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You cannot kick twice and claw twice in the same round.You absolutely can. This has been covered quite extensively, actually. You can't Punch/Punch/Claw/Claw, but kicks use a different limb.
The only way you can make extra natural weapon attacks with your flurry, is for secondary attacks like a bite.Never mentioned Flurry. That's a different issue entirely, and no, you can't Flurry and Bite in the same round.
You cannot punch/punch/kick/kick. I agree it has been covered extensively, and you cannot do this.
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You cannot punch/punch/kick/kick.You cannot kick twice and claw twice in the same round.You can't Punch/Punch/Claw/Claw, but kicks use a different limb.
The only way you can make extra natural weapon attacks with your flurry, is for secondary attacks like a bite.Never mentioned Flurry. That's a different issue entirely, and no, you can't Flurry and Bite in the same round.
Your replies aren't lining up with what I'm saying.
Of course you can't punch/punch/kick/kick (unless your BAB is high enough). I didn't say you could.
You can claw/claw/kick/kick. This combines two natural attacks with two manufactured weapon attacks, none of which requires the same limb to perform.
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You cannot punch/punch/kick/kick.You cannot kick twice and claw twice in the same round.You can't Punch/Punch/Claw/Claw, but kicks use a different limb.
The only way you can make extra natural weapon attacks with your flurry, is for secondary attacks like a bite.Never mentioned Flurry. That's a different issue entirely, and no, you can't Flurry and Bite in the same round.Your replies aren't lining up with what I'm saying.
Of course you can't punch/punch/kick/kick (unless your BAB is high enough). I didn't say you could.
You can claw/claw/kick/kick. This combines two natural attacks with two manufactured weapon attacks, none of which requires the same limb to perform.
Sorry. I meant that you absolutely cannot, unequivocally, claw/claw/kick/kick. I'll track down my sources sometime after Paizo Con.
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Basically, you don't get an attack with each limb. For all intents and purposes, humanoids get two limbs to attack with each round. Period.I recommend reading this thread. The rules don't support your position. There's some old SKR posts that do, but they were never codified in an FAQ or errata, and the most recent statement from the design team is still that such posts have no meaning and are not official until added to an FAQ or errata. It'd be one thing if the rules were vague and guidance was needed, but there's nothing vague here.
That post by SKR in the thread us what I was looking for. And makes perfect sense.
Your post here makes no sense. While SKRs post may not be official, it certainly is much more official and holds much more weight than random posters.
The rules support SKR.
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It runs contrary to how the rules are actually worded, so it needs to be added to FAQ or errata for it to have any meaning.
The interpretation that you get two extra attacks because you have feet, just because you have natural attacks is ludicrous. The preponderance of the rules and common sense says you cannot do this.
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It runs contrary to how the rules are actually worded, so it needs to be added to FAQ or errata for it to have any meaning. Remember, SKR's posts are explicitly no more official than anyone else's.
No, but if there is a point of contention. I'll go with a designers unofficial interpretation over a group of power player rules lawyers any day of the week.
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Please quote the rule that says so. The thread I linked quoted the relevant rules, and none of them say anything beyond "You cannot use the same limb for a natural attack and a manufactured weapon attack."It runs contrary to how the rules are actually worded, so it needs to be added to FAQ or errata for it to have any meaning.The interpretation that you get two extra attacks because you have feet, just because you have natural attacks is ludicrous. The preponderance of the rules and common sense says you cannot do this.
Then why doesn't Paizo publish your version of a monks stat block?
They should have, for example, temple sword/temple sword/kick/kick. But the stat blocks are never published that way.
The rules do not support allowing extra attacks just because you have improved unarmed attacks and/or natural attacks. The onus is on you to show where the rules explicitly allow this. Not some interpretation that somehow adds attacks because the rules dont explicitly say you can't.
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No I haven't. The only developer post I chose to ignore was the second diagonal for reach clarification with the 10' virtual circle. Glad the FAQ backed me up on that.
99% of the time, I'm going with a developer post over some other poster. Official or not. James Jacobs admits he's not a rules guy, so I consider his posts a well informed and intelligent opinion.
The point is, just because there isn't an FAQ, doesn't mean your interpretation is the only correct one. I suppose neither is mine, I'll grant. But I'll take SKRs word over tours 99% of the time.
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Now replace the TWF human with a TWF tengu, and get rid of the barrel. The tengu can make two unarmed strikes per round (one with the left leg and one with the right leg), and gets to add his three natural attacks as secondary attacks. That's 5 attacks per round, total. Overall, that puts his attack bonuses at –2 kick/–2 kick/–5 bite/–5 claw/–5 claw. This is a legitimate attack routine.
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You ignored SKR's clarification on how the scorpion whip worked which, incidentally, was almost exactly how the recent FAQ clarified it to be.
I dont recall that. I know the scorpion whip was a huge mess before the FAQ though. And nobody really knew how it should work.
Currently, it is different enough from the whip, for there to be a reason to just use a whip. My argument previously, was some interpretations made the whip obsolete. I dont recall where SKR stood on it. But if his interpretation made the whip obsolete, then that was one if the 1% I disagreed with.
