Coup De Grace


Rules Questions

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Um, yeah, because it's trivially easy to come up with tons of definitions:

Hands bound together
Hands bound to a post
Legs bound together
Hands bound to feet
Neck bound to a post
Arms and legs bound tightly
Torso bound to a post
'Bound' by a dominate person spell
Hogtied
Pinned
Entangled by 'animate rope'

In all of the above (plus many, many more) the character can be considered 'bound' in pathfinder terms because there is no actual specific definition for 'bound' in pathfinder terms.

That's why the use of the word 'bound' in both texts provides no particular information that they are supposed to refer to the same condition. Furthermore, if you are lenient with what qualifies as 'bound' for the purposes of Coup De Grace, you can come up with some pretty broken combinations. Animate rope becomes a 1st level reflex save or die.

Grand Lodge

Are not all your examples, basically the same thing, in the context of each description, of each of the Conditions being discussed?

Grand Lodge

Also, can one not Coup de Grace an unconscious opponent, which the 1st Level Spells Color Spray and Sleep can do?


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Are not all your examples, basically the same thing, in the context of each description, of each of the Conditions being discussed?

They are the 'same' in that they use the word 'bound'. They are completely different in that they each have different levels of restrictions on what actions the 'bound' person could take.

If my hands are 'bound' together, I can still move, kick, run.

If my torso is 'bound' to a post, I can still punch and kick.

Neither of those cases would seem to be 'helpless' even though they are technically 'bound'.

Color spray and Sleep have HD limits, animate rope does not.


CraziFuzzy wrote:
There are only two conditions that include adding the helpless condition. Unconscious, and Paralyzed. For anything else to work with a coup de grace, it would have to specifically add the helpless condition to the creature.

Helpless

A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets his sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.

Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace.

Looks to me like helpless can be:

A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy.

But I'm just quoting the rules, I might not be right.


Ravingdork wrote:

So are bound and helpless the same thing for the purposes of one's ability to deliver a coup de grace?

Can you still be coup de grace'd if you are bound, but not helpless? What if you are helpless, but not bound?

Seems to me these are the basic questions being asked.

Bound implies helpless.

So yep.

If you wanna say that someone who is bound to a chair is able to do stuff... fine.

I mean, I guess a caster can always use stilled/silenced/eschewed spells... so they aren't helpless...

But the fighter tied to the chair is.

Lets crap on fighters more.

Cause they don't suck enough. Way OP. Damn fighters.


Matthew Downie wrote:

Bound is not listed as a standard condition, implying that normal English is being used. That means we should apply common sense. If RAI was that a pinned creature was also helpless it would presumably say so.

There are many different types of 'bound' in English. If your hands are tied together, you're not helpless. If your hands are bound to a post and your feet to another post and their stretched apart so you can't move, you're helpless.

If someone gives me a hug, I am 'held' but not helpless. If someone pins me down, I am 'bound' but not helpless.

Bound is a condition that pinned grants.

Bound creatures are subject to Coup de Grace.

It's all there in the books.


CraziFuzzy wrote:

if pinned counted as 'bound' (which is not a condition) and therefore counted as helpless, then why would pinned create a -4 AC penalty, when helpless are at dex 0?

Pinned and Helpless are very different conditions.

Absolutely.

However, being bound is an acceptable prerequisite for being Coup de Graced.

So yeah...

Helpless

A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets his sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.

Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace.

I might be wrong, but I'm just quoting the rules from the game.


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Hydromancer wrote:


PRD, Conditions, Bound wrote:
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions.
You got a link to this? I'm not finding a "bound" condition in my CRB or the PRD.

It's something that people who speak english can understand.

I guess it is up to the GM, however, to determine how much rope must be used to make someone 'bound'.

It's right there, in the book.

Bound.

They didn't just put it in for fun.


Ravingdork wrote:
Hydromancer wrote:

Pinned = bound. This is explicitly called out in the rules.

Bound = helpless. This is also explicitly called out.

Truck = Vehicle.

Vehicle = Car.

Car =/= Truck

Sorry, that form of logic doesn't really work.

Sailboat=vehicle.

Your argument also doesn't work. You are trying to frame it in a context that furthers your goal.


