Coup De Grace


Rules Questions

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Guru-Meditation wrote:
Numarak wrote:

Is pinned a condition? If answer is yes, then it is not helpless. If the result of a grapple should have been helpless, devs would have said so; instead they created the pinned condition.

Stating that pinned equates to helpless is a houserule. 2+2 equates 4. Stating that 'O' equates '0' just because they look alike is not true.

I read the rules the same way.

"pinned" and "helpless" are two different conditions. And only 1 of them allows CDGs.

The helpless condition is never applied on it's own.

The helpless condition applies itself whenever any one or more of the following situations happens:

Paralyzed
Held
Bound
Sleeping
Unconscious

You guys are ignoring the fact that the rules say bound creatures are helpless.


You are ignoring the fact that conditions which apply zero dex or the helpless condition are noted in their description, like paralyzed or unconscious.

If pinned made you helpless, they would not have listed a different dex penalty.


Hydromancer wrote:
Guru-Meditation wrote:
Numarak wrote:

Is pinned a condition? If answer is yes, then it is not helpless. If the result of a grapple should have been helpless, devs would have said so; instead they created the pinned condition.

Stating that pinned equates to helpless is a houserule. 2+2 equates 4. Stating that 'O' equates '0' just because they look alike is not true.

I read the rules the same way.

"pinned" and "helpless" are two different conditions. And only 1 of them allows CDGs.

The helpless condition is never applied on it's own.

The helpless condition applies itself whenever any one or more of the following situations happens:

Paralyzed
Held
Bound
Sleeping
Unconscious

You guys are ignoring the fact that the rules say bound creatures are helpless.

Wait, it actually SAYS that somewhere? Cite your source please, I like grapple builds, and if you are correct, this is a game changer.


I'm sorry if I sounded harsh, Hydromancer. I'm good with houserules, there are plenty in every table, but this is a subject discussed on the rules forum and we must try to adjust to RAW.

Put it this way. Imagine you are a developer, and you are designing the game mechanisms for grapple. You decide that there are 2 levels of grapple condition; one less severe that renders you *grappled* and one that renders you *pinned*. If you wanted that the most severe rendered you *helpless* would have been as easy as stating it out instead of inventing a new condition. And as _Ozy_ pointed out, they -the devs- could have stated pinned and helpless, but they didn't. Does this mean you can't interprete it as you do? No, you can, but it is an interpretation of how you understand some words on the description, not how the rule has been spoken out.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

This is an interesting debate. Though I don't think being bound by a pin means you are susceptible to coup de grace, a really great case is being made for it.

Sovereign Court

Numarak wrote:
And as _Ozy_ pointed out, they -the devs- could have stated pinned and helpless, but they didn't. Does this mean you can't interprete it as you do? No, you can, but it is an interpretation of how you understand some words on the description, not how the rule has been spoken out.

Numarak, I agree that grappled and pinned is not helpless, but be careful to assign blame or credit about how this game works to the devs - they did not invent this game, they imported it from D&D 3.5 and made some adjustments. You're "bound" (pun intended :) ) to see some artifacts from that game we all knew and loved here and then. It's also hard for the devs to make rulings on fundamental features of the game that were imported, and I suppose they would have to hold meetings and achieve consensus or vote when they change major parts of the game.

Here's what I *think* RAW says about bound: (emphasis mine)

"Tie Up

If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check."

Therefore, target is bound if she doesn't beat the DC in the first bolded sentence, and she's bound automatically if her CMB is less than the one who tied her up.


I would for sure consider someone who was, say, tied to a mast or a pillar, to be helpless (bound).

Are there rules on getting someone into this state?

Sovereign Court

alexd1976 wrote:

I would for sure consider someone who was, say, tied to a mast or a pillar, to be helpless (bound).

Are there rules on getting someone into this state?

