ability counts as having
Terrifying Iajutsu (DC 17) (Ex) When hit foe with Iajutsu Strike, all foes in 30 ft shaken 1d4+1 rds (Will neg).
Weapon Expertise (Katana) (Ex) You can quick draw the chosen weapon, and gain +2 to confirm critical hits.


Use the wakazashi to open the fight, and to use opportune parry. When they get close, ITS IAJUTSU TIME


Secret Wizard wrote:

Seems like a bad idea.

If you want a Finesse Katana wielder, go full Swash.

If you want a Defensive Fighter, go Brawler or something with Martial Flexibility (because fighting defensively is a VERY situational tactic). Halfling Brawler makes a great defensive fighter.

Sword Saint WANTS high STR, two-handed katana wielding for maximum damage... Roaring Iaijitsu is a high level ability, but it IS Strength-based too... and it's really good at what it does (shut down casters by targeting their Fort saves).

Plus you are losing out on a ton of uses of resolve.

I'd rather go full Sword Saint, STR-based like Gorum intended, and pick up Chain Challenge at 7th level.

Did not know about chain challenge but that at least fixes alot of problems i had with this.

Is fighting defensively really situational?
Default its -4 ATK for +2 dodge which is meh, 3 ranks in acrobatics boosts that to -4/+3 which is a little more fair.

But the crane style makes it nice.
Crane style with the above makes it -2/+4 which completely flipped it around bonus/penalty-wise
Crane riposte makes it -1/+4 (and crane wing makes it so you can add an extra +2 against a specific foe).
Minus the other bonuses i think a -1 for +4 AC seems a little better than situational then. That and if done right you can basically have it by level 2 because once you have crane style master of many styles removes any other restrictions necessary to pick up the other 2 in the chain basically allowing you to have a full style almost instantly.

CWheezy wrote:

You are correct that sword saint is pretty bad, but if you just want a guy who whacks stuff it is fine.

Here would be a level 10 build, I think I skip monk:
** spoiler omitted **...

Yeah i'll admit the monk was only there to be armorless, but probably might go ahead and drop that to do something similar to that.


I wish there were private messages in this board...

Anyway, the issue with Crane Style is you are taking several feats to take an attack penalty and some bonus to AC, when you could spend the same amount of feats for similar other bonuses to AC without hurting your attack.

Also, I don't know about you but AC is the least of my concerns.


There are private messages


Secret Wizard wrote:

I wish there were private messages in this board...

Anyway, the issue with Crane Style is you are taking several feats to take an attack penalty and some bonus to AC, when you could spend the same amount of feats for similar other bonuses to AC without hurting your attack.

Also, I don't know about you but AC is the least of my concerns.

I can see the argument in that case.

I usually tend to gravitate towards the style feat (which to be fair 2 are free with the master of many styles archetype) primarily because its usable by anyone as long as you keep a hand free and usually my concern isn't as much regular AC but touch AC which is partually why monk is involved because Wisdom to Touch AC + bunch of dodge bonuses to it as well. With evasion at level 2 I feel pretty survivable (especially if i was to chose to take twist away also to reflex save a fort save).

But likely this preference is more due to getting demolished by whatever defense is lower (which if i'm an armored character is usually touch).


Saw a pretty good idea a while back for this archetype where you start out holding a naginata. You get an AoO out of your reach, then you drop the naginata, challenge, and Iaijutsu with the katana.


ok,

So I've been looking over the build and the more i look at it the more i'm really slowly turning on Iajutsu strike. The damage is nice once but even with chain challenge i feel like its a bit underwhelming as i feel now to do what i was originally trying to do its going to be a bit feat intensive.

So i've been looking at Daring Champion of the cavalier archetype.

It kinda kills 2 birds with 1 stone on the swashbuckler +samurai thing minus iajutsu strike. But i feel like vital strike could be a reasonable replacement.

Because original build kinda looked like. Both assume i don't take human for this because I kinda don't want to play human but it looks like i may have to.

Also some of the weird choices here are a bit from we're starting at level 3 and so i'm trying to squeeze as much of the base concept as possible in that area.