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Hydromancer wrote:


PRD, Conditions, Bound wrote:
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions.
You got a link to this? I'm not finding a "bound" condition in my CRB or the PRD.

Doesn't matter if you can find a 'bound' condition.

If they are bound, they are subject to Coup de Grace.

Pinned does this.

Done.

Do we wanna zoom in more an analyze the grammar a bit more closely? I can prove that Weapon Proficiency feats don't actually grant proficiency... :D


CraziFuzzy wrote:
Pahlok wrote:

Grappled: -4 Dexterity

Pinned: Denied Dexterity (not even flatfooted, just denied dexterity)
Tied Up: Helpless (Dexterity of 0)

Pretty simple.

Except that all being tied up in pathfinder does, mechanically, is maintain the pinned condition without a grappler.

If the DC is high enough, you can never escape.

How are you not helpless?

I mean, without outside intervention, you will die of dehydration, but you are somehow not helpless?

Sure.

Grand Lodge

So, "bound" is a meaningless word, within the context of both Condition descriptions?

A bound creature is not Helpless, and a Helpless creature is not bound.

A bound creature is not Pinned, and a Pinned creature is not bound.

This is what is being put forth?


I'm so glad I game with people that are able to determine the meaning of the word 'bound'... in context.

I'm bound to win the lottery, eventually.

Dammit. You can Coup de Grace me.

No.

I'm bound to the mast.

You can slit my throat.

Yep. :(

I feel bad for everyone who actually games with people who need more than that level of ruling. That's sad.

Grand Lodge

Those examples have completely dissimilar context.

Unlike the description of the two Conditions being discussed, which have very similar context.

Grand Lodge

Let's look at it a different way...

Can a Pinned creature be Helpless?

Can a Helpless creature be Pinned?

If a creature can be both Helpless, and Pinned, are they bound in two different ways, or the same way?


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Those examples have completely dissimilar context.

Unlike the description of the two Conditions being discussed, which have very similar context.

You are 100% correct.

So am I.

It's pretty obvious that being bound=being bound.

That makes you subject to Coup de Grace. As per Coup de Grace.

So... why are people still talking about it?


It's not like this is a game-breaker.

I mean, if you have someone at this state (bound/helpless etc), there is a LOT you can do to them.

It's not like you can get someone blackout drunk in town and Coup de Grace them with your polearm without people noticing...

Of course, RP consequences on our games MEAN something...

For PFS... ask the guys who make the rules I guess?


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Those examples have completely dissimilar context.

Unlike the description of the two Conditions being discussed, which have very similar context.

The helpless description is presumably using 'bound' in the literal sense of 'tied up'. The pinned description can't possibly mean you're tied up whenever you're pinned, so I'd assume it's using bound in the more metaphorical sense, to mean you're under some form of restriction. The AC penalty when you're pinned makes it clear that it is not RAI that you are automatically helpless.

Grand Lodge

Well, I suppose grapplers should go for the "Tie Up" option whilst grappling, to make sure their pinned opponent is officially "bound".

Hmm, if one can only Tie Up a Pinned opponent, then how can one be "bound" by the Pinned Condition, before actually being tied up?

Is there no situation in which the term "bound", means the same thing, when describing both Conditions?


Trolololol

Matthew Downie-you may assume whatever you like. They use the word 'bound', interpret that as you wish. Citing the AC penalty is something I myself have done, HOWEVER!

Coup de Grace

As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace (pronounced "coo day grahs") to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.

You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.

Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.

You can't deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to "find" the creature once you've determined what square it's in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).

Pinned

A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.

Helpless

A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets his sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.

Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace.

Coup de Grace requires Helpless

Helpless talks about both 'bound' AND 'otherwise completely at an opponents mercy' (not a condition listed anywhere, btw)

Pinned makes someone 'tightly bound' (not just 'bound', but 'tightly bound' WOW!)

Frankly, it seems legit.
They key point here is the condition of 'Helpless', it explicitly allows for leeway when it talks about 'otherwise completely at an opponents mercy'.

Right there in the book.

But what do I know, I'm only quoting the game we are talking about.


If we really want to analyze this further, changing squares from where your character is, to another square, isn't moving.

It's performing the act of locomotion.

Moving can be accomplished by wiggling your little finger. Or blinking.

