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This is my hangover cleric character.
The GM ruled that some hags that I dazed auto-failed their reflex saves against our wizard's fireball, making that fireball far more powerful. However, looking at the Actions in Combat Table, I'm not sure that saves are actions. They're not listed as such.
Granted, the GM's ruling made both my dazing channel and my friend's fireball really powerful in concert. But I am wondering now if his ruling was in line with the actual rules. Not that I have any sympathy for the hags... but I don't like getting advantages that I didn't earn.
Can you guys help me figure out if dazed creatures can in fact save?
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"Dazed
The creature is unable to act normally. A dazed creature can take no actions, but has no penalty to AC.
A dazed condition typically lasts 1 round."
Saves are not listed as an action, and the Dazed entry doesn't say you can't save, thus, you may save while dazed.
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They can make saves. They are not actions.
If someone is completely bound up and a fireball is dropped on them, they still get the saving throw. Why? Because saves ALWAYS have an element of luck to them, as denoted by the dice roll.
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They can make saves. They are not actions.
If someone is completely bound up and a fireball is dropped on them, they still get the saving throw. Why? Because saves ALWAYS have an element of luck to them, as denoted by the dice roll.
Interesting thought though! - While the dice are the element of luck the reflex bonus is an element of skill... You could close your eyes when the fireball drops, and it might help not have them be burned out, but it's nothing compared to jumping behind cover in a dungeon. As a player I could see giving up the dexterity component of the reflex bonus to a save while completely immobile.
Some other sources (Paladin's devine grace, magical items, etc.) would totally still apply. -- But I guess it's all too complicated to figure out to be worth the hasstle. If the system uses any kind of points for failing in interesting or sensical ways, that can be used later to succeed or influence the story in interesting or sensical ways, I'd roll with just the few luck/devine/magic bonuses that I can remember off the top of my head (if any) - or just fail the save voluntarily if it seems unlikely to oneshot me. Already bound afterall.
If you are tied up then you are pinned. Apply the condition appropriately (the case Cheapy brought up) then make the save.
Dazed doesn't say you are flat footed or denied your dexterity so you are not.
It's not hard, it's paying attention to the rules.
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Actually, if you're tied up your not just pinned. It's worse than that. You're helpless. And you dexterity is effectively 0. You have a -5 dexterity modifier (instead of whatever it was). So you would have your Base Reflex Save -5 + 1d20 to make the save.
Anyways, saves are not actions. You pretty much always get to make a save against an effect, unless you choose to forgo the save.
It's funny how many GMs operate under the assumption that a REF save means "jumping out of the way" or "diving to safety". These GMs ofen deny saving throws for stunned, helpless, sleeping, characters, as well as for characters climbing a rope or in a narrow hallway with no place to go, etc.
NOTHING in the rules supports this. Quite the opposite, actually.
For example, Cover gives a +2 REF save which implies that having no cover at all still allows a REF save (if not, there would be nothing to add the +2 to, it would need to say that cover allows a REF save with a +2 bonus - it doesn't say that at all).
Also, why do people not need to dive out of the way for FORT and WILL saves? Could a fighter who gets hit by a giant scorpion's sting dive out of the way to avoid the poison? Could an orc resit a Sleep spell by diving out of the area? No. Of course not. So why should REF be handicapped when the other saves are not?
Finally, do these GMs actually move the figures on the battle mat? "Hey, George, your fighter made his REF save, move your figure 20' to the right because that is where he dove to avoid the fireball." I've never seen that happen, and if it did, suddenly AOE spells are the best battlefield control spells ever - you can just move enemies all over the battlefield! But it doesn't work that way.
Nothing in the RAW says anything like the above. Apparently, you make the REF save by doing absolutely nothing at all - even a sleeping character can make a successful REF save, so he's not diving, leaping, covering his face, turning his head, or anything.
REF is just as passive as FORT and WILL - despite the name.
Much agreement with everyone else. Since you can make a Reflex saving throw in your sleep (literally, with the penalties for being helpless), there is absolutely no rules justification for denying them while under the influence of any condition (barring a hypothetical condition in which the condition itself says that you cannot make saves).