See my post above... :)


That's all fine and dandy, but where is it from? Also, durh, can't believe I missed that, that's what happens when I stay up all night playing awesome PS2 games from a decade ago. :D


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So...

1)Grapple
2)Pin
3)Tie Up
4)Coup de Grace

Even with help, this isn't a game breaking idea. I'm convinced this is how it works, despite Pin stating that someone is 'tightly bound', I think the fact that they still have AC (albeit at a lower level) implies that they are not yet totally helpless.

Even with two people, this is a multiple-round attack, which you can probably use more effective actions in.


There are only two conditions that include adding the helpless condition. Unconscious, and Paralyzed. For anything else to work with a coup de grace, it would have to specifically add the helpless condition to the creature.


Ravingdork wrote:
This is an interesting debate. Though I don't think being bound by a pin means you are susceptible to coup de grace, a really great case is being made for it.

No, a really great case for the rules not be well written and having a lot of hold-over baggage from 3.5 is what's happening here.

While the RAW is dubious leaning towards it being allowed, it is obviously not intentional. This is exactly what happens every time someone comes in screaming about RAW this and RAW that!

It's b.s.


Helpless:

A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier).

Tie Up

If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.

Would you argue that a person who LITERALLY CANNOT ESCAPE (assuming the DC was high enough) met the conditions for being 'bound' or not?

I would argue that if you a)grappled b)pinned c)tied up... then, you could coup de grace.

I mean, if we want to argue semantics and linguistics here, I will point out that gently hugging someone fulfills the linguistically correct requirement for making someone 'held'.

As in, "I held her softly". So... yeah... they also build in some 'wiggle room' by saying "...otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy". So it isn't just a specific set of conditions, those are just examples.


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Seems pretty simple to me....

Helpless means you can be subject to coup de grace

Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

Pinned: A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.

So pinning counts as bound and bound counts as helpless.

So if your ally, in this case a constrictor snake animal companion you can then move adjacent to them one round and deliver a coup de grace the next.

Personally I have basically no issues with this, you have a moderately combat optimized animal companion (being taken out of the fight for 2 rounds as well as who ever is going to be delivering the coup de grace taken out for at least one round.). While the snake has moderately good grappling abilities, much past 4th or 5th he's not going to be able to consistently pin major foes unless they are casters.

Its a neat trick for about 3 or 4 of the beginning levels to over-come enemies, after that he can remove secondary enemies until the party has a chance to dispatch them.

Yes in theory you can make a dangerous grapple mechanic centered character that can take this to a silly level but at that point you're min maxing a full BAB character to depend on something else delivering the final blow and only being able to meat-shield for one enemy at a time.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Hydromancer wrote:
Guru-Meditation wrote:
Numarak wrote:

Is pinned a condition? If answer is yes, then it is not helpless. If the result of a grapple should have been helpless, devs would have said so; instead they created the pinned condition.

Stating that pinned equates to helpless is a houserule. 2+2 equates 4. Stating that 'O' equates '0' just because they look alike is not true.

I read the rules the same way.

"pinned" and "helpless" are two different conditions. And only 1 of them allows CDGs.

The helpless condition is never applied on it's own.

"You trap the target in solid ice 1 inch thick per caster level. If the creature fails its save, it is helpless, but can still breathe (the ice blocks line of effect to the target)."

gagnrath wrote:
Personally I have basically no issues with this, you have a moderately combat optimized animal companion (being taken out of the fight for 2 rounds as well as who ever is going to be delivering the coup de grace taken out for at least one round.).

It takes one round at best, two at worst.


So, does a pinned creature have a zero dex, or does it just lose its dex bonus like it says in the rules?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So are bound and helpless the same thing for the purposes of one's ability to deliver a coup de grace?

Can you still be coup de grace'd if you are bound, but not helpless? What if you are helpless, but not bound?

Seems to me these are the basic questions being asked.


Bound is not listed as a standard condition, implying that normal English is being used. That means we should apply common sense. If RAI was that a pinned creature was also helpless it would presumably say so.