Just saying.


alexd1976 wrote:


Helpless

A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

The crucial phrase in this description that everyone seems to be ignoring is "otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy". The use of the word 'otherwise' indicates that the previous conditions listed have *also* rendered the target completely at the opponent's mercy.

I'll go back to what I said earlier:

Paralyzed : Cannot take any physical actions.
Held: Cannot take any physical actions.
Sleeping : Cannot take any physical actions.
Unconscious : Cannot take any physical actions.

Unless you have been tied up by a person against whom escape is impossible (they have a CMB higher than yours and use Tie Up), you are not completely at their mercy. You *have* options to take physical actions. You can attempt to escape. At the very least you can struggle *meaningfully* (I.E. a chance of success).

Presuming that the game designers intended consistency with all the other listed conditions (the use of the word 'otherwise' indicates that they did), the Bound Condition (if it is ever printed) should look something a lot like this:

Bound : Restrained in such a way that any physical action (including escape) is impossible without outside aid.

Consider : Mola Ram decides to pour a mind control potion into your mouth.

Paralyzed : You're doomed.
Held : You're doomed.
Sleeping : You're doomed (if you sleep with your mouth open a lot).
Unconscious : You're doomed.

Restrained in such a way that physical actions are still possible : You close your mouth or turn your head, spit out the potion, etc.

Restrained in such a way that physical actions are impossible : You're doomed (in Indy's case, chained to a rock, jaws pried open by an immensely strong thug, and Voodoo'ed so that he can't spit it out like he did the first time).

They look much the same, except that in the second, the character is actually *helpless*, as in they cannot help themselves without outside aid, which is pretty much the dictionary definition of the word.


Bound is not a condition. So "bound" is not a condition. If "bound" is not a condition, then it follows it is a descriptive word.

Before advancing in the argumentation, at this point, we all must agree on the fact that being bound is not a condition, and just some descriptive words.

Now: helpless is a condition. It is also a descriptive word. It can be further explained or described with the words "completely at an opponent's mercy", words which are included in the game term definition.

So: as we are debating about the meaning of a word, we can not fully agree. There will be variation. Different persons understand different concepts differently.

Personally I believe a grapple can't prone nobody into the helpless condition, and my reason for this is because "grappled" and "pinned" conditions exist. Why create a combat move with the name "grapple", and those two conditions mentioned, which are referenced in the "grapple" section, if you wanted to render someone "helpless" via a "grapple"? Would be much more simple to state: if you succeed in two consecutive "grapple" checks, you make your foe "helpless", instead they say you render your foe "pinned", and not "pinned and helpless".

For me, it makes no sense. That being said, this is not RAW, because not all the terms are defined in the rules.

Dark Archive

GM Fiat. I would rule that if you spent the actions tying someone up (pinning is not tying up, pinning is a prerequisite) with the intent to render them helpless, then they are helpless. Just succeeded at a pin check, not helpless.

I know of no rule that prevents a medium creature from "pinning" a gargantuan dragon other than low percentage. Exactly how do I, a human, render a multi-ton dragon helpless via grappling?

The loss of Coup de Grace attempts in this game does not make me sad.


For Reference: wrote:
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy.

The CRB puts forward a group of words to further define situations that could be considered 'helpless'. In addition it clarifies what the state of helplessness is in the game. That is, the inability of the character to do anything about his/her condition.

As those words are grouped together within the sentence they take meaning and intention from each other as to similarity of circumstance and/or condition.

The issue is not about the meaning of 'bound' but about the meaning of helplessness.

If a character is not suffering the state of helplessness as defined then a Coup De Grace is not possible. Irrespective of the multiple and various definitions and circumstances of 'bound'.


Just noticed the description for Soul Soap

Soul Soap wrote:
This small bar of coarse gray soap has tiny pieces of ash, coal, or hard earth embedded in it, leaving anyone washed with it as dirty as before. Washing a creature with the soap requires water and takes 1 minute, after which the creature can attempt a new Will saving throw against any hostile ongoing mind-affecting effect currently affecting it. Unwilling creatures must be pinned or otherwise made helpless before they can be washed. The soap is sufficient to wash one creature.

Implies pinned condition = helpless. If this is an isolated reference then it's probably an oversight in the description.