It's funny how many GMs operate under the assumption that a REF save means "jumping out of the way" or "diving to safety". These GMs ofen deny saving throws for stunned, helpless, sleeping, characters, as well as for characters climbing a rope or in a narrow hallway with no place to go, etc.
NOTHING in the rules supports this. Quite the opposite, actually.
For example, Cover gives a +2 REF save which implies that having no cover at all still allows a REF save (if not, there would be nothing to add the +2 to, it would need to say that cover allows a REF save with a +2 bonus - it doesn't say that at all).
Also, why do people not need to dive out of the way for FORT and WILL saves? Could a fighter who gets hit by a giant scorpion's sting dive out of the way to avoid the poison? Could an orc resit a Sleep spell by diving out of the area? No. Of course not. So why should REF be handicapped when the other saves are not?
Finally, do these GMs actually move the figures on the battle mat? "Hey, George, your fighter made his REF save, move your figure 20' to the right because that is where he dove to avoid the fireball." I've never seen that happen, and if it did, suddenly AOE spells are the best battlefield control spells ever - you can just move enemies all over the battlefield! But it doesn't work that way.
Nothing in the RAW says anything like the above. Apparently, you make the REF save by doing absolutely nothing at all - even a sleeping character can make a successful REF save, so he's not diving, leaping, covering his face, turning his head, or anything.
REF is just as passive as FORT and WILL - despite the name.
Yep.
Regardless of how silly this is, that's how it works.If you have evasion, you stand in the drsgon's breath, and come out unscathed, for no apparent reason.
Also, why do people not need to dive out of the way for FORT and WILL saves?
Because they don't rely on Dexterity. Dexterity implies movement - just as Armour Class normally assumes you're trying to move out the way of an attack.
(I agree that you should never deny someone a Reflex save, but that doesn't mean you should never apply a flat-footed or helpless reflex penalty.)
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I hate the dazed condition. It makes no sense. You can't move, but you don't lose dex to AC. Which implies there is no penalty to your Ref save; which makes absolutely no sense, because you cannot move.
Where are you getting this "can't move" business? Dazed means you can't take actions, so you can't intentionally travel from Point A to Point B by spending a move action or whatever, but it's not like you're frozen in place.
When something makes no sense, the first thing to do is to check and see whether you've accidentally just made something up that's causing the problems. ;)
Just remember, a dazed creature can still 5-foot step.
Edit: this is true both ways, in that a 5-foot step is "not an action", and according to the table it is "no action" which is explicitly allowed by the dazed condition.
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A dazed creature can take no actions. Movement in both the game and real life is an action. Only a real perverted understanding of reality would make a dazed condition that allowed some sort of limited movement that does not constitute an action reality. I agree, the rules imply you get a Ref save; the condition and the term "no actions" strongly suggest no movement. If you can't see the ambiguity here, you are intentionally not looking.
Do you have a similar issue with the grappled condition?
Grappled creatures cannot move
"Cannot move" (whether implied in the dazed condition or explicit in the grappled condition) does not mean "frozen like a statue".
the condition and the term "no actions" strongly suggest no movement
No walking long distances, but not 'no movement' as in paralysis. That you don't lose Dex to AC says that in your mentally confused state you can't make any planned or complicated actions, but you can still respond instinctively - or reflexively - to danger.
Actually, if you're tied up your not just pinned. It's worse than that. You're helpless. And you dexterity is effectively 0. You have a -5 dexterity modifier (instead of whatever it was). So you would have your Base Reflex Save -5 + 1d20 to make the save.
Anyways, saves are not actions. You pretty much always get to make a save against an effect, unless you choose to forgo the save.
I also completely disagree that one gets a 5-ft step while dazed unless someone can point me to some relevant text suggestion otherwise.
Sure!
A dazed creature can take no actions
Table: Actions in CombatNo Action
Delay
5-foot step
Since a 5-foot step is "no action", the relevant portion of dazed reads:
"A dazed creature can take 5-foot steps"
There, that's the cheeky version.
A dazed creature can take no actions. Movement in both the game and real life is an action. Only a real perverted understanding of reality would make a dazed condition that allowed some sort of limited movement that does not constitute an action reality. I agree, the rules imply you get a Ref save; the condition and the term "no actions" strongly suggest no movement. If you can't see the ambiguity here, you are intentionally not looking.Do you have a similar issue with the grappled condition?