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Now replace the TWF human with a TWF tengu, and get rid of the barrel. The tengu can make two unarmed strikes per round (one with the left leg and one with the right leg), and gets to add his three natural attacks as secondary attacks. That's 5 attacks per round, total. Overall, that puts his attack bonuses at –2 kick/–2 kick/–5 bite/–5 claw/–5 claw. This is a legitimate attack routine.
Please link to that, so I can read it in context.
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S I'm even more on the side of ETV than I was before. As SKR contradicts himself. I haven't read the full context, as I'm on lunch at work and can't read 380 posts. But, the fact he was quite vehement that you could not do this in at least on of his posts, at the tables I GM, I'll be going with that interpretation.
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That's not uncommon.
So, what should we do?
Go with the rules we have from the Bestiary, which allow it to happen anyways.
The main point SKR was trying to make, I think, is that the rules should work the same across the board, and weird little things like this should not suddenly add 67% to your action economy.
It is very telling that Paizo published material has no stat blocks that I'm aware of that shows an extra two attacks like you are suggesting.
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During that discussion SKR was operating as the PDT. That's why he responded further down with bolded Q&A's. Another poster ever commented "thank you PDT".
For whatever reason it never made it into the FAQ, which I really wish could have happened.
PDT?
There are a lot of things I wish were FAQd. mark Seifter is doing a good job if catching up on some of the large outstanding questions. So I expect this is somewhere on his future radar.
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Andrew, the problem is that you're going to have to show some sort of evidence that Claw/Claw/Bite/Kick/Kick isn't legal. The burden of proof is on you. Since we both have conflicting posts from a former rules designer, let's call that a wash.
What we're left with is the fact that manufactured weapons can be combined with natural weapons during a (non-Flurry) full attack, so long as they each utilize different limbs.
And, since we know Kicks are a viable use of Unarmed Strikes, that frees up our arms to make claw attacks, just as it allows us to bite or gore if we have those available.
This is a legitimate attack routine.
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Andrew, the problem is that you're going to have to show some sort of evidence that Claw/Claw/Bite/Kick/Kick isn't legal. The burden of proof is on you. Since we both have conflicting posts from a former rules designer, let's call that a wash.
What we're left with is the fact that manufactured weapons can be combined with natural weapons during a (non-Flurry) full attack, so long as they each utilize different limbs.
And, since we know Kicks are a viable use of Unarmed Strikes, that frees up our arms to make claw attacks, just as it allows us to bite or gore if we have those available.
This is a legitimate attack routine.
I'm going to disagree that the onus is on me. The rules are not generally inclusive. They have to explicitly say you can do something in most cases, rather than explicitly disallow.
The onus is on those who think they get two extra attacks based on race, class ability or feat granting some form of natural attack. You'll note that all things granting a bite attack explicitly explain how they can be used as an extra attack. The claw ones do not.
And since flurry is based off two-weapon fighting, it makes no sense that having the two weapon fighting feat would make a monk better at action economy than flurry of blows does. Especially since flurry if blows grows to outstrip two weapon fighting pretty quickly unless more feats are taken.
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I'm curious as to how many Goblin PC's are still alive.
From what I've heard, maybe half of the lot of goblins are still alive. I know that Kyle Baird used to have an extra one, but I think I remember hearing that he put it up for some sort of charity event. I've also heard some unsubstantiated rumors that there might be someone else that has an extra goblin in my area, though it hasn't been anything I've ever really cared to investigate.
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We had an individual, playing a Fetchling Shadow Caller, and claimed the race was once legal, and was now "grandfathered in".AFAIK one table at PaizoCon 2011 and one table at PaizoCon UK 2011 got access to a Fetchling, so that's (max) 14 people. If the individual isn't one of those 14, (s)he shouldn't be playing a Fetchling.
Not true. Every GM at those events can apply the Chronicle as well.
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I'm going to disagree that the onus is on me. The rules are not generally inclusive. They have to explicitly say you can do something in most cases, rather than explicitly disallow.
The Bestiary explicitly allows this combination.
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.
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You ignored SKR's clarification on how the scorpion whip worked which, incidentally, was almost exactly how the recent FAQ clarified it to be.
Jeff, I'll trust that you remember all my posts and my stance in each one. I certainly dont. And frankly, two instances (scorpion whip and 20' reach on diagonals) does not refute my 99% claim.
So can we move past this irrelevancy?
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EDIT:
Andy, Nefreet, Jeff: Do you guys maybe want to take this to the rules forums please, instead of continuing to derail this thread?
My apologies. That's why, when I started this derail, I was using spoilers.
It's already been hashed out in the rules forum, though. That's where our quotes are from. So, we may as well just end it here and now.
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I'm going to disagree that the onus is on me. The rules are not generally inclusive. They have to explicitly say you can do something in most cases, rather than explicitly disallow.The Bestiary explicitly allows this combination.
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.
One last post, and let's move this.
If you want, can you link me to the rules post you create so we can FAQ it?
That rule is not explicit that you get extra attacks just because you are bipedal.
Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic
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Not true. Every GM at those events can apply the Chronicle as well.We had an individual, playing a Fetchling Shadow Caller, and claimed the race was once legal, and was now "grandfathered in".AFAIK one table at PaizoCon 2011 and one table at PaizoCon UK 2011 got access to a Fetchling, so that's (max) 14 people. If the individual isn't one of those 14, (s)he shouldn't be playing a Fetchling.
Ah, really? I GMmed in the UK, so one fetchling coming up! :-)