I certainly feel that someone tied up CAN be helpless, but that does not mean that someone tied up IS helpless. I think that is the distinction that needs to be made, and why there are GM's tasked with making that distinction.


I'm always a fan of what's good for the npcs is good for the pcs... Whenever someone wants to argue that the prisoner is unarmed or the enemy is tied up and helpless... I like to point out that if the PLAYER was tied up or disarmed... the battle wouldn't be over. They have spells, back up weapons, escape attempts, biting, kicking anything they can do to NOT die/be taken prisoner...

I treat my characters enemies as if they have the same determination.


"Bound" is not a condition. It is not listed under the list of recognizable conditions that can affect a character. The word is being used as a descriptive in the pinned condition, not reflecting a mechanic of the game.

According to the helpless description, a helpless creature has a Dexterity of 0.

According to the pinned condition, a pinned creature is denied its Dexterity bonus; it does not have a Dexterity of 0.

Therefore, a pinned creature is not helpless, it is pinned. It is vulnerable to sneak attack damage, but not a coup de grace.

Silver Crusade

Jolken Jenkins wrote:
JohnHawkins wrote:
I am fairly certain it does not, you need someone to be unconscious or paralysed for a coup de grace otherwise it would be a standard tactic

I was just curious because in the book's definition of helpless it says "A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy"

What does held imply if not grappled?

Without reading the over 100 posts on this, I suggest 'held' means flunking the saving throw on a 'Hold Person' spell (or any of the other spells of that nature).

I think if a victim is grappled they lose their dex, so can be sneak attacked. Send in the Rogues...

Grand Lodge

Shadowborn wrote:

"Bound" is not a condition. It is not listed under the list of recognizable conditions that can affect a character. The word is being used as a descriptive in the pinned condition, not reflecting a mechanic of the game.

According to the helpless description, a helpless creature has a Dexterity of 0.

According to the pinned condition, a pinned creature is denied its Dexterity bonus; it does not have a Dexterity of 0.

Therefore, a pinned creature is not helpless, it is pinned. It is vulnerable to sneak attack damage, but not a coup de grace.

So you are saying 'bound' =/= 'bound', even when used in similar context. That makes complete sense /sarcasm.

Also, whats to say that 'denied its Dexterity bonus' in the pinned condition wasn't meant as a descriptive for the pinned condition as well? Where the writer understood that the pinned creature's DEX goes to 0 and they lose all of their DEX bonuses.

This would not be the first case of grapple rules being poorly phrased/not fully understood even by the author of the rules.


Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:


Also, whats to say that 'denied its Dexterity bonus' in the pinned condition wasn't meant as a descriptive for the pinned condition as well? Where the writer understood that the pinned creature's DEX goes to 0 and they lose all of their DEX bonuses.

Because being denied your Dexterity bonus is a known mechanical condition, which causes certain types of effects, such as sneak attack, to be applicable. It is a completely different thing than having an effective Dexterity of 0.

If you compare the mechanical effects of the helpless and pinned conditions, they are not identical.


Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:
So you are saying 'bound' =/= 'bound', even when used in similar context.

One guy writes the description of 'helpless' and uses the word bound to indicate that someone tightly tied up is helpless. Another guy writes the description of 'pinned' and uses the word 'bound' as an ill-chosen bit of flavor text. That seems the most likely explanation for the inconsistency.

Grand Lodge

Matthew Downie wrote:
Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:
So you are saying 'bound' =/= 'bound', even when used in similar context.
One guy writes the description of 'helpless' and uses the word bound to indicate that someone tightly tied up is helpless. Another guy writes the description of 'pinned' and uses the word 'bound' as an ill-chosen bit of flavor text. That seems the most likely explanation for the inconsistency.

Ok, I'll play: One guy writes the description of helpless, and uses the phrase 'bound' and 'Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets'. The next guy, seeing that he can save some word space, uses the word 'bound' instead of reiterating 'Helpless' text, and uses the phrase 'Denied their DEX bonus' as reminder text that rogues can take advantage.

Either way, we are arguing the Intention of the writers, as well as their command of the rules and infalibility. Making assumptions or claims of 'likely explainations' is a far cry from getting a ruling or FAQ.

That said, Mark has said he is working on a Grapple Blog post, and that there are a number of things he is going to clarify. Soon.

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