Grappled creatures cannot move"Cannot move" (whether implied in the dazed condition or explicit in the grappled condition) does not mean "frozen like a statue".No because grappled has a penalty to dexterity. I understand there are subtle distinctions, but I believe dazed makes little sense as it is written, though I don't disagree about how the rules apply to it. I also completely disagree that one gets a 5-ft step while dazed unless someone can point me to some relevant text suggestion otherwise.
I think the dazed condition should be rewritten a bit. It should contain some sort of penalty to dexterity, but there should also be some more immunities. For instance, even freedom of movement does not prevent dazing (whereas it can prevent grapple).
I feel like the reason you can still use reflex is in the flavor as much as the mechanics. Dazed to me is much more a mental effect than a physical one. You aren't impaired in any way, you are just disoriented and thus cannot effectively act (you don't know which way is up). However, in a situation like this, your instincts are still active, and your body is fine, so it's fully possible to react to a situation that you do not need to process mentally (fire bad! dodge!) If the effect in some way inhibits movement then I could see where you're coming from, but as a fully mental effect, I feel it works perfectly as-is.
Also, why do people not need to dive out of the way for FORT and WILL saves?Because they don't rely on Dexterity. Dexterity implies movement - just as Armour Class normally assumes you're trying to move out the way of an attack.
(I agree that you should never deny someone a Reflex save, but that doesn't mean you should never apply a flat-footed or helpless reflex penalty.)
If you are going by the rules it is incorrect. Helpless also takes you to a -5 penalty, and being flat-footed only calls out losing dex to AC.
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A dazed creature can take no actions. Movement in both the game and real life is an action. Only a real perverted understanding of reality would make a dazed condition that allowed some sort of limited movement that does not constitute an action reality. I agree, the rules imply you get a Ref save; the condition and the term "no actions" strongly suggest no movement. If you can't see the ambiguity here, you are intentionally not looking.Do you have a similar issue with the grappled condition?
Grappled creatures cannot move"Cannot move" (whether implied in the dazed condition or explicit in the grappled condition) does not mean "frozen like a statue".No because grappled has a penalty to dexterity. I understand there are subtle distinctions, but I believe dazed makes little sense as it is written, though I don't disagree about how the rules apply to it. I also completely disagree that one gets a 5-ft step while dazed unless someone can point me to some relevant text suggestion otherwise.
I think the dazed condition should be rewritten a bit. It should contain some sort of penalty to dexterity, but there should also be some more immunities. For instance, even freedom of movement does not prevent dazing (whereas it can prevent grapple).
...I'm not at all convinced you understood my post, because yours doesn't make sense as a reply to it.
I am not convinced you read my post or understood it either given your response. Dazed as a condition makes little sense to me as relates to mechanics or flavor. Your post did nothing to dissuade me of that point. Obviously we don't see eye to eye, but you can trust me that I certainly understood the words you wrote; just did not find your logic pertinent to my issue.
I also think permitting 5-ft steps when dazed is also completely confusing. Dazed is just a confusing condition which strikes me as fairly unnecessary and its fluff does not fit congruently in my mind with its mechanics.
You should probably never assume that people not agreeing with your point means they've misunderstood you. Most of the time that is so not the case.
Are you arguing what the rule is or what you think makes sense?
It seems Jiggy is saying how he think the rules work according to dev intent, and you are argument is "well I think the rules would be better like this....".
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Wow, no need to get so defensive and combative, Create Mr. Pitt. I'm just trying to help relieve your "discord in logic", as you put it.
So let me remind you of what you actually said that I originally replied to:
I hate the dazed condition. It makes no sense. You can't move, but you don't lose dex to AC. Which implies there is no penalty to your Ref save; which makes absolutely no sense, because you cannot move. I think this is also true to losing dex to AC.
The issue you describe here is that you cannot move, but suffer no corresponding penalty to DEX-related things (like AC or Reflex). If I assume reasonableness on your part, then I can conclude that when you say "can't move", you mean it in a way that is relevant to your ability to evade harm (AC and Reflex).
