Brawler choosing TWF over BF


Advice

Liberty's Edge

Hello,

I was creating a Brawler character and looking for a bit of advice. I have never used a martial, almost exclusively being a spellcaster in the past.

I am using a goblin(goblin campaign) with a bite attack (Hard head, Big teeth) and I noticed you cannot BF and do your natural attack(bite). But you CAN TWF with unarmed strikes and then use your bite. Since you will always have that 1 extra attack(albeit at a -5) isn't it better for a brawler to use TWF and the bite than to use just BF?

At lvl 5, it'd be:

BF +3/+3
TWF +3/+3/+0

(if I am understanding the mechanics correctly)

I am putting this in advice because I am curious what the benefit to using BF is, it I am giving up an attack every round? Is it just the feat cost for having to grab the TWFing feats?

Am I totally heading down the wrong path?

Thanks in advance for advice, this martial stuff is complex!

DrCoras


The trade off being that you only have two weapon fighting when using brawlers flurry. If you don't use it (to get the bite attack) you'll have to spend a feat to get two weapon fighting.

So you're spending 2 feats to gain an extra attack. But the moment you could gain another with the flurry you'll be dead even without spending yet another feat.

So I guess I'm saying it's a bad investment for a single -5 bite attack.


Starting at 2nd level, a brawler can make a brawler's flurry as a full-attack action. When doing so, a brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat....

It's the "when doing so" that you need to pay attention to there.


The benefit from BF is that you get full str on all attacks and if you use power attack you also get full benefit. With normal TWF you only get Half of both to the ofhand attacks.

Liberty's Edge

@Cavall I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Wouldn't taking TWF just be one feat? Or were you considering down the line with Improved TWF? Since I would have to take that also since I wouldn't be using Brawler's Flurry? I definitely understand what you mean about it being a heavy investment for one attack, but the bonuses to that extra attack seem huge as I get down the line.

@CapDarling Since we have to take goblins, I was going to go with a dex build with piranha strike. And I thought if I did my attacks as Unarmed/Unarmed/Bite with TWF that I'd get full benefit since unarmed never counts as offhand?

And let me just say thank you very much for answering my post and for the advice you guys(or ladies).

Hmm, maybe I should ask if I can just go with another class, this martial stuff is way more complicated than straight spellcasting. It's the same reason I always avoided a Magus!


Brawler's flurry also has the advantage that allows you to 2 hand a weapon and use it for all of the attacks. Each of those attacks would get 1.5x power attack (since that feat is completely separate from the flurry and its strength bonuses; 2 handed is 2 handed)

So you get a total of x3 power attack combined from the 'mainhand' and 'offhand' attacks. Plus, you only need to buy a single weapon, which also puts you ahead of regular TWF.

All those benefits actually makes the brawler's proficiencies a bit unfortunate. The only options they come packaged with for that would be the quarterstaff (which has to deal with being made of wood) and the bayonet (which has aesthetic problems for most, obviously).

Heavy shield is an option too though, and there are a variety of dueling shields that are better described as 'spears with a large cover put to one side'.

If you multiclass, those restrictions obviously disappear rather quicking, since monks get temple swords and any thing with full martial weapons can give you things like a 9 ringed sword.


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DrCoras wrote:

...

@CapDarling Since we have to take goblins, I was going to go with a dex build with piranha strike. And I thought if I did my attacks as Unarmed/Unarmed/Bite with TWF that I'd get full benefit since unarmed never counts as offhand?
...

The never count as of hand is a popular, but creative, reading of the monk unarmed strike rule. The brawler have that as part of BF. So with normal TWF you dont get that. Piranha strike also halvøs the bonus on offhands and secondary natural weapons. I would just go with a normal goblin and use BF. If your GM is sligthly Crazy he May let you take the oversized goblin alternate racial trait that will allow you to be a str based super brawler. But if you can get a amulet with dex to damage the normal goblin brawler will be even more super, just remember to get pummeling style at level 2 and pummeling charge at 8. And the World will be your slimy thing to eat.


Several things of note:

1. Natural Attacks don't use TWF mechanics. They can be added to your full attacks at a -5 penalty, or at a -2 penalty if you have three or more and take the Multiattack feat.

2. You'll end up spending feats in TWF, ITWF, GTWF and Double Slice to get the same benefits you are getting through Brawler's Flurry and use the natural attack. Hardly a good idea.

Quote:
@CapDarling Since we have to take goblins, I was going to go with a dex build with piranha strike. And I thought if I did my attacks as Unarmed/Unarmed/Bite with TWF that I'd get full benefit since unarmed never counts as offhand?

3. I want you to go ahead and find exactly how much attack/accuracy boosters you find in the Brawler. That should tell you just how much a Brawler wants more and more penalties to their attacks.

Then find how many weapon agnostic damage boosts the Brawler gets. That should tell you how profitable it is to stack attacks on a Brawler.

Really, the Brawler, in terms of damage, only wants to use Unarmed Strikes because that's the only scaling damage boost he gets. He already trades off a ton of accuracy for a Flurry (more attacks = more accurate).
I wouldn't pick up Piranha Strike over Weapon Specialization until you've got Brawling armor to really ensure you'll hit.

4. I love Goblins, you probably can tell, but I'd never build a natural attack Goblin Brawler because of all the penalties to that playstyle. Just get Tree Runner or Over-sized Ears and build a regular punchy Brawler Goblin.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

a Brawler actually does not gain 1.5 strength on two-handing a weapon in a flurry.