There are many different types of 'bound' in English. If your hands are tied together, you're not helpless. If your hands are bound to a post and your feet to another post and their stretched apart so you can't move, you're helpless.

If someone gives me a hug, I am 'held' but not helpless. If someone pins me down, I am 'bound' but not helpless.


Hydromancer wrote:

You guys are ignoring the fact that the rules say bound creatures are helpless.

That fact only has definitive relevance if you can cite an official reference that defines the Bound Condition.

Oh, wait... there is none.

1. Must a creature have the Helpless Condition in order for a Coup De Grace to be attempted? : Absolutely.

2. Do "Bound" creatures have the Helpless Condition? : Absolutely.

3. Are "Bound" and Tied Up the same? : Possibly... maybe even probably.

4. Are Tied up and Pinned the same? : They are similar, but Tied up is clearly a more restrictive type of Pinned (just like Pinned is a more restrictive type of Grapple), so very likely not true.

The premise that a Pinned opponent is subject to a CdG only works if all four premises are true, and the last one is shaky at best.


if pinned counted as 'bound' (which is not a condition) and therefore counted as helpless, then why would pinned create a -4 AC penalty, when helpless are at dex 0?

Pinned and Helpless are very different conditions.


I think most of us are in agreement on this point with only a few holdouts.


Now, I'm not saying the GM couldn't apply the helpless condition if it was warranted, like sufficiently tied to a sacrificial alter, for instance - but that is not what the 'rules' for pinned or tied up are representing, and not something you are going to be able to do in a round or two of combat while the victim is fighting back. By the rules, all 'tied up' means is the character is pinned by the ropes, instead of by a grappler. They could still try to escape.


Yeah, bound is not a specific condition and sounds like it covers a wide range of restricted movement.


_Ozy_ wrote:
Yeah, bound is not a specific condition and sounds like it covers a wide range of restricted movement.
PRD, Conditions, Bound wrote:
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions.
PRD, Conditions, Helpless wrote:
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy

I'm not pulling rules out of my bum here. These are pulled from the exact texts.

Pinned = bound. This is explicitly called out in the rules.

Bound = helpless. This is also explicitly called out.

If you have to have an effect specifically call out it applies the 'helpless' condition, then going to sleep at night does not make you helpless.

The only reason it gets applied is because the helpless condition calls out 'sleeping' as one of it's triggers.

Think of it as an always-running status checker. Is the character triggering any of the requirements for helpless? If so, then the character is helpless.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

There is no rules definition of 'bound', so you cannot definitively claim that the use of the word in the pinned condition qualifies as equal to the use in the helpless condition. It is certainly reasonable to rule that way, but causes contradictions within the rules. Since there is no bound condition, you cannot check the status of such.


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Bound is not listed as a condition, it's a descriptive word that does not describe an exact mechanical condition.

You can be tied to a post, bound, or have your hands tied together, bound, or have your feet tied together, bound.

Bound is not listed as a condition with specific associated game mechanics.

Go check out the sleep spell.

Quote:
Sleeping creatures are helpless.

Now find, anywhere in the rules, the sentence "pinned creatures are helpless", you won't find it.


Hydromancer wrote:


PRD, Conditions, Bound wrote:
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions.

You got a link to this? I'm not finding a "bound" condition in my CRB or the PRD.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Pinned condition.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Pinned condition.

Looking for "bound" condition. You know, exact text not rules pulled out of someone's bum.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Well, that wasn't what you quoted. Please be more specific next time.


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Hydromancer wrote:
Bound = helpless. This is also explicitly called out.

So if that's true, then the first level spell Animate Rope allows you to CdG someone in one round?

"A creature capable of spellcasting that is bound by this spell must make a concentration check with a DC of 15 + the spell’s level to cast a spell."

