Unarmed Natural Attacks


Rules Questions

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chbgraphicarts wrote:
So unless you plan on sinking 6 levels into Ranger or Slayer, you're not getting Multiattack in PFS ever.

Actually, it takes 10 levels in Ranger!

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Reading.. Reading...

So, basically, one is trying to add talon attacks (re: Unarmed) to the normal natural attacks. Would one be able to Flurry and add the Natural attacks? (Flurry *hit* *Hit* Natural *Claw* *Claw* *Bite*)

My own feeling is that the Monk has some strange rules and is limited by being out of place in the mechanics of the game. The UNCHAINED! Monk does improve his overall stature, but has the same rule wordings as the previous CRB Monk.

To me, if they count as both, then using them counts as both as well, so one would need to use one or the other. (Unarmed vs. claws)

The bite can be used with either, getting a -5 and .5 str bonus.

But it is your campaign, so what the GM feels is best in a home game should take precedence. If he, as I do, feels the Monk is getting short shifted, he may allow the combination of flurry and claws.


You cannot use natural attacks and flurry (you can flurry with a natural attack if you have the right feat) because of rules.

PRD wrote:
A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.

Notice if you were unable to combine unarmed strikes and natural attacks period, then this line becomes redundant.

PRD wrote:
A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

good to know. So we are looking at one extra attack to use along with natural attacks unless a Monk actually spends feats on TWF.

Yuck.


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
(you can flurry with a natural attack if you have the right feat)

That Feat would be Feral Combat Training, which you would apply to 1 natural attack, in the OP's PC's case, either the Bite or the Claws


Just a Guess wrote:
Weirdo wrote:
Just a Guess wrote:

As is pure natural attack builds are strong at low levels and weak at high levels. Nerfing them at low levels would mean they are never strong. So the only way they would be used would be in addition to two-handed attacks. And that is the point at which they are already good, because they just add dpr at no or little cost.

As not all kinds of natural attacks CAN be combined with two-handed weapons it would make those who can't near useless. Like claws and some kinds of slams.

First, I'm not a fan of linear-quadratic balance. If something's strong at low levels and weak at high levels, or vice-versa, that's two separate bugs. I'd rather come up with a second fix to boost natural attacks at high levels than leave them as-is.

Second, my current party is at level 8 and natural weapons guy is still at least holding his own against sword and board guy, depending on whether the enemy has DR and haste is active. When are natural attacks supposed to fall behind? Like many, we usually end campaigns in the level 10-15 range.

Against two-handed weapons they lose their lead at level 6. Sword and board is weak in itself so it is not the best style to compare to.

Ohhhhhh, Just a Guess,

I disagree with you profoundly!

Sword and board builds can be quite powerful indeed, and Natural Attack builds can be the most powerful martial builds in the game!


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Just a Guess wrote:
Weirdo wrote:
Just a Guess wrote:

As is pure natural attack builds are strong at low levels and weak at high levels. Nerfing them at low levels would mean they are never strong. So the only way they would be used would be in addition to two-handed attacks. And that is the point at which they are already good, because they just add dpr at no or little cost.

As not all kinds of natural attacks CAN be combined with two-handed weapons it would make those who can't near useless. Like claws and some kinds of slams.

First, I'm not a fan of linear-quadratic balance. If something's strong at low levels and weak at high levels, or vice-versa, that's two separate bugs. I'd rather come up with a second fix to boost natural attacks at high levels than leave them as-is.

Second, my current party is at level 8 and natural weapons guy is still at least holding his own against sword and board guy, depending on whether the enemy has DR and haste is active. When are natural attacks supposed to fall behind? Like many, we usually end campaigns in the level 10-15 range.

Against two-handed weapons they lose their lead at level 6. Sword and board is weak in itself so it is not the best style to compare to.

Ohhhhhh, Just a Guess,

I disagree with you profoundly!

Sword and board builds can be quite powerful indeed, and Natural Attack builds can be the most powerful martial builds in the game!

Sword and board can be strong with TWF. Because of that it should be mentioned when discussing the sword and board fighting style.

Natural attack builds can be strong when combining it with manufactured weapons or with polymorph spells/effects.


Just a Guess wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Just a Guess wrote:
Weirdo wrote:
Just a Guess wrote:

As is pure natural attack builds are strong at low levels and weak at high levels. Nerfing them at low levels would mean they are never strong. So the only way they would be used would be in addition to two-handed attacks. And that is the point at which they are already good, because they just add dpr at no or little cost.

As not all kinds of natural attacks CAN be combined with two-handed weapons it would make those who can't near useless. Like claws and some kinds of slams.

First, I'm not a fan of linear-quadratic balance. If something's strong at low levels and weak at high levels, or vice-versa, that's two separate bugs. I'd rather come up with a second fix to boost natural attacks at high levels than leave them as-is.

Second, my current party is at level 8 and natural weapons guy is still at least holding his own against sword and board guy, depending on whether the enemy has DR and haste is active. When are natural attacks supposed to fall behind? Like many, we usually end campaigns in the level 10-15 range.

Against two-handed weapons they lose their lead at level 6. Sword and board is weak in itself so it is not the best style to compare to.

