Gaseous form vs Alchemist Bomb

[Dr Grecko]

Hey everyone, I'm having trouble trying to find an answer to this. What happens when an alchemist trys to bomb someone in Gaseous Form?

Gaseous Form:

School transmutation; Level alchemist 3, bard 3, magus 3, sorcerer/wizard 3; Domain air 3

CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components S, M/DF (a bit of gauze and a wisp of smoke)

EFFECT
Range touch
Target willing corporeal creature touched
Duration 2 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no

DESCRIPTION
The subject and all its gear become insubstantial, misty, and translucent. Its material armor (including natural armor) becomes worthless, though its size, Dexterity, deflection bonuses, and armor bonuses from force effects still apply. The subject gains DR 10/magic and becomes immune to poison, sneak attacks, and critical hits. It can't attack or cast spells with verbal, somatic, material, or focus components while in gaseous form. This does not rule out the use of certain spells that the subject may have prepared using the feats Silent Spell, Still Spell, and Eschew Materials. The subject also loses supernatural abilities while in gaseous form. If it has a touch spell ready to use, that spell is discharged harmlessly when the gaseous form spell takes effect.

A gaseous creature can't run, but it can fly at a speed of 10 feet and automatically succeeds on all Fly skill checks. It can pass through small holes or narrow openings, even mere cracks, with all it was wearing or holding in its hands, as long as the spell persists. The creature is subject to the effects of wind, and it can't enter water or other liquid. It also can't manipulate objects or activate items, even those carried along with its gaseous form. Continuously active items remain active, though in some cases their effects may be moot.

Are the bombs considered a magic weapon to bypass DR? Do they just do splash damage since the target is insubstantial or do they get the full damage of the attack?

[DM_Blake]

Bombs are fire damage (normally) and therefore they deal energy (fire) damage which is not subject to DR.

Therefore, bombs work normally against a gaseous target.

Although, I would say that the gaseous target won't break the bomb's container - throw a bomb at a cloud of gas and it will pass right through and break when it hits a floor or wall behind the gas. Not sure that's RAW but it makes sense to me. I would therefore expect the alchemist to bomb the floor where the gas is located or, if the gas is flying, it might be impossible to bomb (but alchemists can learn other ways to convert bombs to different attacks, like a cone effect, if they wish).

[Dr Grecko]

DM_Blake wrote:

Bombs are fire damage (normally) and therefore they deal energy (fire) damage which is not subject to DR.

Therefore, bombs work normally against a gaseous target.

Although, I would say that the gaseous target won't break the bomb's container - throw a bomb at a cloud of gas and it will pass right through and break when it hits a floor or wall behind the gas. Not sure that's RAW but it makes sense to me. I would therefore expect the alchemist to bomb the floor where the gas is located or, if the gas is flying, it might be impossible to bomb (but alchemists can learn other ways to convert bombs to different attacks, like a cone effect, if they wish).

I think I have my answer after working it through a bit with what you mentioned above.. A gaseous form can still be attacked by weapons as the spell points out that they still have an AC and although the AC is lower due to no armor, they also gain DR/10 Magic. So even a non magical weapon can still do damage.

The alchemist bombs are considered weapons for the purpose of feats, and are SU weapons meaning they are considered magical. Even so, the fact that they are energy damage as you said, they would not be subject to the DR rule here anyway..

So if I worked this out correctly, they can indeed target the gaseous form and it will do full damage, and not just splash.

[Nefreet]

Dr Grecko wrote:

So if I worked this out correctly, they can indeed target the gaseous form and it will do full damage, and not just splash.

Yup.

Gaseous Form is more for situationally maneuvering through narrow spaces than as a viable use in combat.

Also, vampires.

[Joesi]

DM_Blake wrote:

Although, I would say that the gaseous target won't break the bomb's container - throw a bomb at a cloud of gas and it will pass right through and break when it hits a floor or wall behind the gas. Not sure that's RAW but it makes sense to me. I would therefore expect the alchemist to bomb the floor where the gas is located or, if the gas is flying, it might be impossible to bomb

That's assuming more than the spell describes. If a thrown [non-splash] weapon or shot weapon can deal damage to a gaseous target (and they seemingly can), it means that some force was applied to the target, and any force in one direction is reciprocated in the other direction.

This would mean that when the bomb comes into contact with the gaseous target it would encounter force great enough to detonate it. Any other ruling would essentially make the target immune to ANY sort of attack, since they need to encounter some sort of resistance to be able to deal damage as well (by physics).

[DM_Blake]

Joesi wrote:

That's assuming more than the spell describes.

I somewhat agree. That's why I originally said that it wasn't RAW, just my assumption. So we're on the same page.

Joesi wrote:

it means that some force was applied to the target, and any force in one direction is reciprocated in the other direction

Not necessarily. DR says:

SRD, Universal Monster Rules, Damage Rduction wrote:

A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly

Clearly, DR means different things to different creatures. A dragon has DR because weapons bounce off of its thick scales. A zombie has DR, but not because weapons bounce off of its rotting flesh, but because it just doesn't feel the damage.

So why does a person in gaseous form have DR? Thick scales? Nope. Undead immunities? Nope.

For my take, the gaseous form confers DR because weapons pass right through the gas without hurting the person (or just hurting them less). Which means the gas reciprocates far less force than a fleshy body would. Which means it just might not break a bomb or other thrown object that only does damage when it breaks (alchemist fire, acid flask, etc).

As I said before, that's just my take and it's not supported by RAW.

[Joesi]

That's a good point, but even with DR, there's a minimum damage of 1 non-lethal dealt, and I'd say that it takes less than that to trigger a bomb.

Of course at that point it's combining weird game rules with physics, so it's not like a particularly solid leg to stand on.

[DM_Blake]

Joesi wrote:

with DR, there's a minimum damage of 1 non-lethal dealt

No, I don't think that's true.

You're referring to this:

SRD, Combat, Damage wrote:

Minimum Damage

If penalties reduce the damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of nonlethal damage.

But DR is a not a damage penalty. It's just a number of damage points that a creature can ignore. Penalties affect you (low STR, cursed weapon, shaken, etc.) while DR doesn't affect you; it's an external feature of the monster that is applied after your damage is calculated (after ALL bonuses and penalties are applied) - you either have enough damage and/or it's of the right type to injure the monster or the monster ignores your damage.

SRD, Universal Monster Rules, Damage Reduction wrote:

Damage Reduction (Ex or Su)

A creature with this special quality ignores damage ...

Saying the damage penalty rule applies to DR is like saying it applies to concealment - if I roll a hit but then roll the Concealment miss chance and fail, then does that mean I still do one point of non-lethal damage? No, of course not.

Likewise, if I poke a dragon with my dagger and it bounces harmlessly off the dragon's scales, I don't inflict any damage of any kind; the dragon simply ignores my feeble damage.

[Nefreet]

If DR was a "penalty", and the attacker always dealt at least one damage, then we wouldn't need the FAQ answering whether poison still applies when DR nullifies the attack.