So I can cast a Quickened Animate Rope as a Swift Action, then perform the CdG as a Full-Round Action in the *same* round? Sweet! I hope your Touch AC is good...

Or *not* !

Regardless of what combination of five letters you're looking at, all of the other conditions listed under helpless have the same restriction:

Paralyzed : You cannot take *any* physical actions.

Held : You cannot take *any* physical actions.

Sleeping : You cannot take *any* physical actions.

Unconscious : You cannot take *any* physical actions.

Pinned : You can make Grapple or Escape Artist checks to break free and can cast verbal only spells. These are both physical actions.

Whatever "bound" was intended to mean, Pinned is *not* the same thing. You are very restricted in what physical actions you may take, but you still have that option.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Hydromancer wrote:

Pinned = bound. This is explicitly called out in the rules.

Bound = helpless. This is also explicitly called out.

Truck = Vehicle.

Vehicle = Car.

Car =/= Truck

Sorry, that form of logic doesn't really work.


Ravingdork wrote:
Hydromancer wrote:

Pinned = bound. This is explicitly called out in the rules.

Bound = helpless. This is also explicitly called out.

Truck = Vehicle.

Vehicle = Car.

Car =/= Truck

Sorry, that form of logic doesn't really work.

You've given an instance where the commutative logic breaks.

I argue that I haven't.

Either way a FAQ would be greatly appreciated.

It just doesn't follow that the helpless condition would list 'bound' as a trigger if actually being bound doesn't make you helpless.

It would be 100% clearer if the word 'bound' was either absent from the helpless condition or if 'bound' was it's own separate condition rather than a meta condition created by the wording of other rules.

It's the same for sleeping.

As far as I can tell, actually laying down and just going to sleep isn't listed anywhere but it's definitely referenced.

The only thing that mentions it is the spell 'sleep' and that could easily be said to be referring the magical sleep being applied through that spell, as it's rules are all in the context of that spell. If they wanted to say 'sleeping makes you helpless', why not put that in the conditions section under a new condition: 'sleeping'.

Did the dev team think the wording of the helpless condition was clear enough?

Sleep and bound are these 'meta' conditions not actually laid out in the conditions section of the PRD but are referenced by other effects.

This might seem super silly for me to be having an issue over the the terms of sleeping but it doesn't make any sense to have such a huge general rule (sleeping = helpless) tucked away into a spell description that most people might not even find unless they were looking to play an arcane caster.

My issue is while Read as Written does not explicitly say it gives helpless, it very clearly does so indirectly. I think otherwise the first sentence of helpless is confusing and needs to be stricken from the condition entirely.

As I said earlier I lean more on the fence that RAI is 'no you can't CDG from pinned' but I also think it's RAI that you can CDG someone tied up by rope. PFS seems to think so if their website is anything to go on. On inspecting the wordings further, it appears pinned and caught in rope is the same thing mechanically. This is where my hangup is.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Well, that wasn't what you quoted. Please be more specific next time.

Was it not?

Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Hydromancer wrote:


PRD, Conditions, Bound wrote:
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions.
You got a link to this? I'm not finding a "bound" condition in my CRB or the PRD.

Cause it kind of seems like it was...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Did I not link the text you quoted?


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Did I not link the text you quoted?

One of us is clearly not understanding the other.


Hydromancer wrote:

It would be 100% clearer if the word 'bound' was either absent from the helpless condition or if 'bound' was it's own separate condition rather than a meta condition created by the wording of other rules.

It's the same for sleeping.

As far as I can tell, actually laying down and just going to sleep isn't listed anywhere but it's definitely referenced.

The only thing that mentions it is the spell 'sleep' and that could easily be said to be referring the magical sleep being applied through that spell, as it's rules are all in the context of that spell. If they wanted to say 'sleeping makes you helpless', why not put that in the conditions section under a new condition: 'sleeping'.

Did the dev team think the wording of the helpless condition was clear enough?