Brawler's flurry wrote:
A brawler applies her full Strength modifier to her damage rolls for all attacks made with brawler's flurry, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand weapon or a weapon wielded in both hands.

on advice, see if you can get 3 levels of unchained rogue for dex to damage on unarmed strikes.


Bandw2 wrote:

a Brawler actually does not gain 1.5 strength on two-handing a weapon in a flurry.

Brawler's flurry wrote:
A brawler applies her full Strength modifier to her damage rolls for all attacks made with brawler's flurry, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand weapon or a weapon wielded in both hands.
on advice, see if you can get 3 levels of unchained rogue for dex to damage on unarmed strikes.

Yep. But they get power attack, since power attack doesn't care about what your strength bonus on the weapon is. The only question is this: are you wielding a 2 handed weapon or a 1 handed weapon in 2 hands?

If so, then x1.5 power attack. Which is rather nice to get on both hits of a fake TWF. That has, for a long time, been the secret to wracking up monk (and now brawler) damage- use small mechanical benefits like that to full effect.

Liberty's Edge

Awesome advice! I got a no go on oversized goblin, but I am now focusing on the Pummeling style and just unarmed BF at the excellent advice here. Since we are starting at 6, I grabbed piranha and weapon specialization.

I was considering taking 2 levels of monk for moms for the Dragon charge benefits, is that a good idea? It helps will saves and makes it easier to use BF.

One other advice question is kind of something I read differently than another player. For steel breaker, exploit weakness says monk level, but martial training only says you're a monk for feats and items. By my understanding, that means my monk levels don't stack with my brawler levels for the ability, but my buddy was saying they did. It confused me to say the least.

Oh, I did actually have another question. Since I'm using a dex build, is mutagenic brawler a good idea over martial flexibility? I get great extra damage, but I'd lose the step up feats I was planning on taking with flexibility.

Thanks again for all of the great advice! I'm definitely using it.

DrCoras


An interesting thing to do is carry around a long spear and take combat reflexes. As a goblin, you'll have a good dex so you can make plenty of AoO. When it's time to attack, Brawler’s Flurry with kicks! :)

Mutagenic Mauler archetype: Martial flexibility is cool but to get the most out of it, you need to know all the combat feats and their prerequisites. Mutagen from the Mutagenic Mauler is a much more straight forward ability for a first time martial player. Myself, I usually take this as it takes a lot of work to get the most out of Martial flexibility once you can gain more than one feat at a time.

Monk/brawler doesn't stack so most times it's not a good trade to multiclass them. MoMS is an exception with it's ability to use multiple styles at once. Dragon style if nifty for ignoring difficult terrain so it's not bad. If you're going 2 levels, taking it and pummeling charge will work well for you. You'll want the Combat Style Master feat though so you can have both active at the start of combat.


I recommend against Dragon Style for Dexterity builds, since by RAW, it does not affect Dex-to-damage...

Especially if you are a Steel Breaker too. You want as many levels as possible to use Exploit Weakness.

Mutagenic Mauler is very bad for Dexterity builds since it would penalise your Wisdom, and thus your already low Will saves.

Liberty's Edge

That's a great idea! Add 1 Elven branch spear and combat reflexes for great AoOs!

And as wonderful as steel breaker sounds for DR, I'm going to skip it since Pummeling Charge should help me get past DR.

I agree that Mutagenic Mauler seems like the easiest way to go, but I agree with Secret Wizard that hurting my will saves is the last thing I want to do. Especially since my DM loves will save effects.

Secret, I am only taking Dragon Style for the charging terrain and through allies, not the damage. With 8 of us in the party, charging through allies is going to definitely help!

DrCoras


Take Tree Runner as your racial feat and just do air jumps.

You can take the Winding Path Renegade archetype (works best without Steel Breaker) to also get High Jump as a Monk, but with magic items, I'm sure you can pick something up to get better at jump charges.

Of course, with that focus, you might end up going MoMS for Janni Style.


Abyssal bloodragers are pretty good natural attack bloodbaths if you just want natural attacks. But it looks like style stuff if what you're more interested in.


First, if you're going dex, how are you getting dex to damage? Because if you aren't, Mutagen can buff str for damage, get AC and lose INT. This is even better if you are using that reach weapon for AoO since you get 1.5 strength for it's attacks.

If you are getting damage from dex, what weapon is getting it as the options are limited to a single one.

Liberty's Edge

I'm using an agile amulet of mighty fists for my unarmed strikes. I already have weapon finesse as my lvl 1 feat. And a +1 agile elven branch spear can be used for my AoOs.

Im going with dex because of goblin racial adjustments. Highest dex I can have is 22, but highest str I can have is 16 at lvl 1.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

agile amulet and spear sounds very expensive for something that has no potential to overlap... consider dropping one to shore yourself up with other magic items, like a cloak of resistance or a ring of sustenance.

potentially, use your martial what ever(thing that gives you changable feats) to get improved trip and agile maneuvers drop the agile on the spear and use it to trip people.

Liberty's Edge

I can improve my trip ability with Maneuver Training too to make it better. I had picked that spear because it was finessable, but maybe I could use the feat I was going to use on EWP on reach instead and trip with my unarmed attacks?

The only thing I worry about with trip is that I am a small size and that will make it very tough for larger enemies, and I don't want to enlarge because that hurts my dex and attack. I had planned on disarm, sunder and grapple instead.

But reach only works when I'm attacking so now I'm back to square one. I hadn't really planned on worrying about reach as much because pummeling charge would get me to the person right away, but I do see it can be super valuable for AoOs.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

well, i mean this is an AOO, it's a very niche weapon to spend so much on it, yeah you're small which is a problem, and why i said use your interchangable feat on it.

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