Ohhhhhh, Just a Guess,

I disagree with you profoundly!

Sword and board builds can be quite powerful indeed, and Natural Attack builds can be the most powerful martial builds in the game!

Sword and board can be strong with TWF. Because of that it should be mentioned when discussing the sword and board fighting style.

Natural attack builds can be strong when combining it with manufactured weapons or with polymorph spells/effects.

Natural attacks become strong when you have a lot of them and they are primary attacks. 2 claws, a gore, and a bite remain viable for a very long time and is achievable by level 3.


I like to add to natural attacks Feral Combat Training, Monastic Legacy (I multiclass extensively.), and Improved Natural Attack. The damage of the Claws will be 1d8 by level 5, 2d6 by level 7, 2d8 by level 13, and 4d6 by level 21. You get those at lower levels if you are willing to take more than 3 levels in Monk.

I love Snake Fang, an attack of opportunity hair trigger. A PFS character can quite plausibly get 8 attacks/round by level 3, and by level 7, 7 of them will do a base damage of 2d6.

With 1 level in Alchemist, you get Mutagens. I favor Dex: +4 AC instead of +2, +2 Attacks of Opportunity/round! Since there is such a thing as a Shield Alchemal Extract, Alchemists can use a Wand of Shield and in PFS can get one at the cost of just 2 Prestige Points. So that will let you self-buff your AC by +8.

Then I like to gain the Grab and Constrict abilities and wear armor with armor spikes. Now every claw hit becomes a Grapple that does additional Claw damage and additional Armor Spike Damage. Your DPR can break 200 by level 9.

Then what? Iterative Grappling falls into place by level 12. Acquire a Wand of Monstrous Physique and Polymorph into 4 armed Sahaugin. 4 claws all with Grab and Constrict. Polymorphing into a Monstrous Humanoid does not make you lose your gear, so you still have on your Spiked Armor.

Maybe Hamatula Strike and Grabbing Style over the next few levels. After level 12, we must not be talking about a PFS character anymore, so maybe those levels in Alchemist were really levels in Vivisectionist, and maybe take Quick, Great dirty trick to lock in the Sneak Attack damage, say 5 levels in Alchemist and a level in Snakebite Striker Brawler Archetype, that means 4d6 Sneak Attack Damage, not bad.

When it comes to Natural Attack builds, we're talking Beastmass Challenge material, here.


Alchemists don't have spell lists so... no, no Wand of Shield for them without UMD.

"Beastmass Challenge material" isn't really saying much either. The Beastmass is downright easy as it's structured.


kestral287 wrote:

Alchemists don't have spell lists so... no, no Wand of Shield for them without UMD.

"Beastmass Challenge material" isn't really saying much either. The Beastmass is downright easy as it's structured.

Sure they can use Wand of Shield.

Alchemist wrote:
An alchemist can utilize spell-trigger items if the spell appears on his formulae list,

Wands are spell-trigger items.

Wands wrote:
Activation: Wands use the spell trigger activation method,

Shadow Lodge

I'm the GM trying to design encounters so that the natural weapons guy doesn't shred things but the other martials aren't unduly frustrated.

When the enemies have DR 5 the natural weapons guy is about on par with the sword & board. DR 10 makes all the martials sad, especially the ninja who can't deal 10 damage in a hit without sneak attack.

Flight severely limits both the natural weapons and the sword and board guy. The ninja is the only martial with a decent ranged attack (and even then only when using Vanishing Trick to get sneak attack, otherwise it's a flat d6 damage). Flight is also no harder for natural weapons builds to get than manufactured weapon builds, and for some classes it's easier (the alchemist comes to mind).

Pounce tends to be easier to get in natural weapons builds. Druid, beastmorph alchemist, beast totem barbarian (gets claws even if you don't have to use them), claw pounce... not to mention quadrupedal eidolons.

Just a Guess wrote:
Natural attack builds can be strong when combining it with manufactured weapons or with polymorph spells/effects.

Polymorph just gets crazy. Monstrous Physique I is a 3rd level spell that can grant a gargoyle's 4 natural attacks, flight, +2 Str and +2 Natural armour - when a TWF build is still stuck on 2 attacks. The alchemist gets it at 7th level (+5 BAB) and thanks to Mutagen and potentially sneak attack is a more capable melee combatant than a sorc/wiz. The alchemist can also take infusion to hand it out to other party members (like my UAS bloodrager, who would love 4 extra attacks even at -5 each and 1/2 str).


Yeah, my natural attack builds seem to rely on multiple attacks for greater damage. That has advantages and disadvantages, exactly as you, Weirdo, spelled out. The advantage is that things that grant bonus to one of your natural attacks such as strength bonus, Weapon Specialization, AoMF, etc, apply to all your attacks, so the more attacks you have, the better. But Damage Reduction also applies to all your natural attacks, so that short-circuits the natural attack advantage.

The natural attacks character would be well-advised to take precautions. At early levels, my characters carry a variety of weapons, Blunt, Slashing, Piercing, Cold Iron, Alchemal Silver. At higher levels, perhaps Magic Fang, Align Weapon, or maybe just develop as a Grappler. A werewolf may scoff at your claws, but she can still get hogtied.

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