So then I replied to you and pointed out that there was nothing about the dazed condition that said you were unable to move in such a way; you added that part yourself. The dazed condition says nothing about not being able to move.
Your response to this was an interesting chain of logic: a dazed character can't take actions, and all "movement" requires actions, therefore a dazed creature "can't move".
Well, now wait a minute. Originally, your "can't move" was the kind of "can't move" that had to do with AC and Reflex. But then in your second post (your first reply directly to me), your "can't move" has transformed into the kind of "can't move" that has to do with spending actions.
Do you normally require PCs to spend actions in order to keep their DEX bonus to AC, or to be able to make Reflex saves without penalty?
Since I'm assuming you're being reasonable, I concluded the answer must be "no". That means that you've smooshed together two very different kinds of "can't move": the kind of "can't move" that results from not being able to take actions (which actually follows from the dazed condition, as you described in your second post), and the kind of "can't move" that has to do with being able to dodge things via AC/Reflex (which does NOT follow from the dazed condition's restriction against taking actions, but was your original complaint).
So I pointed out this possible smooshing of "can't move"s, by giving an explicit example of "cannot move" in the rules that very clearly only means it in one of the two senses: in the sense of "can't try to leave your space", a grappled creature "cannot move". In the sense of your ability to evade harm via AC/Reflex, "cannot move" does not apply to a grappled creature (instead, their "movement" in the AC/Reflex sense is merely hindered a bit).
I thought that showing an example of how "can't move" can mean only half of the jumbled-up mess that was leading to your "discord of logic", that you'd see the difference and realize that the fact that the dazed condition implies one type of "can't move" does NOT mean that it also implies the type of "can't move" that was originally giving you trouble.
In short, you're wrong about what the dazed condition actually means, and you got there by starting with "can't take actions", then concluding "can't initiate travel", then mentally labeling this conclusion as "can't move", then reinterpreting your own label to mean "can't bend/dodge enough to evade harm", and finally, recognizing the dissonance between what the condition actually does and what you managed to stumble into thinking it meant.
Hope that helps clarify what just happened here, and maybe even helps with your "discord of logic". :)
EDIT: Wish I'd seen this before I posted:
Rules should not say "no actions" and ... allow Dex to AC or Ref saves.
Not much that can be said if that's where you're at.
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it just irks me when people on this board think that disagreement just means you haven't understood what a person has said.
It irks you if someone says a disagreement comes from you misunderstanding something, but it's totally fine if you say a disagreement comes from the other person "intentionally not looking"?
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Honestly, I think the discord comes from confusing the effects of the Dazed condition with the effects of the Stunned or Paralyzed conditions.
The creature is unable to act normally. A dazed creature can take no actions, but has no penalty to AC.
A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can't swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares to move through.
A stunned creature drops everything held, can't take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).
Note that, if my understanding is correct, a Dazed creature can still take a 5' step. Can they make AoOs?
Honestly, I think the discord comes from confusing the effects of the Dazed condition with the effects of the Stunned or Paralyzed conditions.
The creature is unable to act normally. A dazed creature can take no actions, but has no penalty to AC.A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can't swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares to move through.A stunned creature drops everything held, can't take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).Note that, if my understanding is correct, a Dazed creature can still take a 5' step. Can they make AoOs?
An AoO is definitionally an attack action.
An AoO is not an attack action. Also if dazed allowing AoO's that depends on whether Paizo is keeping the 3.5 intent or changing it while not changing the words. It deserves an FAQ IMO. For those who are curious it prevented the AoO in 3.5.
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An AoO is not an attack action. Also if dazed allowing AoO's that depends on whether Paizo is keeping the 3.5 intent or changing it while not changing the words. It deserves an FAQ IMO. For those who are curious it prevented the AoO in 3.5.
I would think it prevents it, but an AoO is even less well defined than Delay or 5' step.
So, can a Dezed creature go into Delay. since that, also, is not an action?
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I am pretty sure the intent behind delaying and taking 5ft steps has more to do with the Pathfinder action economy in general rather than the type of action in relation to the dazed condition.