Sleep and bound are these 'meta' conditions not actually laid out in the conditions section of the PRD but are referenced by other effects.

This might seem super silly for me to be having an issue over the the terms of sleeping but it doesn't make any sense to have such a huge general rule (sleeping = helpless) tucked away into a spell description that most people might not even find unless they were looking to play an arcane caster.

Bound is an ambiguous condition. Sleeping is not.

I can list a whole host of tied-up configurations that you could call 'bound' each with their own allowed ranges of motion. Bound hands, bound feet, body tied to object, hogtied, hobbled, pinned, etc...

Furthermore, as you do note, the rules do specifically call out sleeping as being helpless. They do no such thing for bound. You can complain that the rules aren't where you want them, but given how easy it is to search for things, it's not a very compelling argument.

As to your complaint that they could clean up the wording to avoid confusion, I doubt you'll get anyone to disagree with that statement.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Did I not link the text you quoted?
One of us is clearly not understanding the other.

I find that to be 90% of forum posts.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Did I not link the text you quoted?
One of us is clearly not understanding the other.
I find that to be 90% of forum posts.

And half the fun!


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Grappled: -4 Dexterity
Pinned: Denied Dexterity (not even flatfooted, just denied dexterity)
Tied Up: Helpless (Dexterity of 0)

Pretty simple.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Did I not link the text you quoted?

The referenced text was

"PRD, Conditions, Bound wrote:
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions."
The second line is in the book. The first line isn't.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Then perhaps the first line should be emphasized as the focus.


A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy.

held = past tense of Hold, such as from the Hold Person, Hold Monster

bound = past tense of bind, such as from Dominate Person, Dominate Monster

The Binding spell is also a good example.

Grappled and Pinned conditions are not at the opponent's mercy because it clearly states in both of their descriptions that the target can take action.

That's why Paizo made the Witch Variant Multiclass, so you can slap Slumber on to any class you want. Coup de Grace! Dead, dead, dead...


Pahlok wrote:

Grappled: -4 Dexterity

Pinned: Denied Dexterity (not even flatfooted, just denied dexterity)
Tied Up: Helpless (Dexterity of 0)

Pretty simple.

Except that all being tied up in pathfinder does, mechanically, is maintain the pinned condition without a grappler.


I know lets come up with a dirty word... COMPROMISE.

A pinned person is not helpless, they still have things they can do (try to escape).

A loosely tied up person is not helpless, they still ahve things they can do (try to escape).

A person who is bound so well that even a 20 on Escape Artist or CMB roll is helpless there is nothing they can do even try to escape.

So if a person Grappled somone, then pinned them, and then tied them up AND their grapple was good enough that they had no chance of escaping even on a 20, then I would let them Coup de Grace them.

A FAQ would be nice because RAW can be argued, and while I consider my "compromise" reasonable and quite posisbly RAI others would likley be prone to disagree (though that would give me a +4 in melee against them).


not really what I would deem 'FAQ Candidate'. The helpless condition is what is required to coup de grace (in fact, the helpless condition is where the coup de grace rule is actually sourced). That part of the rule isn't really ambiguous. That said, a GM can apply any condition to any creature at any time, as he feels necessary. That ability of the GM is essentially RAW.

Grand Lodge

Dastardly Finish will allow you to deliver a coup de grace to cowering or stunned creature.

Oh, and if we are looking for "bound", it's right on the PRD:

PRD wrote:
Pinned: A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.

Grand Lodge

Here is the link to the above quote.

You will also find the Helpless Condition there too:

PRD wrote:
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

So, both conditions use the same word to describe the itself.

I don't see why "bound" needs to be a separate Condition to explain how these two Conditions interact and compare.


Because bound is an ambiguous term. There is nothing that says the word bound means the same thing in both texts.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

So, now we debating the meaning of a the word bound, used in similar, but slightly different context?

Has anyone come up with why, the word "bound", would have a different meaning, between these two contexts?

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