Original:

Fighter 1: Dodge/Weapon Focus(Katana)
Swashbuckler 1: (Finesse)
Samurai 1: Slashing Grace:
------- After 3
Samurai 2
Monk (Master of many styles) 1: Crane Style /Crane Wing
Monk (master of many styles) 2: Crane Riposte
Samurai 3: Power Attack
Samurai 4:
Samurai 5: Chain Challenge
Samurai 6: Furious Focus

So i know crane style and dodge throw this off to get the 2 free style feats.

If i remove the monk bits it gets a bit better but its still weird not getting power attack until much later because of needing weapon focus + slashing grace. Taking away dodge would allow me to remove monk and power up samurai slightly faster.

Doing that would look more like

Swashbuckler 1: Weapon Focus
Samurai 1
Samurai 2: Slashing Grace
--- Past 3
Samurai 3:
Samurai 4: Power Attack
Samurai 5:
Samurai 6: Chain Challenge/ Furious Focus
Samurai 7:
Samurai 8: Cornugon Smash
Samurai 9:

So I gained an extra feat and was able to remove fighter.

My Issue is to make iajutsu more nasty is to use the unchained stamina feat (replace the lvl 9 feat with that) and get quick draw at 11 so i can swift action put away the sword with the stamina combat trick. Otherwise i have to burn a move action to sheath it and then move up then wait a turn for standard action (by this point) strike.

New:

Fighter 1: Weapon Focus/ Dodge
Cavalier(Daring Challenger) 1:
Cavalier(Daring Challenger) 2: Slashing Grace
Cavalier(Daring Challenger) 3:
Monk (Master of many styles) 1: Crane Style /Crane Wing
Monk (master of many styles) 2: Crane Riposte
Cavalier(Daring Challenger) 4: Power Attack
Cavalier(Daring Challenger) 5:
Cavalier(Daring Challenger) 6: Vital Strike/Furious Focus
Cavalier(Daring Challenger) 7:

Or removing monk

Fighter 1: Weapon Focus/Power Attack
Cavalier(Daring Challenger) 2:
Fighter 2: Slashing Grace/Furious Focus
ect...

So i guess between both of these is should balance defense/damage or focus damage? The crane style/ monk bits were to more cover touch attack as well as leave the character more flexible without armor.

But dropping monk i feel like I still need to dip in some fighter levels just to play a bit of catchup on feats so i'm not getting power attack at level 5.

Starting at level 3 i'm trying to avoid full plate hence the elevated dex score as we won't have alot of wealth to throw comfort at something big.

Hence why i'm focusing this more Dex/Wis/Cha or Dex/Cha (in both cases not putting a huge amount in charisma and prettymuch attempting to max Dex).

With the Daring Challenger it dips more heavily into swashbuckler bits basically allowing for some interesting double-dip on the bonuses. Challenge adding Cavalier level and Precise Strike Adding class level as well basically giving me at lvl 4th level +8 extra damage against my challenge pre-power attack.

Though going with that to keep the general feel of it would kinda be better spent on Vital Strike chain for the whole 1 big hit (abusing the heck out of furious focus).


Vital strike is pretty bad, especially since you will be using a low damage die weapon.


CWheezy wrote:
Vital strike is pretty bad, especially since you will be using a low damage die weapon.

True.

I feel like i could save myself a feat with using the Unchained rogue using a wakizashi or rapier or other finessable weapon because i would get finesse+dex to damage, the downside is i won't be able to use a katana which would be a die size loss. Or maybe with the samurai route dumping 3-4 levels into swashbuckler.

I dunno, i guess i'll have to play with this a bit more. I feel like by lvl 10/11 i'll have all the basic feats i need but It feels also like i'm waiting a really long time to get certain feats and I don't want to further weaken samurai with more multiclasss into fighter to speed that up.


Daring champion is good imo,but you do need to get katana proficiency, from being a tengu or a human bonus feat

Here is round 2:

Spoiler:

Bippity Boppity round 2
Human cavalier (daring champion) 8/monk (master of many styles, monk of the sacred mountain) 2 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 90, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 32, 114, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat 59)
LN Medium humanoid (human)
Init +12; Senses Perception +13
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 29, touch 18, flat-footed 23 (+7 armor, +2 deflection, +5 Dex, +1 dodge, +3 natural, +1 shield)
hp 110 (10 HD; 2d8+8d10+48)
Fort +15, Ref +14, Will +10
Defensive Abilities nimble +1
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 keen katana +18/+13 (1d8+8/15-20+8 Precision) or
unarmed strike +10/+5 (1d6+1)
Special Attacks banner +2, challenge 3/day (+8 damage, allies gain +3 to hit), opportune parry and riposte, panache (4), precise strike, stunning fist (4/day, DC 15), tactician 2/day (Shake It Off, 7 rds)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 13, Dex 22, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 14
Base Atk +9; CMB +10; CMD 29
Feats Crane Style[UC], Exotic Weapon Proficiency (katana), Extra Panache[ACG], Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Power Attack, Shake It Off[UC], Slashing Grace[ACG], Snapping Turtle Style[UC], Stunning Fist, Toughness, Weapon Focus (katana)
Skills Acrobatics +18, Climb +4, Diplomacy +15, Knowledge (religion) +10, Perception +13, Ride +9, Sense Motive +13, Survival +0 (+4 to provide food and water for allies or to protect allies from harsh weather), Swim +4; Racial Modifiers dragon's skills
Languages Common
SQ aid allies, champion's finesse, dodging panache, fuse style, order of the dragon, strategy, swashbuckler initiative
Other Gear +1 mithral breastplate, +2 keen katana, amulet of natural armor +2, belt of physical might +2 (Dex, Con), cloak of resistance +3, headband of alluring charisma +2, ring of protection +2, 150 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Aid Allies +4 (Ex) Aid Another grants +4
Banner +2/+1 (Ex) Allies who can see your banner gain +2 save vs. fear & +1 to hit while charging.
Champion's Finesse At 1st level, a daring champion gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and he can use Charisma in place of Intelligence for the purpose of combat feats prerequisites. A daring champion also coun
Crane Style Penalty when fighting defensively reduced to -2 and dodge bonus increases by 1.
Deed: Dodging Panache +2 (Ex) As an imm action when attacked, use 1 panache to move 5 ft. and gain +2 to AC vs. attack.
Deed: Opportune Parry and Riposte (Ex) 1 panache and 1 AoO to attempt to parry a melee attack, then counterattack.
Deed: Precise Strike +8 (Ex) While 1 panache, bonus to att/dam with light/one-hand piercing weapon.
Deed: Swashbuckler Initiative (Ex) While have Panache, can use a free hand to draw a light or one-handed piercing weapon as part of the initiative check.
Dragon's Challenge +8 (3/day) (Ex) +8 to damage target, -2 AC vs. others when used, allies gain +3 to hit the target of your challenge.
Dragon's Skills +4 (Ex) +4 to Survival checks for allies.
Fuse Style (2 styles) (Ex) At 1st level, a master of many styles can fuse two of the styles he knows into a more perfect style. The master of many styles can have two style feat stances active at once. Starting a stance provided by a style feat is still a swift action, but whe
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Panache (Ex) Gain a pool of points that are spent to fuel deeds, regained on light/piercing crit/killing blow.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Shake It Off Gain +1 to all saving throws per adjacent ally
Slashing Grace (Katana) Treat chosen weapon as 1-handed piercing weapon and can had Dex instead of Str to dmg.
Snapping Turtle Style +1 Gain +1 shield bonus to AC when at least one hand is free
Strategy (Ex) Grant varying bonuses to allies within 30'
Stunning Fist (4/day, DC 15) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Tactician (Shake It Off, 7 rds, 2/day) (Ex) Grant the use of your teamwork feats to all allies in 30 ft.

This is with crane and snapping turtle style active. If you decided to fight defensively, your attack goes down by 2 and your ac hits 33. That ac is pretty respectable I think. You could potentially drop power attack and lower your strength to ten, giving you slightly more dex, wisdom, or charisma.

Silver Crusade

What is your over all vision for the character? Broad strokes help.

I was working on a sword saint samurai build. However I just made a samurai with out the sword saint after really looking it over. The ability's don't go very well with how the game plays. So I just dis a samurai with a few level dips in other classes. It really just depends on what your looking for.

Samurai
Monk 1
Unchained Rogue 3 (rogue finesses training wakizashi)


Secret Wizard wrote:

I wish there were private messages in this board...

Anyway, the issue with Crane Style is you are taking several feats to take an attack penalty and some bonus to AC, when you could spend the same amount of feats for similar other bonuses to AC without hurting your attack.