The question that should be being asked is, "could that be an oversight?", and I think the answer is quite clearly yes.
I dont think it would matter if he delayed or not. Per RAI the affect ends on the same initiative it started on. If this leads to a loophole I would not expect any GM to allow it.
My group usually treats a 5 foot adjust as an action, similar to a free action...
Generally, dazed people just stand there for the duration. Even if they could move 5ft, doesn't really affect much. They can't close a door or cast a spell, so whoop de doo.
I think if someone found a way to use a five foot adjust to perform other actions, that loophole would be closed right away.
Kinevon, you asked if a Dazed critter can 'go into a Delay'-absolutely. Delay is not taking actions until a given initiative. Assuming the Daze effect has worn off, they could then act.
Daze does not alter your initiative, nor does it disallow anything other than actions.
Non-actions, not being something affected, can obviously be performed. :D
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Found this in the Core Rolebook.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html
1.
"No Action:
Delay
5-foot step"
2.
"Not an Action: Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don't take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow."
3.
"Miscellaneous Actions
The following actions take a variable amount of time to accomplish or otherwise work differently than other actions.
Take 5-Foot Step
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.
You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.
You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed."
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From: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Dazed
4.
"Dazed
The creature is unable to act normally. A dazed creature can take no actions, but has no penalty to AC.
A dazed condition typically lasts 1 round."
___________
Based on what I found, the first mention about delay and 5-foot stepping indicate that it is "no action". Which would mean you can use it while dazed.
The second quote might apply and strengthen the ruling about 'No action' being no actions or it refers to a group of actions where 5-foot step isn't included.
The third quote has a new label for 5-foot steps 'Miscellaneous Actions'. Whether that is a subcategory under 'No actions' or a renaming attempt for clarification on what sort of category it is, isn't said.
The fourth quote says that 'a dazed creature can take no actions'.
Are 'Miscellaneous Actions' a subcategory under 'No action'? Is it a headcategory for 'no action' or is it a parallel category?
I see I will be making another FAQ today. This one will be on conditions such as dazed and stunned. I would like to know if Paizo has changed the rules from 3.5.
PS: For those of you wondering the words are the same, but sometimes Paizo will change the intent. FAQ coming soon. I will post a link here after I make it.
Just so everyone is clear the actual FAQ question is bolded in my opening statement. The other stuff is just extra information.
Tied up is pinned.Actually, if you're tied up your not just pinned. It's worse than that. You're helpless. And you dexterity is effectively 0. You have a -5 dexterity modifier (instead of whatever it was). So you would have your Base Reflex Save -5 + 1d20 to make the save.
Anyways, saves are not actions. You pretty much always get to make a save against an effect, unless you choose to forgo the save.
"A helpless opponent is someone who is ***bound***, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy." same link. So I guess it depends on how you tie them up?
(Edit: Emphasis added)
Tied up is pinned.Actually, if you're tied up your not just pinned. It's worse than that. You're helpless. And you dexterity is effectively 0. You have a -5 dexterity modifier (instead of whatever it was). So you would have your Base Reflex Save -5 + 1d20 to make the save.
Anyways, saves are not actions. You pretty much always get to make a save against an effect, unless you choose to forgo the save.
"A helpless opponent is someone who is ***bound***, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy." same link. So I guess it depends on how you tie them up?
(Edit: Emphasis added)
From the Glossary:
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
It also says *held* you want to make the argument that grappling renders people helpless too?
Lets look at the Pinned condition:
Pinned: A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.
Wow ***Tightly Bound*** That's even more bound than just bound! Must be worse than helpless...
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the condition and the term "no actions" strongly suggest no movementNo walking long distances, but not 'no movement' as in paralysis. That you don't lose Dex to AC says that in your mentally confused state you can't make any planned or complicated actions, but you can still respond instinctively - or reflexively - to danger.
So, would you say that if you are making a Reflex save, that you are in a Zone of Danger? Or, more concisely, that you are in the DANGER ZONE!
I just realized something...
Attacks of Opportunity and 5 foot adjustments are listed under the listing for Actions...
The category of Action Type that they are doesn't matter.
They are actions.
Whether it is a Free Action action type, or a Non Action action type, they still are actions.
So...