Also, I don't know about you but AC is the least of my concerns.

-1 to hit is a small negative compared to the bonus you can get with the style. Normally you get +1 AC per feat (dodge, shield focus), or +2 with some rare instances (tieflings with armor of the pit). With Crane Wing, you get +5 (4 from defensive combat, 1 for dodge, which is a prereq) for 2 feats, and +7 vs 1 target (ussually more than enough) for 3 feats (dodge, crane wing, crane style), although that came with a -2 to hit. However, the last feat, Crane riposte, actually increase your damage output: you get -1 to attack instead of -2, and you get one extra attack when your enemy miss you (and he'll miss you), so I wouldn't count it as a defensive feat. A halfling could add another +2 with cautious fighter would mean +7 AC, +9 vs 1 target, for 4 defensive feats (dodge, crane style, crane wing, cautious fighter).

Also, AC is not important, unless you have a lot, then it's really important. It's easy to build characters that can only be hit with 20s for monsters of CR = character's level, and then AC is really good.

The problem with crane style is not the -1 to hit, is that you need to keep 1 hand free, so you cant TWF or 2H. That's why it really works only for classes that already fight with one hand free, like wildshaping druids (flurrying Kungfu T-rexes, tetori Judo Anacondas, and their friends), scimitar magus, flurrying monks, and swashbucklers, as their classes have to fight with one hand free anyway and they have class features that make their one-hand (or one claw) damage on par with TWF and 2H.

To the OP, i'll use cornugon smash (or enforcer+blade of mercy), shatter defenses, and deadly stroke, with either a braced nodachi, or a braced naginata (specially at lvl 15 ronin and auto 20 in one roll), and try to make a char that can kill in one hit. Maybe with 1 lvl of bloodrager to get the feat that ends a rage and makes max damage


CWheezy wrote:

Daring champion is good imo,but you do need to get katana proficiency, from being a tengu or a human bonus feat

Here is round 2:

** spoiler omitted **...

Wow, didn't even think monk of the sacred mountain, that seems really neat.

Though i may swap around feats a bit just because if you already have crane style the two bonus feats are restriction free so i can just pick up wing and riposte immediately.

But i like the addition of snapping turtle style (was looking for something that properly complemented it that allowed me to use non-unarmed attacks without getting a blade of the sword-saint). My other option was going to be Snake style to abuse the whole "you didn't hit me so i punch you" but i would need to get a blade of the sword saint for the offhand to pull that off (maybe late game drop some more levels into monk and do that but this has better short term rewards).

Though this helped me make up my mind on order (was debating between dragon and ronin, but dragon offers more and ronin just gives me an auto crit per day at 15 rather than making the whole party rush a target).

Also the equipment trait "heirloom weapon" lets me chose "proficiency with that specific weapon"

Thanks for the help with this one. I know I've gotten a bit of tunnel vision on a few build ideas here but I DM more than play alot of times so i've been trying to optimize around a concept rather than cut things away for overall amazingness.

Also are you using some sort of program to help build that? I ask as otherwise congrats on the dedication to type that out.

calagnar wrote:

What is your over all vision for the character? Broad strokes help.

I was working on a sword saint samurai build. However I just made a samurai with out the sword saint after really looking it over. The ability's don't go very well with how the game plays. So I just dis a samurai with a few level dips in other classes. It really just depends on what your looking for.

Samurai
Monk 1
Unchained Rogue 3 (rogue finesses training wakizashi)

Yeah I probably should use Wakizashi if i want to smash monk and samurai together.

As for concept i guess biggest thing I've had in mind is a guy with a katana who doesn't need armor. I also liked the idea of finesse from either uncained rogue for 2 reasons.
Dex + Wis = high AC without any armor from monk
I can basically use alot of weapons some with more effectiveness than others. For more roleplay reasons i had planned to also equip the character with daggers (spring loaded wrist sheaths) and a blade boot just for some extra weapons kinda always on hand to be dropped for katana mode when a challenge occurs.

So mostly for this build dips into monk (master of many styles just because i want to throw away flurry of blows to not have a dead weight skill as i won't be using monk weapons or unarmed strikes.

I didn't want to do magic so i avoided Kensei magus (that and i find low-level kensei is amazingly annoying due to the level limit on the AC boost) So that about covered the non-armored options.

Then I guess I kinda got stuck on the base concept of the Sword-Saint of not using your weapon until you challenge the enemy (aka somone worthwhile). So i kinda progressed it from there.

Without the monk levels i'd be better off doing 100% cavalier or 100% swashbuckler, or even 100% unchained rogue depending on the build and just doing Two weapon fighting, otherwise kinda pointless to keep the offhand free.

I had a few ideas floating around about the sword-cane or using a scabbard in the offhand but my main problems is that the sword-cane is a rapier with terrible crit range, and scabbards aren't finssable (the best idea i can think of with the scabbard is getting twf+two weapon defense and just grabbing the defending enchantment for it).


Yeah I own hero lab which makes characters so easy wow.

Heirloom weapon is simple or martial weapons only, unless you have a version that doesn't say that(I think it was change with errata, not sure).

Also as a note with snake style, it has to be an unarmed strike you attack them with, and your unarmed strikes with my build will be awful.


ranmyaku262 wrote:
kinda pointless to keep the off hand free

Or you could use the katana as ir is intended to and take it two handed :P


CWheezy wrote:

Yeah I own hero lab which makes characters so easy wow.

Heirloom weapon is simple or martial weapons only, unless you have a version that doesn't say that(I think it was change with errata, not sure).

Also as a note with snake style, it has to be an unarmed strike you attack them with, and your unarmed strikes with my build will be awful.

ok, so i didn't notice that because the source i was using has this section in itallics

"You carry a non-masterwork simple or martial weapon that has been passed down from generation to generation in your family."

So mildly didn't read that part, instead I was looking at the "Benefits" section which just says "proficiency with weapon" ect... Though there could've been errata at one point also and i've just been using it wrong.

Now looking on various threads it also looks like it only gives you proficiency with THAT weapon only so getting a masterwork version later completely loses that proficiency. But yeah.... going human, tengu, or I might use a temple sword just because i believe monk would give me access to that. Especially since i'm looking at the cavalier side of things now (i guess even a 1-2 level dip in fighter may work but doubt i'd do that as daring champion gives me challenge + precise strike so the more levels i drop the more damage i potentially lose).

Also i brought up snake style because of the special item "Blade of the sword saint" it is a katana only monks are profficient with, counts as an unarmed strike as well as considering your hand "free" for purpose of feats. Though the downside of that weapon is its a "Ki focusing" weapon so its almost worthless to me unless i dump more levels into monk.

gustavo iglesias wrote:
ranmyaku262 wrote:
kinda pointless to keep the off hand free
Or you could use the katana as ir is intended to and take it two handed :P

Yes, but that would make sense :)

That and if i'm going to 2h a katana i'd rather just using a Nodatchi, 1 die bigger with the same crit statistics.


Required warning:

[admiral ackbar]The ijiatsu strike is beyond underwhelming. Its a meh amount of damage that only crops up once in a blue moon. Two weapon fighting rogues will be laughing at how infrequently it goes off. [/admiral ackbar]


ranmyaku262 wrote:
previous post..

Could've sworn there was an "edit" button, guess not.

(edit: guess there is, there's just a time limit)

Now that i think about it if i went the Temple Sword route, in theory i'd be better off potentially using uncahined monk and just doing 1 level.

Benefits is Full BAB, Flurry of blows extra attack, and i'd just use the bonus feat to probably get dodge. And still getting all the monk bonuses.

This would qualify me still for the whole crane style chain, though i'd lose to the potential longterm benefits of master of many styles (burning 3 feats on the full style chain rather than 2 feats on dodge + crane style and immediately having full crane style at level 2 of monk if done right)

I'm not quite sure what is more valuable though +1 more BAB, 1 more Full BAB attack, 1 less level commitment (so daring champion basically gains 2 extra damage potnetially in the long run from challenge + precise strike)

otherwise there's original monk with master of many styles (granting me the fighting defensively bonuses) mixed with iron mountain monk giving me toughness + crane wing + crane riposte all super early.

I guess end of the day the choice there is more attack early vs more defense early, with unchained monk potentially being stronger in the long run (though losing 1 feat overall could be something..) Though in theory 1 less dip into monk would just mean i could throw a level at fighter if i just desperately needed that extra feat.

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